2017 NFL Season: Then there were Two

[MJWalker45]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

While it wasn't the middle of the season, the Eagles signed Michael Vick who was way more controversial than Kaepernick, and caused way more distractions than he will, and the outrage and distractions (at least the media distractions) lasted a few weeks then mostly went away once the season started.  It really didn't matter.

 

If anything, the distractions can relieve pressure from the other players on the team who are no longer getting asked about every nuance of their game.

 

There is something to be said for signing a guy that feels he should be a starter and forcing him into a backup role - it can cause a bad attitude and chemistry problems - but I don't see that being the case here.

 

If there was collusion, and honestly it's very hard to believe that there wasn't, it was more prior to the season rather than now, since it's not that common to bring in QBs to a new system in the middle of the season. 

 

That being said, why the F not?  I'm sick and tired of everyone pretending that football is some super complicated intellectual sport with systems that require years to master.  Jesus christ - it's all the same, just different words for the formations.  If you're a pro, you can step in and play. Stop it with the coaches that need to work 25 hour days trying to figure out how to isolate a receiver against a linebacker.  Stop it with the complicated systems that take years to learn.  NOne of these guys are geniuses.  A lot of them are below average intelligence.  It comes down to better athletes beating worse ones, and better play calls beating weaker ones.  Any idiot RB knows where the hole is supposed to be, they just need to be athletic enough to hit it or cut back if it's not there.

Suing the league is enough for anyone not to touch him until that's completed.

[JWhiz96]

This year has been "WTF-style" crazy. A few observations from yesterday:

 

The Saints-Lions game was one of the strangest and weirdest games ever.

Patriots fans have no right to complain about refs. Ever.

The Steelers seem to have the labels mixed when it comes to football teams.

The Raiders suck now.

The Broncos laid an unimaginable egg.

The Browns are somehow worse than they were last year.

[PrimalCookie]

9 minutes ago, JWhiz96 said:

This year has been "WTF-style" crazy. A few observations from yesterday:

 

The Saints-Lions game was one of the strangest and weirdest games ever.

Patriots fans have no right to complain about refs. Ever.

The Steelers seem to have the labels mixed when it comes to football teams.

The Raiders suck now.

The Broncos laid an unimaginable egg.

The Browns are somehow worse than they were last year.

And the Giants suck and the Jaguars and Jets (!) are doing good.

[OnWis97]

On the Patriots/Jets play, I felt like that was one of those "whatever the call on the field was" kind of reviews.  

 

Possession-related replays bug me because they always seem to be arbitrary and, of course, tend to favor the high-profile teams.  

 

But let's accept for a moment that the call was correct...I HATE, HATE, HATE the touchback rule for the end-zone fumble.  If that ball goes out of bounds an inch on the "field" side of the pylon, it's Jets ball at the 1-inch line but if it goes one inch further it's a turnover?  It's just so arbitrary.  There has to be a better way.  I've thought this for years.  

 

I suspect that the rule exists because "where are you going to put the ball?"  Couldn't the rule be that if the ball goes out in the end zone it simply returns to the spot where it was last possessed?  

[Tracy Jordan]

22 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Which guy has a better understanding of what the Packers are doing and has some sort of rapport with the receivers/team?

 

 

So you'd roll with Brett Hundley the rest of the season? Both of Green Bay's backup QB have a combined five years of experience and 44 career pass attempts between them. What about the fact that Kaepernick played in a West coast offense under Jim Harbaugh? He has more experience in that offense than Hundley does to this point, and he's significantly more talented. Would you not at least bring him in as a backup in case Hundley continues to struggle?

 

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That would be my answer.  Even though Kaepernick has taken a team to a Super Bowl, he wouldn't be the better option for the 2017 Falcons than Matt Schaub.

 

 

That's hilarious. Kaepernick isn't on an NFL roster because, in your words, teams and scouts have seen a "decline in skills". Then how do you explain why Matt freakin' Schaub still has a job? He's so good that he's managed to be traded/cut by three teams in five years.

[Red Wolf]

5 hours ago, JWhiz96 said:

This year has been "WTF-style" crazy. A few observations from yesterday:

 

The Saints-Lions game was one of the strangest and weirdest games ever.

Patriots fans have no right to complain about refs. Ever.

The Steelers seem to have the labels mixed when it comes to football teams.

The Raiders suck now.

The Broncos laid an unimaginable egg.

The Browns are somehow worse than they were last year.

Not wholly unimaginable. I fully expected there would be games like this from the Broncos where the offense is totally worthless. And the Giants lost each of three of their previous games by less than a touchdown so it's not like they were totally inept. Any given Sunday and all that. 

[HedleyLamarr]

1 hour ago, Tracy Jordan said:

So you'd roll with Brett Hundley the rest of the season? Both of Green Bay's backup QB have a combined five years of experience and 44 career pass attempts between them. What about the fact that Kaepernick played in a West coast offense under Jim Harbaugh? He has more experience in that offense than Hundley does to this point, and he's significantly more talented. Would you not at least bring him in as a backup in case Hundley continues to struggle?

Sure.  Gotta find out if Hundley can do more than just play mop-up duty.  You don't get better if you don't play.  "Continues to struggle"....he's never gotten a real chance to play!  We don't know anything about Hundley.

 

Hundley has more experience playing under Green Bay's system than Kaepernick.  He knows the terminology.  He's thrown to his current corps of receivers.  And apparently the Packers feel the same way.

 

If Hundley fails?  Packers have a fairly young core....it wouldn't be a bad thing if they got some higher draft picks to take advantage of the rest of Rodgers' prime.

 

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That's hilarious. Kaepernick isn't on an NFL roster because, in your words, teams and scouts have seen a "decline in skills". Then how do you explain why Matt freakin' Schaub still has a job? He's so good that he's managed to be traded/cut by three teams in five years.

Yet, a team, a front office that gets paid to make these decisions, felt he's good enough to be competent in case anything happens to Ryan.

 

You're arguing about what-if's when I'm just pointing out the rationale behind what moves are being made.  Where was all this clamoring for Kaepernick as a QB back in October 2015?

[Tracy Jordan]

1 hour ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Sure.  Gotta find out if Hundley can do more than just play mop-up duty.  You don't get better if you don't play.  "Continues to struggle"....he's never gotten a real chance to play!  We don't know anything about Hundley.

 

He threw for 154 yards and three interceptions yesterday. That's why I said "if he continues to struggle." There's a reason he was a fifth round draft pick coming out of UCLA. He has accuracy issues and doesn't see the field very well, as evident by yesterday's performance.

 

1 hour ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Yet, a team, a front office that gets paid to make these decisions, felt he's good enough to be competent in case anything happens to Ryan.

 

You're arguing about what-if's when I'm just pointing out the rationale behind what moves are being made.  Where was all this clamoring for Kaepernick as a QB back in October 2015?

 

Explain the rationale behind the Browns' decision to sign a washed-up RGIII last year but refusing to sign Kaep this year. Why did one of them get a second chance after being dumped by the Skins but the other (who opted out) didn't? I'll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with football-related decision-making. 

 

If Colin Kaepernick had been cut after the 2015 season, he'd have landed with another team. There is no legitimate explanation for why he isn't on a roster right now other than the fact that he peacefully protested during the national anthem and that offended some people, including NFL owners. 

[See Red]

Short term, the rapport with receivers and knowledge of the system is a significant advantage.  Once you get passed a few weeks, though, talent should win out, especially when you're talking about a veteran with Kaepernick's resume.  They should, without a doubt, sign Kaepernick.  Hundley having only attempted, like, 12 passes in his career before Sunday is as much a reason to look outside the organization for a new starting QB as it is a defense of his poor performance.  This one is a no-brainer.

[NeauXone]

In the words of UrinatingTree, "The NFL only wanted to keep the tank on track," in regards to the Jets-Patriots game.

[Tracy Jordan]

So the AFC South is a total toss-up once again. I'd say as long as DeShaun Watson is playing at this level, the Texans are probably the favorites to win the division. I'm not sold on Jacksonville at all and Tennessee has been way too inconsistent so far. Even if Andrew Luck gets back on the field soon it's probably going to be a while before he's back to 100%. 

[HedleyLamarr]

17 hours ago, Tracy Jordan said:

Explain the rationale behind the Browns' decision to sign a washed-up RGIII last year but refusing to sign Kaep this year. Why did one of them get a second chance after being dumped by the Skins but the other (who opted out) didn't? I'll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with football-related decision-making. 

 

If Colin Kaepernick had been cut after the 2015 season, he'd have landed with another team. There is no legitimate explanation for why he isn't on a roster right now other than the fact that he peacefully protested during the national anthem and that offended some people, including NFL owners. 

2016 Browns: Had released what they thought would be their franchise QB (Manziel), drafted Kessler for depth/training camp arm/future backup duty, had McCown (I think) but wasn't sold on him, took low-risk, high-reward chance on RG3.  Unless they struck gold on RG3, they weren't really expecting to compete in 2016.

 

2017 Browns: Acquired future draft picks if they take on veteran QB's contract (Oswiler), put themselves in position to select their next franchise QB (should have been Watson, but is Kizer), acquired Hogan for training camp depth.  Wasn't expecting both to out-perform Oswiler.  Thought the best plan of action is to let the rookie get his feet wet.

 

We know what Kaepernick is.  Super Bowl in 2012, NFC Championship in 2013, 8-8 2014, 3 wins and two demotions in 2015-2016.  The only folks that want Kaepernick to play are fans that seemingly care more about character than content, and whomever in media that's looking to get articles/shows read/watched because using the race card is more sexy than following normal training camp battles, making season predictions, and following a team during the year.  Seattle, who's got about as liberal an owner/team/fan base as any in the NFL, didn't think he was good enough to be signed to their squad...and they actually met with Kaepernick.

 

I can only point out facts and logic and the rationale behind them.  The NFL has long shown that they'll deal with whatever off-field issues a player has if his performance can outweigh it.  And, there's still plenty of other players that have openly protested and talked about protesting in interviews, and they still have jobs.  If you insist on sticking to a conspiracy theory, I can't help but accept that you choose to wander aimlessly in the woods when reason says "here's a trail!".

 

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He threw for 154 yards and three interceptions yesterday. That's why I said "if he continues to struggle." There's a reason he was a fifth round draft pick coming out of UCLA. He has accuracy issues and doesn't see the field very well, as evident by yesterday's performance.

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick, and there were reasons for that.  How's that worked out?

 

It was his first pressure-filled game.  Like I said earlier...he's been doing only mop-up duty and preseason games before this past Sunday.  There's no pressure that equates to being handed the reigns to regular season games for a first place team.

[ninersdd]

It looks like Zeke got a restraining order and will play vs SF on Sunday. The saga continues.......

[Tracy Jordan]

10 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

2016 Browns: Had released what they thought would be their franchise QB (Manziel), drafted Kessler for depth/training camp arm/future backup duty, had McCown (I think) but wasn't sold on him, took low-risk, high-reward chance on RG3.  Unless they struck gold on RG3, they weren't really expecting to compete in 2016.

 

2017 Browns: Acquired future draft picks if they take on veteran QB's contract (Oswiler), put themselves in position to select their next franchise QB (should have been Watson, but is Kizer), acquired Hogan for training camp depth.  Wasn't expecting both to out-perform Oswiler.  Thought the best plan of action is to let the rookie get his feet wet.

 

We know what Kaepernick is.  Super Bowl in 2012, NFC Championship in 2013, 8-8 2014, 3 wins and two demotions in 2015-2016. 

Ah, I see... So Kaepernick is solely to blame for the 49ers futility over the last few years? Interesting. This isn't about character over content. You seem to be the only one here arguing that Kaepernick is so terrible that no NFL team has any reason to sign him, even as a backup. You're completely ignoring the context of the last two years. So let's talk about content...

 

You're right, he did lose his starting job in 2015 before having season-ending shoulder surgery. Statistically, it was the worst season he's played on a team that was already in a severe decline (not his fault that they lost a lot of talent around him between 2014-2015). He came back to training camp in 2016 and Chip Kelly eventually named Blaine Gabbert as the starter. Eventually, Gabbert was benched and Kaepernick re-took the starting job in Week 6. Here's what he did the rest of the year...

 

2016

Games: 12

Starts: 11

Touchdowns: 16

Interceptions: 4

INT %: 1.2

Yards: 2,241

Completion %: 59.2

Rating 90.7

 

Yes, he went 1-10 as a starter. It's kind of hard to win games when your defense ranks dead last in points allowed per game, your running game ranks dead last and your top two receiving weapons are Torrey Smith and Jeremy Kerley (who combined for >1,000 yards). And despite all of this, he still finished with the 6th lowest INT percentage in the entire NFL last season. But yeah, he's not good anymore right? Ryan Fitzpatrick ranked dead last among qualified QBs with a 4.2 INT% last year, and yet he still wound up getting a job with the Buccaneers. I guess it's only fair that Fitzpatrick should get an infinite amount of starting opportunities over his career, but Kaepernick should have to call it quits after a few bad games over a two-year stretch. 

 

Now let's look at Gabbert's numbers as a starter last year:

 

2016

Games: 6

Starts: 5

Touchdowns: 5

Interceptions: 6

Yards: 925

INT %: 3.8

Completion %: 56.9

Rating: 68.4

 

Kaepernick clearly put up better numbers and won the exact same amount of games (1) with the same team around him as Gabbert did in 2016. So naturally, the Cardinals signed Gabbert this offseason. Because who wouldn't want to bring in a former first round draft bust who is 9-31 as a starter to run the team in case of a Carson Palmer injury? Clearly this is not about wins and losses. Also, I like how you gloss over Kaepernick's leading the 49ers to a Super Bowl and an NFC Championship game as if that was no big deal. But as the team goes into a decline, suddenly that 3-16 record matters a lot more huh? It's pretty easy to nitpick his starting record while ignoring how terrible the 49ers roster has been since 2015. I seem to recall Kurt Warner's career was on a downward trend (got benched for Bulger) following a dominant three year stretch from 1999-2001. But you know what, that didn't stop the Giants and later the Cardinals from giving him another opportunity, and look how that turned out for AZ.

 

10 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

The only folks that want Kaepernick to play are fans that seemingly care more about character than content, and whomever in media that's looking to get articles/shows read/watched because using the race card is more sexy than following normal training camp battles, making season predictions, and following a team during the year.

 

I think you're in denial here. This is not about proving some political point, and nobody is playing the race card. FiveThirtyEight did an analysis of this back in August:

 

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And yet Kaepernick doesn’t have a team. It’s obvious Kaepernick is being frozen out for his political opinions, but it’s less apparent how extraordinary it is that a player like him can’t find a team. Back in March, Neil Paine and I wrote about Kaepernick’s situation and noted that it was strange for even a halfway decent quarterback to remain unsigned so deep into free agency. Four months later, it’s no longer merely unusual — it’s practically unheard of.

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/colin-kaepernick-is-not-supposed-to-be-unemployed/

 

10 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Seattle, who's got about as liberal an owner/team/fan base as any in the NFL, didn't think he was good enough to be signed to their squad...and they actually met with Kaepernick.

 

So what? The real issue is why has he only receive a single workout since opting out in March? There were plenty of teams that were in the market for a backup during the offseason and plenty more since the start of the season. The fact that the Packers won't even entertain the thought of inviting him in for a workout and would rather stick with two backups with zero starting experience is stupid. Same goes for the other teams who would rather stick with terrible backups (Raiders, Titans, Rams, Bears, Bills, Ravens, Jets, etc.)

 

10 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

I can only point out facts and logic and the rationale behind them.  The NFL has long shown that they'll deal with whatever off-field issues a player has if his performance can outweigh it.  And, there's still plenty of other players that have openly protested and talked about protesting in interviews, and they still have jobs.  If you insist on sticking to a conspiracy theory, I can't help but accept that you choose to wander aimlessly in the woods when reason says "here's a trail!".

 

Haha, conspiracy theory. I'm pretty sure most people in this thread believe Kaepernick is being blackballed by the NFL and feel that he's better than 90% of the current backups in the league. I think you're doing everything you can to come up with reasons why teams are better off not signing him. I'm not sure that's an argument you can win unless you bring up the so-called "off-field issues" that you feel Kaepernick would bring to the table. It's not like we're talking about Johnny Manziel here. I can't help it if you don't see through the NFL's hypocrisy on this issue. Greg Hardy, Ray Rice (before the tape was leaked), Michael Vick, etc. all received second opportunities despite heavy media scrutiny. It's pretty obvious what this is really about. If a convicted dog killer can sign with a team (who had no immediate need for a QB) just months after being released from prison, then surely Kaepernick should be give the same opportunity yes? 

 

Now if you seriously believe guys like Matt Schaub, Blaine Gabbert, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassel, Ryan Mallet, Scott Tolzien, E.J. Manuel, Tom Savage, Mike Glennon, Brandon Weeden, Mark Sanchez, Kevin Hogan, Brock Osweiller, etc. are all better QBs than Kaepernick, you're delusional. If you can't think of a single NFL team that could utilize his talents as a backup or as a spot-starter, you're delusional. And spare me this notion that front offices always knows whats best because "It's what they get paid to do!!!!!!!" If that were true, the Browns wouldn't be on their 1,000th starting QB since 1999. You seem to think that all these teams have "figured out" Kaepernick's game and that's why he's still unsigned, even though statistically he's still better than all of the jabronis I listed above over the last two years. Stop lying to yourself. 

 

I'm done arguing. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, no matter how outrageous some of them may be. I believe @Rockstar Matt was able to sum up everything I've said much more concisely a few weeks ago:

 

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The fact is that until Kap, there has never been this good of a quarterback, statistically speaking, who's still in his athletic prime, who's still in his 20's, who didn't have a career ending injury (or drug/legal problem) and not been signed by some NFL team the following season after being released. 

 

And furthermore, you cannot convince me that outstanding quarterbacks such as Josh McCown, Ryan Fitzpatrick or Mike Glennon are better players than Kap. Yet, they all either had starting jobs or backup jobs in the NFL despite being god awful the last few seasons. 

 

 

[Quillz]

I don't think there's any question Kaep is right about the collusion (although I will admit I was skeptical at first, see a previous post I made). The problem, as others have stated, is proving it. It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. 

[HedleyLamarr]

48 minutes ago, Tracy Jordan said:

Ah, I see... So Kaepernick is solely to blame for the 49ers futility over the last few years? Interesting. This isn't about character over content. You seem to be the only one here arguing that Kaepernick is so terrible that no NFL team has any reason to sign him, even as a backup. You're completely ignoring the context of the last two years. So let's talk about content...

 

You're right, he did lose his starting job in 2015 before having season-ending shoulder surgery. Statistically, it was the worst season he's played on a team that was going nowhere. He came back to training camp in 2016 and Chip Kelly eventually named Blaine Gabbert as the starter. Eventually, Gabbert was benched and Kaepernick re-took the starting job in Week 6. Here's what he did the rest of the year...

 

Yes, he went 1-10 as a starter. It's kind of hard to win games when your defense ranks dead last in points allowed per game, your running game ranks dead last and your top two receiving weapons are Torrey Smith and Jeremy Kerley (who combined for >1,000 yards). And despite all of this, he still finished with the 6th lowest INT percentage in the entire NFL last season. But yeah, he's not good anymore right? Ryan Fitzpatrick ranked dead last among qualified QBs with a 4.2 INT% last year, and yet he still wound up getting a job with the Buccaneers. I guess it's only fair that Fitzpatrick should get an infinite amount of starting opportunities over his career, but Kaepernick should call it quits after four or five bad games in a two-year stretch.

 

Kaepernick clearly put up better numbers and won the same amount of games (1) as Gabbert did as a starter in 2016. And yet, Gabbert landed a backup job with the Cardinals this offseason. Gabbert is 9-31 as a starter. So clearly this is not about wins and losses.

It may be hard to win games with a bad defense, but the defense can only allow 7 points a drive (well, 8, but I digress).  At some point, you've got to move the ball on offense...not just to keep up, but to give your defense a rest.  If the offense isn't doing that, the QB is going to get the deserved blame for the offense sputtering.  Now it's great if he's not turning the ball over on the first three downs...but if the offense keeps getting to fourth down, that's not really much better than not throwing a pick.  You're still giving the ball to the other team.

 

What do you think is a QB's job...put up stats or put his team in a position to win games?  6th lowest INT% obviously wasn't too beneficial to a 1-10 record.  Having pretty-ish stats sure meant a lot to a QB winning 9% of his starts.  And how much of those stats got piled up due to garbage time and prevent defense?  Other than the Chicago game, where he got pulled in the 3rd quarter where he completed like 1-2 passes for 10 yards.

 

If I told you a QB went 1-10 last season and 3-nearly 20 the past two seasons, would you want him?

 

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So what? The real issue is why did he only receive a single workout? There were plenty of teams that were in the market for a backup during the offseason and plenty more since the start of the season. The fact that the Packers won't even entertain the thought of inviting him in for a workout and would rather stick with two backups with zero starting experience is stupid. Same goes for the other teams who would rather stick with terrible backups (Raiders, Titans, Rams, Bears, Bills, Ravens, Jets, etc.)

About the only chance Kaepernick has of getting signed in-season is if there's a 2016 Browns-like scenario where their first 4 QB's get hurt.  If Kaepernick struggled with new offenses he was under for 2015 and 2016 with the benefit of having OTA's, mini-camps, and training camp....how do you seriously think he'll succeed getting picked up in Week 8 with an offense he likely has no familiarity with?  No coach just picks up a helmet, tosses it to a guy and says "Go get you some".  Hundley's been with the Packers for three seasons now, and the other guy has been there for two.  It's not a stretch to feel they've got the better odds to play better and get wins than a guy sitting on his couch.

 

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Haha, conspiracy theory. I'm pretty sure most people in this thread believe Kaepernick is being blackballed by the NFL and feel that he's a better QB than 90% of the current backups in the league. I think you're doing everything you can to come up with reasons why teams are better off not signing him. I'm not sure that's an argument you can win unless you bring up the so-called "off-field issues" that you feel Kaepernick would bring to the table. I can't help it if you can't see through the NFL's hypocrisy on this issue. Greg Hardy, Ray Rice (before the tape was leaked), Michael Vick, etc.. all received second opportunities despite heavy media scrutiny. It's pretty obvious what this is really about. Now if you really believe guys like Matt Schaub, Blaine Gabbert, Matt Cassel, Ryan Mallet, Scott Tolzien, Brandon Weeden, Mark Sanchez, Kevin Hogan, Brock Osweiller, etc. are all better QBs than Kaepernick, that's fine. The numbers would suggest otherwise, and it's not even close. If a convicted dog killer can sign with a team (who had no immediate need for a QB) just months after being released from prison, why can't Kaepernick be afforded the same opportunity?

I never said they were better.  All I've said is that these individual teams feel these guys fit best with what they're doing.  Reading comprehension is key. 

 

So here's what we do know:

-There's an admission that Kaepernick is not as good as he was when he last made the playoffs back in 2013.

-Kaepernick needs a specific offense and good talent around him to succeed in.

-NFL teams will sign players (of any race) with off-field issues if their play is worth the distraction.

-NFL teams will employ those that openly show they're protesting.

 

To keep insisting that he's being blackballed when others are doing the same thing and are still employed means you're just moving the target and don't want to admit that, well, he just might not be good enough.

[DCarp1231]

Seems like if you're a high profile player for the Patriots or Cowboys you're essentially immune to punishment from the league. You can't convince me otherwise.

[ozzyman314]

1 hour ago, DNAsports said:

Seems like if you're a high profile player for the Patriots or Cowboys you're essentially immune to punishment from the league. You can't convince me otherwise.

Tom Brady would have something to say about that.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

On 10/18/2017 at 7:17 AM, ozzyman314 said:

Tom Brady would have something to say about that.

 

Can you imagine a world where Brady were suspended for four games but his team still went 3-1 and then went on to win the Super Bowl in the greatest comeback of all time, and Boston fans still found a reason to bitch and moan? That would be crazy!

[ozzyman314]

3 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

 

Can you imagine a world where Brady were suspended for four games but his team still went 3-1 and then went on to win the Super Bowl in the greatest comeback of all time, and Boston fans still found a reason to bitch and moan? That would be crazy!

Whose bitching & moaning? 

Just pointing out Facts. 

 

Brady, one of the most high profile players in the League, was indeed punished by Goodell. That's a fact.