Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 4 hours ago, GDAWG said: Wasn't Las Vegas also one of those places where alternative football leagues go and end up dying? It'll be interesting to see how the Raiders do there. And I wonder how Birmingham feels about the fact that Vegas is going to get an NFL team? I highly doubt that the people in Birmingham ever though places like Jacksonville, Nashville and Las Vegas would get NFL teams before they do or even any pro teams for that matter. At some point, you have to wonder whether its the city or the league/team owners. Obviously as demonstrated by many people here in this thread, that the many leagues that prop shop there and folded have ruined their reputation of being a viable market. Jacksonville got an NFL team because of the great support for the Bulls in the USFL, Memphis too with the showboats. Las Vegas is a bit iffy. Looking at the past pro football teams placed, you'll see a trend of either uncompetitive teams, horrible ownership, and/or bad marketing. Vegas has shown great support for the Outlaws of the XFL. The last attempt, the Locos did see steady season ticket holder growth but that did not translate into gameday attendance. It seems interest seemed to slowly dwindle for the Locos and the UFL in general and that the league failed to maintain or generate new interest in their product and stagnated towards the end. I don't believe this is the same situation as in Memphis where once the NFL came, the city was burned from losing the Mad Dogs, Showboats, and Pharaohs all in the span of a few years. This was a almost a decade after the Outlaws. So I'm sticking with the theory that the league failed to keep or generate new interest until I find something else to disprove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sec19Row53 Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 10 hours ago, Wizza said: At some point, you have to wonder whether its the city or the league/team owners. Obviously as demonstrated by many people here in this thread, that the many leagues that prop shop there and folded have ruined their reputation of being a viable market. Jacksonville got an NFL team because of the great support for the Bulls in the USFL, Memphis too with the showboats. Las Vegas is a bit iffy. Looking at the past pro football teams placed, you'll see a trend of either uncompetitive teams, horrible ownership, and/or bad marketing. Vegas has shown great support for the Outlaws of the XFL. The last attempt, the Locos did see steady season ticket holder growth but that did not translate into gameday attendance. It seems interest seemed to slowly dwindle for the Locos and the UFL in general and that the league failed to maintain or generate new interest in their product and stagnated towards the end. I don't believe this is the same situation as in Memphis where once the NFL came, the city was burned from losing the Mad Dogs, Showboats, and Pharaohs all in the span of a few years. This was a almost a decade after the Outlaws. So I'm sticking with the theory that the league failed to keep or generate new interest until I find something else to disprove it. No. They got NFL franchises because someone there had money. It's where I sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBTV Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 Support for a minor league team should never be a factor in evaluation of a city for a major league team. They're two completely separate things. It's foolish to see that 3,000 people in a city of ## size are willing to pay low prices to go to minor league games and then think that 20x that number are willing to pay significantly higher prices (not only for tickets, but parking, beer, etc.) to deal with traffic, lines, security, etc., to support a team - and also that local corporations that pay next-to-nothing to advertise in the minors are willing to pay millions to advertise in the majors. If every other box was checked, I'd have no problem putting a team in a market that failed to support minor-league teams. It could simply be that they didn't see it as significant enough to be worth it to go to games, or that they thought the market was being disrespected by hosting minor league teams vs major. There's a lot of people that aren't fans of the "sport", but rather just certain teams that play it. They're not going to go to minor league games just to see good competition and because they just love to watch great passes and wristers. They just want to wear a jersey and sit with 20k or 70k (depending on sport) cheering for players who are wearing the same jersey. "The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Sec19Row53 said: No. They got NFL franchises because someone there had money. Memphis team was relocated from Houston, nothing to do with local people having the money. No one saw Jax getting a team. Jax didn't have much of an advantage over the other bids of St. Louis, Baltimore, Charlotte, and Memphis. The people behind both bids were pretty equal on footing when it comes to money. Jax was the least likely to get a team due to the size of the market and an outdated gator bowl plus was the group behind the bid, Touchdown Jacksonville!,unable to get a lease for the bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, BringBackTheVet said: Support for a minor league team should never be a factor in evaluation of a city for a major league team. They're two completely separate things. It's foolish to see that 3,000 people in a city of ## size are willing to pay low prices to go to minor league games and then think that 20x that number are willing to pay significantly higher prices (not only for tickets, but parking, beer, etc.) to deal with traffic, lines, security, etc., to support a team - and also that local corporations that pay next-to-nothing to advertise in the minors are willing to pay millions to advertise in the majors. If every other box was checked, I'd have no problem putting a team in a market that failed to support minor-league teams. It could simply be that they didn't see it as significant enough to be worth it to go to games, or that they thought the market was being disrespected by hosting minor league teams vs major. There's a lot of people that aren't fans of the "sport", but rather just certain teams that play it. They're not going to go to minor league games just to see good competition and because they just love to watch great passes and wristers. They just want to wear a jersey and sit with 20k or 70k (depending on sport) cheering for players who are wearing the same jersey. Yes, those are things to consider when deciding to put a major league team in the market. It still is a good, not perfect, indicator to see if a sport could work in the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sec19Row53 Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 56 minutes ago, Wizza said: Memphis team was relocated from Houston, nothing to do with local people having the money. No one saw Jax getting a team. Jax didn't have much of an advantage over the other bids of St. Louis, Baltimore, Charlotte, and Memphis. The people behind both bids were pretty equal on footing when it comes to money. Jax was the least likely to get a team due to the size of the market and an outdated gator bowl plus was the group behind the bid, Touchdown Jacksonville!,unable to get a lease for the bowl. But your statement was that they got franchises because of the fanbase's support for a USFL franchise. Show me one reputable source for that statement. Memphis got the Oilers because Bud Addams had money (and chose to move from Houston). Jacksonville got a franchise because Wayne Weaver had money and a stadium that could hold an NFL team. It's where I sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwabel Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 14 hours ago, Wizza said: At some point, you have to wonder whether its the city or the league/team owners. Obviously as demonstrated by many people here in this thread, that the many leagues that prop shop there and folded have ruined their reputation of being a viable market. Jacksonville got an NFL team because of the great support for the Bulls in the USFL, Memphis too with the showboats. Las Vegas is a bit iffy. Looking at the past pro football teams placed, you'll see a trend of either uncompetitive teams, horrible ownership, and/or bad marketing. Vegas has shown great support for the Outlaws of the XFL. The last attempt, the Locos did see steady season ticket holder growth but that did not translate into gameday attendance. It seems interest seemed to slowly dwindle for the Locos and the UFL in general and that the league failed to maintain or generate new interest in their product and stagnated towards the end. I don't believe this is the same situation as in Memphis where once the NFL came, the city was burned from losing the Mad Dogs, Showboats, and Pharaohs all in the span of a few years. This was a almost a decade after the Outlaws. So I'm sticking with the theory that the league failed to keep or generate new interest until I find something else to disprove it. There's a few incorrect things here. 1-Las Vegas: If the Locos season ticket were up, yet attendance was lower, why not just go by "tickets sold" like all other sports? 2-Memphis: The Oilers moved to Nashville and had planned two seasons in Memphis for the then Coliseum to be built. However, Bud Adams was forced to sublet the Liberty Bowl from those who tried to secure the NFL franchise when Charlotte and Jacksonville were awarded teams. Bud Adams couldn't get the suite revenues as they were given to the Memphis Parks Commission as William Dunavant and Fred Smith STILL have the master lease for the Liberty Bowl as it is for 30 years total, 1991-2021. https://www.memphisflyer.com/backissues/issue431/sport431.htm 3-Jacksonville: St. Louis had ownership issues and Jack Kant Cooke lobbied against an expansion team returning to Baltimore. Plus Touchdown Jacksonville! gave the road team the most guaranteed money, $1MM/game at the time, for the revenue sharing pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Sec19Row53 said: But your statement was that they got franchises because of the fanbase's support for a USFL franchise. Show me one reputable source for that statement. Memphis got the Oilers because Bud Addams had money (and chose to move from Houston). Jacksonville got a franchise because Wayne Weaver had money and a stadium that could hold an NFL team. Memphis was temp for Oilers, they were to move to Nashville after 2. Reading more about the situation, Adams did a number and basically alienated Memphis with his antics. Touchdown Jacksonville got the stadium but Weavers money was not the factor that won the bid. it is a prevailing and generally accepted that the success of the Bulls did at least put Jax on the NFL's radar and they have been used as leverage by other teams for stadiums. So saying the Bulls success didn't directly lead to an NFL franchise is more towards the iffy. 1 hour ago, dfwabel said: There's a few incorrect things here. 1-Las Vegas: If the Locos season ticket were up, yet attendance was lower, why not just go by "tickets sold" like all other sports? 2-Memphis: The Oilers moved to Nashville and had planned two seasons in Memphis for the then Coliseum to be built. However, Bud Adams was forced to sublet the Liberty Bowl from those who tried to secure the NFL franchise when Charlotte and Jacksonville were awarded teams. Bud Adams couldn't get the suite revenues as they were given to the Memphis Parks Commission as William Dunavant and Fred Smith STILL have the master lease for the Liberty Bowl as it is for 30 years total, 1991-2021. https://www.memphisflyer.com/backissues/issue431/sport431.htm 3-Jacksonville: St. Louis had ownership issues and Jack Kant Cooke lobbied against an expansion team returning to Baltimore. Plus Touchdown Jacksonville! gave the road team the most guaranteed money, $1MM/game at the time, for the revenue sharing pool. Was trying to show that Locos had some initial interest but couldn't maintain it. The Oilers never intended to stay in Memphis for long, yes. I'm not sure where you got the subletting thing from. But Bud wore out his welcome with his antics and alienated Memphis Yes, St. Louis had ownership issues. cant find anything bout Cookes lobbying or the guaranteed $1MM/game. Jax had to get a stadium and sell enough seats to get in it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwabel Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Wizza said: Memphis was temp for Oilers, they were to move to Nashville after 2. Reading more about the situation, Adams did a number and basically alienated Memphis with his antics. Touchdown Jacksonville got the stadium but Weavers money was not the factor that won the bid. it is a prevailing and generally accepted that the success of the Bulls did at least put Jax on the NFL's radar and they have been used as leverage by other teams for stadiums. So saying the Bulls success didn't directly lead to an NFL franchise is more towards the iffy. Was trying to show that Locos had some initial interest but couldn't maintain it. The Oilers never intended to stay in Memphis for long, yes. I'm not sure where you got the subletting thing from. But Bud wore out his welcome with his antics and alienated Memphis Yes, St. Louis had ownership issues. cant find anything bout Cookes lobbying or the guaranteed $1MM/game. Jax had to get a stadium and sell enough seats to get in it seems. The Memphis NFL bid was headed by Showboats owner William Dunavant. His lease for the Liberty Bowl was for "Professional Football", and professional football, this Bud Adams had to deal with FedEX CEO Fred Smith had to deal with Dunavant, rather than the city of Memphis (or Shelby County) when the CFL came to town. He has 30 years on that lease for professional football. Fred Smith was paid by the Oilers for the sublease belonging to Dunavant. Source #1: https://books.google.com/books?id=hUCto5BNvwsC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=fred+smith+liberty+bowl+lease&source=bl&ots=OTTSk1usfN&sig=tshdGRiYLN9GThOwSGi3WMDVWvg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjW1IfOx6jYAhUqxoMKHay7CkkQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=fred smith liberty bowl lease&f=false Source #2: https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/features/article/13000226/from-memphis-with-envy The JAX guarantee: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-12-01/sports/9312010110_1_kroenke-group-stan-kroenke-patriots-owner-james-orthwein Quote Jacksonville's single-minded devotion to football and its ability to align the business, banking and government community proved decisive. Weaver's negotiations with the city over stadium renovation and his low-rent agreement enabled him to promise fellow owners a huge visitors' share ranging from $1.1 million the first year to $1.39 by the fifth. And BTW, Touchdown Jacksonville was co-founded by Ron Weaver, Wayne's brother and Wayne was brought in later in the process. But back to Birmingham, or rather not going back to Birmingham, the is no real reason to bring alt-football to a place which has brought fewer and fewer fans after each reboot. It's like putting a restaurant in the same strip mall space again and again thinking it will work, meanwhile the neighborhood has changed over twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sec19Row53 Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Wizza said: it is a prevailing and generally accepted that the success of the Bulls did at least put Jax on the NFL's radar and they have been used as leverage by other teams for stadiums. So saying the Bulls success didn't directly lead to an NFL franchise is more towards the iffy. Upthread it was "Jacksonville got an NFL team because of the great support for the Bulls". Now it's 'prevailing and generally accepted story that the success of the Bulls at least put Jacksonville on the radar'. Those two aren't the same things. First it was the cause, then it was part of the reason. I've seen you as a source for this, but have never seen that mentioned before. I'd again ask for a reputable citation. It's where I sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Sec19Row53 said: Upthread it was "Jacksonville got an NFL team because of the great support for the Bulls". Now it's 'prevailing and generally accepted story that the success of the Bulls at least put Jacksonville on the radar'. Those two aren't the same things. First it was the cause, then it was part of the reason. I've seen you as a source for this, but have never seen that mentioned before. I'd again ask for a reputable citation. you re right, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 2 hours ago, dfwabel said: The Memphis NFL bid was headed by Showboats owner William Dunavant. His lease for the Liberty Bowl was for "Professional Football", and professional football, this Bud Adams had to deal with FedEX CEO Fred Smith had to deal with Dunavant, rather than the city of Memphis (or Shelby County) when the CFL came to town. He has 30 years on that lease for professional football. Fred Smith was paid by the Oilers for the sublease belonging to Dunavant. Source #1: https://books.google.com/books?id=hUCto5BNvwsC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=fred+smith+liberty+bowl+lease&source=bl&ots=OTTSk1usfN&sig=tshdGRiYLN9GThOwSGi3WMDVWvg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjW1IfOx6jYAhUqxoMKHay7CkkQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=fred smith liberty bowl lease&f=false Source #2: https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/features/article/13000226/from-memphis-with-envy The JAX guarantee: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-12-01/sports/9312010110_1_kroenke-group-stan-kroenke-patriots-owner-james-orthwein And BTW, Touchdown Jacksonville was co-founded by Ron Weaver, Wayne's brother and Wayne was brought in later in the process. But back to Birmingham, or rather not going back to Birmingham, the is no real reason to bring alt-football to a place which has brought fewer and fewer fans after each reboot. It's like putting a restaurant in the same strip mall space again and again thinking it will work, meanwhile the neighborhood has changed over twice. thnks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 idk. what. everyhtings going so fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wizza Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 like this is out of noweere and this is prob getting ignored as another internet weirdo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 Yeah. We're done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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