SFGiants58

MLB: Project 32 - New Dugout Jackets Added

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LOVE these colors for the Phillies! The primary logo is an instant classic and the powder blue alt is my favorite of the entire set. 

 

My only suggestion would be to change the colors of the stars in the wordmark so they contrast with the letters. 

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Both Phillies sets look really nice! I'd agree that you should use the Phillies' current big stripes throughout the set, as well as the P from the wordmark. 

 

I really like the blue & yellow set, and I'm glad you went with a light blue tint on the road. It's just a suggestion but maybe the set would look nice using the throwback's shade of yellow.

 

Once again good work!

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Okay, Pitching Billy Penn (with keystone) may have solved the primary dilemma from the first version. That's a great idea. 

 

As for blue and yellow, I always have trouble associating Philadelphia with Sweden, even though I know the history of the area, because as a midwesterner I primarily associate Swedish America with Minnesota. Even though it makes sense for the team whose name may as well be the Philadelphia Philadelphians to embrace civic imagery, Philadelphia-as-Swedish-colony never feels right. Maybe because people in Philly are so rude. Some Swedes they are.

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13 hours ago, the admiral said:

Okay, Pitching Billy Penn (with keystone) may have solved the primary dilemma from the first version. That's a great idea. 

 

As for blue and yellow, I always have trouble associating Philadelphia with Sweden, even though I know the history of the area, because as a midwesterner I primarily associate Swedish America with Minnesota. Even though it makes sense for the team whose name may as well be the Philadelphia Philadelphians to embrace civic imagery, Philadelphia-as-Swedish-colony never feels right. Maybe because people in Philly are so rude. Some Swedes they are.

 

Thanks! You're right, Pitching Billy Pen (I love that name) looks fantastic in Claret/Light Blue. I'm debating between these two color balances for an update:

 

5DtJ9di.png

 

The one on the left is more consistent with the rest of the set, while the one on the right has better contrast but couldn't be used on the primary home/road uniforms (too much Light Blue). What do you guys think?

 

I too have issues associating Sweden with Philadelphia. While part of that is because Sweden isn't talked about as colonial empire all that much (the Great Northern War isn't taught enough), another part of it is that Swedish Philadelphia has become overshadowed by German/English Philadelphia and the Swedish presence in the Midwest. 

 

13 hours ago, MJD7 said:

Both Phillies sets look really nice! I'd agree that you should use the Phillies' current big stripes throughout the set, as well as the P from the wordmark. 

 

I really like the blue & yellow set, and I'm glad you went with a light blue tint on the road. It's just a suggestion but maybe the set would look nice using the throwback's shade of yellow.

 

Once again good work!

 

Thanks! I like the minimalist stripes and the mismatch, so I think I'll keep them. The big stripes don't jive with the rest of the set, and the mismatch is OK because the "P" is not a jersey insignia. I can see where you're coming from, but those kind of changes don't mesh with the identity's character.

 

You're right about the lighter shade being a bit easier on the eyes. The two shades do compete with each other in my original, and the lighter yellow fixes that.

 

PHI_LogoSheetOption.thumb.png.4d2f58f55643f7194803183dd35c1aa9.png

 

13 hours ago, coco1997 said:

LOVE these colors for the Phillies! The primary logo is an instant classic and the powder blue alt is my favorite of the entire set. 

 

My only suggestion would be to change the colors of the stars in the wordmark so they contrast with the letters. 

 

Thanks! You can see the contrasting stars in the image above.

 

I'm surprised that Pitching Billy Penn has gone over so well. It took a bunch of tries to get it just right. I tried a straight-up drawing of the statue, an Independence Hall logo (from an old Sixers concept of mine), and a couple of scripts to get it right. I think I wound up with the best option.

 

PHI_RoughDrafts.thumb.png.17b2e7b38b2bbd49bb6d95bb737528c9.png

 

With the Pirates, I'm going to be doing something that'll probably be controversial. Don't worry, I'm not changing the black/yellow or dumping the font. I will, however, add a bit of "local character" to the design.

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PITTSBURGH PIRATES, PT. I - Invested in civic quirkiness

 

The Pirates' uniforms don't have many problems, aside from overuse of the crummy black jerseys. The logos, on the other hand, oh boy. The Pirates have never had a primary logo that looked "timeless" (save for a non-outlined version of the cap insignia). The first logo was an illustration, the second one is one of crummiest "cartoon" logos I've ever laid eyes upon, the "Mel Gibson Pirate" is too detailed, the portrait logo is a tad dull, and the modern logo reeks of 1997. The Pirates need a primary that doesn't have an "expiration date" problem like those previous ones. So, I turned to civic iconography. I remember when @the admiral brought the idea to use the crest on the Flag of Pittsburgh as an alternate logo for the Penguins, Pirates, and Steelers. Here is his reasoning:

 

On 11/15/2015 at 2:49 PM, the admiral said:

I respectfully disagree: Pittsburgh sometimes feels like a world unto itself, not quite Midwest and certainly not East Coast, and with all three teams sharing black and yellow and the Pens in particular basing their logo on the confluence of the rivers, I feel like pure civic pride makes for better secondary iconography than anything penguin-related or Pittsburgh-inspired, with the primary already checking both.

I'd want to see the Pirates wear it on their sleeve as well. I don't think the Steelers have the real estate for it. I just think it's a really neat thing.

 

While I didn't want to use the crest wholesale, I did find that the shield offered up an excellent opportunity to give the Pirates a logo with some "Pittsburgh" flavor. The Pittsburgh crest's shape and template formed the base of my new primary. Within the shape, I placed a gold jolly roger with bats (an homage to the Mel Gibson Pirate), a baseball with a tricorn hat, and the classic cap logo. The blue pattern remains at the center, as having logo colors that show up nowhere else on the uniform is a Pittsburgh quirk. I used an image of the Roberto Clemente Bridge instead of the black castle on top, as said bridge is in the backdrop of the PNC Park. It was also my way of incorporating a tribute to the Pirates' most iconic player, without trying to shoehorn "21" into the logo. The secondary is an outlined "P," and the tertiary is a keystone (both the Phillies and Pirates can share) with the crest's jolly roger, the blue pattern, and the date "1887."

 

HHC1bGs.png

 

The uniforms are unchanged, except for one big alteration: they're now vests! These follow the classic cut, not that sleeveless crap the team wore from 2001-08. I've used classic-cut vests on the alternates for the Guardians, Stingrays, Oaks, and both Reds sets. Having vests for primaries can be another Pittsburgh quirk, albeit one that has a base in team history and looks good. It also gets their identity further away from the Giants. To accommodate for the different cut, NOB's are Block Condensed (like my White Sox concept and like what the A's did in the 1960's). I kept the number font, as I like it. The primary is on the sleeves, and the socks have the tri-stripe pattern of the 1960's and the pillbox caps. It works for the team, because of both history and the whole three rivers/Golden Triangle motif. 

 

afFYRKL.png

 

The alternates are pretty standard. I put a cap on their usage, for obvious reasons. The gold vest features the tertiary on the undershirt sleeve (sold with the jersey, BTW) and a double placket stripe (with collar connections). The black jersey (not a sleeveless jersey or vest, unlike the Rockies) has single-color wordmarks, numbers, and NOB's. It's cleaner than the double outline and is consistent with the cap.

 

XuEZOtZ.png

 

These other two would appear only a couple of times a year. The Roberto Clemente Day uniform is my recreation of the 1970-76 home uniform, with the 1973 memorial patch. The other alternate is a pillbox hat (with matching batting helmet) that would appear once in a while. It's the only bit of the 1979 set that should ever see the light again. It also doesn't have Stargell stars in its base form. Stars could appear, but only at the player's discretion. 

 

rCuWoEG.png

 

With this new logo and uniform cut, the Pirates can honor civic iconography and their franchise's history in a way that looks good. C+C is appreciated!

 

For the alternate take, let's black and yellow up the pre-1948 Pirates!

 

P.S. the number models are Roberto Clemente, Dock Ellis, and Vern Law.

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What you definitely got right is that the Pirates have had a logo problem: while the scripts, monogram, and numbers are close to sacrosanct, they've never had good logos. The idea of fusing the Clemente Bridge (a rare case of representing the city and the franchise player) with the coat of arms is inspired and very well done, but unlike the Expos logo, which generically called to mind a certain aesthetic, there's an uncanny valley effect here where it's close enough to the actual coat of arms without being it, and it looks off, as if something belonging to the city is being co-opted too much. Maybe I'm hypersensitive to it because, like you said, I've envisioned that logo as a secondary for all three teams. I like the simplified skull and crossbats, but the baseball wearing a pirate hat doesn't really register as such without the explanation. It's a little too abstract for the rest of the logo and the prevailing Pirates scripts, which have always been detaily.

 

I'm wondering about the keystone as symbol of Pennsylvania and whether it should be the property of the Phillies, Pirates, or both. While I've said Pittsburgh feels like its own little world, and still feel that way (great city, love it, everyone should visit and go on the boats and eat a lot), it also seems like Pittsburgh fandom covers more area of Pennsylvania than Philly does, which spreads into South Jersey and Delaware more than Scranton or Harrisburg. Maybe there's some sort of amicable divorce settlement where the Phils keep the William Penn part of your primary but lose the keystone to the Pirates? Or both can use it, of course.

 

The uniforms, well, I hate vests at the major-league level. If NBA teams shouldn't wear sleeves, MLB teams shouldn't wear vests. But I like the alts and the three stripes on the socks. Did you give any consideration to using Pirates lettering for the player names? Legibility issue?

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14 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

The one on the left is more consistent with the rest of the set, while the one on the right has better contrast but couldn't be used on the primary home/road uniforms (too much Light Blue). What do you guys think?

 

The right: you need the dark color for the intricate details and the sky should be blue.

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I love the fact the vests are back for Pittsburgh & the updated primary looks amazing. I personally love that yellow vest the most though. You don't see coloured vests at all in baseball and this one really pops. 

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I love the vests, and the single-color caps.

 

I might be inclined to go all gold when they wear the gold vests however.

 

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Everything about the Pirates looks top notch, and the new primary and tertiary logos are just terrific. 

 

What if you made the skull and baseball on the primary logo white?

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That is the most perfect primary logo I've ever seen for a baseball team.

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15 hours ago, the admiral said:

 

The right: you need the dark color for the intricate details and the sky should be blue.

 

Completely agree. 

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The Pirates look great! I love the vest look for them, and the black alt is a perfect example of not trying to do too much. I agree with most of @the admiral's points about the logos, particularly about the Pirates generally having more detailed logos. Your ideas are certainly genius, but right now their appearance is a little cartoony for the Bucs.

 

Looking forward to Part II, it sounds like it's going to be a unique one!

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I also don't think you need to decide which Pennsylvania team gets the keystone iconography; the shape of it is close enough to that of the primary shield that I think you should use the shield shape for the tertiary instead.  Also, the jolly roger and the tricorn baseball aren't doing it for me.  The fact they're one color makes them look cartoony, and their curviness contrasts with the rest of the logo.  I really don't like the Pirates wordmark just hanging out underneath it either.  Might I suggest something like this (I realize it sacrifices some of the pirate imagery and is a tad redundant), which integrates the wordmark into the logo better? (Quick and dirty Paint render:)

J4nwmTX.png

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Thanks guys!

 

On 8/25/2017 at 2:45 PM, the admiral said:

What you definitely got right is that the Pirates have had a logo problem: while the scripts, monogram, and numbers are close to sacrosanct, they've never had good logos. The idea of fusing the Clemente Bridge (a rare case of representing the city and the franchise player) with the coat of arms is inspired and very well done, but unlike the Expos logo, which generically called to mind a certain aesthetic, there's an uncanny valley effect here where it's close enough to the actual coat of arms without being it, and it looks off, as if something belonging to the city is being co-opted too much. Maybe I'm hypersensitive to it because, like you said, I've envisioned that logo as a secondary for all three teams. I like the simplified skull and crossbats, but the baseball wearing a pirate hat doesn't really register as such without the explanation. It's a little too abstract for the rest of the logo and the prevailing Pirates scripts, which have always been detaily.

 

Thanks! I get how it could be seen as being a little too close to the crest, but I kind of wanted it that way. I thought the little barbs on the crest's outline and it's overall shape kind of called to mind a pirate aesthetic (the barbs even look like Jolly Roger bones). Those who don't know about the Pittsburgh crest would just think it's some "Pirate-y" image, while those can see the Pittsburgh connection would enjoy the reference. I couldn't get that same effect with a roundel or any other shield shape. 

 

I do agree with both you and @MJD7 that the logos inside it lack a little detail. I was trying to go for a look that would be easier to embroider, but a little more detail and fewer abstract ideas would improve it. I also tried it with more detailed skulls, but those were too hard to embroider/see from a distance. It also gave me too much of a Tampa Bay Buccaneers vibe for my liking. So, in my update, I'll be removing the tricorn hat and adding some details to the skull.

 

Quote

I'm wondering about the keystone as symbol of Pennsylvania and whether it should be the property of the Phillies, Pirates, or both. While I've said Pittsburgh feels like its own little world, and still feel that way (great city, love it, everyone should visit and go on the boats and eat a lot), it also seems like Pittsburgh fandom covers more area of Pennsylvania than Philly does, which spreads into South Jersey and Delaware more than Scranton or Harrisburg. Maybe there's some sort of amicable divorce settlement where the Phils keep the William Penn part of your primary but lose the keystone to the Pirates? Or both can use it, of course.

 

I was a little worried about the overlap, even with different-proportioned keystones. I'd argue that both can use it, since they use it in different contexts (one is a visible primary, the other is a rarely-used tertiary). I've never been to Pittsburgh, but I'd love to go one day. It seems like it would a city that I would like (big but not too big, cool local culture, good university, etc.). 

 

Quote

The uniforms, well, I hate vests at the major-league level. If NBA teams shouldn't wear sleeves, MLB teams shouldn't wear vests. But I like the alts and the three stripes on the socks. Did you give any consideration to using Pirates lettering for the player names? Legibility issue?

 

I had a feeling that vests wouldn't be to everybody's liking. But hey, if one team can pull it off, it's the Pirates. I didn't want to use the Pirates' lettering for NOB's, because of size and legibility reasons. It's the same reason why I'm hesitant to use three-color NOB's. 

 

 

2 hours ago, scottyeagle said:

I also don't think you need to decide which Pennsylvania team gets the keystone iconography; the shape of it is close enough to that of the primary shield that I think you should use the shield shape for the tertiary instead.  Also, the jolly roger and the tricorn baseball aren't doing it for me.  The fact they're one color makes them look cartoony, and their curviness contrasts with the rest of the logo.  I really don't like the Pirates wordmark just hanging out underneath it either.  Might I suggest something like this (I realize it sacrifices some of the pirate imagery and is a tad redundant), which integrates the wordmark into the logo better? (Quick and dirty Paint render:)

(image snip)

 

Thank you. I didn't really see a resemblance between the keystone and the primary shield, hence why I used both. I can see where you're coming from with the curves on the icons in the logo, but the borders of the shield and the bridge's detailing is curvy enough - which makes them work. The one-color mode also helps them follow the pattern set by the Pittsburgh crest (which I wanted to emulate). The lack of detail is, again, me trying to take embroidery/resizing into consideration.

 

The Pirates' wordmark is like the Royals' wordmark, it's only there as a formality and less as an integral part of the logo. I like minimizing the amount of text. Putting the wordmark in the crest loses the "golden triange" imagery I wanted in the design.

 

18 hours ago, coco1997 said:

Everything about the Pirates looks top notch, and the new primary and tertiary logos are just terrific. 

 

What if you made the skull and baseball on the primary logo white?

 

Thanks. I thought about that, but I wanted to match the gold eagle pattern on the Pittsburgh crest. While it may not be accurate, it worked for the design in that application.

 

Anyway, here's an update with a more detailed skull and crossbats and a tricorn-free baseball.

 

DLVknMC.png

 

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Bfj6mOu.png

 

I think that's a bit better, while keeping the spirit of the design intact.

 

Edited by SFGiants58
Deleted attachment

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It also gave me too much of a Tampa Bay Buccaneers vibe for my liking.

I think you hit on the Pirates' logo dilemma here: it'll always be hard not to step on the toes of a team so pirate-y that they've built a pirate ship in their stadium. The Raiders make it a crowded field, too. 

 

Losing the hat turned out to go a long way, good call. 

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22 hours ago, the admiral said:

I think you hit on the Pirates' logo dilemma here: it'll always be hard not to step on the toes of a team so pirate-y that they've built a pirate ship in their stadium. The Raiders make it a crowded field, too. 

 

Losing the hat turned out to go a long way, good call. 

 

Thanks! Yeah, that's always a concern with any pirate-themed team. There's only so much you can do with it.

 

Speaking of the Buccaneers, here's an appearance by Bucco Bruce's cousin!

 

PITTSBURGH PIRATES, PT. II - Hit the wave with Tuscan and Gibson!

 

The Pirates' keystone P is one of the newer "iconic" cap logos. It first appeared in 1948, without any real precedent. Before that, the Pirates used a mix of Tuscan P's (with matching wordmarks), cursive lettering, and block P's. This alternate take will examine what would have happened if the Pirates stuck with the Tuscan P when they switched to black/yellow in 1948.

 

The colors here shift to a lighter yellow (123 C, not 1235 C) and towards yellow/black co-dominance (like red and navy's relationship for the pre-1948 Pirates). I also experimented with modernizing one of the pirate portrait logos, the 1967-86 logo. I added an eye patch, reduced the amount of detail in the design, and adjusted the shading. Here is a comparison with the original. The secondary is an outlined version of the 1923-39 cap logo, and the tertiary is a keystone-themed update of the 1908-1909 "PBC" insignia.

 

gyuMbmz.png

 

The uniforms are nothing too fancy. With the Tuscan font (MLB Tuscan New), I wanted to lay it out in a different way from the Red Sox and Mets. I gave it a wave pattern, something that kind of works with the "seafaring" theme. I figured that since the Pirates had a history of odd font arrangements, it would be in character. I used the UA Tiffany font for numbers and NOB's, as Tiffany letters are a bit more legible than the Pirates' font at NOB size. Northwestern stripes appear on the socks (a little place to insert "golden triangle" imagery). The updated pirate graces the sleeves.

 

EdnxRsH.png

 

The alternates have some unique features. The yellow jersey has a matching cap (a yellow version of the 1970-76 cap), no white outlines, and double trim (mimicking the 1925 Pirates' uniforms). The black alternate features the "PBC" patch, like the 1908-09 set.

 

BBfY33o.png

 

The second group of special event uniforms also have connections to the team's history. The updated pirate graces the chest of a creme alternate with some double trim. Think of it as my take on the 1940-41 uniforms. The pillbox hat from my previous concept returns, with the Tuscan P.

 

dLexrTE.png

 

While I would never want the Pirates to wear these uniforms, I thought it was a worthwhile experiment to see how I could overhaul the Pirates' pre-1948 identity into something almost as distinctive as the keystone set. C+C is appreciated!

 

Up next, the Washington Nationals!

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Love that you brought back and cleaned up the "John Wayne" pirate logo, and the Tuscan wordmarks and numbers suit this identity very well. The "wave" effect on the wordmarks is a really nice touch. In an alternate universe, this would be a modern classic. 

 

The Nationals should be interesting!

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