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7 hours ago, GFB said:

Lamar Jackson’s ceiling is not Tyrod Taylor. His ceiling is higher than any QB in this draft with his athleticism and arm. He could be the real-life incarnate of Madden 04’s Michael Vick.

 

Is it likely he reaches those heights? Who knows... but that’s why it’s a CEILING.

 

Um, you do realize that Tyrod Taylor has been statistically one of the most efficient and highest rated QBs in the entire NFL over the last three years right? Comparing Jackson to Taylor is not a knock on him at all. Also, a video game version of Michael Vick and the real-life Michael Vick are two completely different things. And yes, I know what a ceiling is. All of these guys have high ceilings, that's why they were taken in the first round. I mean, I could say that Jackson's ceiling is higher than any QB in the entire history of the NFL including Brady and Manning, but that would probably be a little unrealistic wouldn't it?

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On 4/28/2018 at 7:07 PM, dfwabel said:

One time b!tches

I'm not an Eagles fan but I will defend my Delaware Valley people...that one time was less than 3 months ago. The number of titles is irrelevant. 

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2 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

My point is that there's plenty of guys that don't even get drafted that go on to have good careers.  At least "Mr. Irrelevant" was though of highly enough to be drafted - seems like a degrading and unnecessary label to put on someone.

Exactly. It's not irrelevant to be drafted.

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1 hour ago, Tracy Jordan said:

 

Um, you do realize that Tyrod Taylor has been statistically one of the most efficient and highest rated QBs in the entire NFL over the last three years right? Comparing Jackson to Taylor is not a knock on him at all. Also, a video game version of Michael Vick and the real-life Michael Vick are two completely different things. And yes, I know what a ceiling is. All of these guys have high ceilings, that's why they were taken in the first round. I mean, I could say that Jackson's ceiling is higher than any QB in the entire history of the NFL including Brady and Manning, but that would probably be a little unrealistic wouldn't it?

 

Jackson’s purely physical tools are better than both Manning and Brady (Tom Brady is the one QB who I think maxed out 100% of his potential)... so no, I don’t think it’s crazy to say he has the highest ceiling of any QB, ever. He has more potential than RG3 did as a rookie when he lit the world on fire. It’s going to be the mental aspect of the game (plus his health) that’s going to determine how close he gets to his ceiling.

 

If both Josh Allen and Josh Rosen reach 100% of their potential, Josh Allen will be the better QB because he has better traits, which is why he was drafted first. However, Josh Rosen has the higher floor and is much more likely to reach his ceiling, despite it not being as high as Josh Allen...

 

So Tyrod Taylor is a fine, average to maybe above-average NFL QB, but to suggest that if Lamar Jackson does in fact realize every last ounce of his potential he’ll at best be average to above-average is so mind-numbingly wrong I’m actually impressed.

 

 

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9 hours ago, GFB said:

 

Jackson’s purely physical tools are better than both Manning and Brady (Tom Brady is the one QB who I think maxed out 100% of his potential)... so no, I don’t think it’s crazy to say he has the highest ceiling of any QB, ever. He has more potential than RG3 did as a rookie when he lit the world on fire. It’s going to be the mental aspect of the game (plus his health) that’s going to determine how close he gets to his ceiling.

 

First you said he has the highest ceiling of any QB in this draft. Now you're saying it's possible that he has the highest ceiling of any QB ever? If he was as big as Cam Newton or Andrew Luck and could throw the ball as well as Tom Brady, then I'd agree with you. But he's nowhere near as accurate as those guys were coming out of college, arm strength and athleticism aside.

 

I'm not arguing about just his physical potential. I compared him to Taylor because I believe his statistical ceiling will be somewhere near or at Tyrod's level (~3,000 pass yards, 500+ rushing yards per year) if he does reach his full potential, and that's a pretty big "if". Maybe his ceiling is higher than that, but that's my opinion. I don't see that as being completely unreasonable. Do I think he can put up the same numbers he did in college? No way. He's not as good of a passer as RG3 was in his collegiate career either. I don't think his ceiling is any higher than Baker Mayfield's is. If we're purely talking about athleticism alone then yes, his potential is off the charts. But his overall ceiling is lower, in my opinion, because you can't fix accuracy issues at the NFL level. To me, that's why he fell all the way to pick #32. He's going to be a project just like Josh Allen. (Side note: I would gladly take Lamar Jackson over Josh Allen in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the Bills prefer having mediocre white QBs on their roster.)

 

Quote

If both Josh Allen and Josh Rosen reach 100% of their potential, Josh Allen will be the better QB because he has better traits, which is why he was drafted first. However, Josh Rosen has the higher floor and is much more likely to reach his ceiling, despite it not being as high as Josh Allen...

 

I don't disagree with this.
 

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So Tyrod Taylor is a fine, average to maybe above-average NFL QB, but to suggest that if Lamar Jackson does in fact realize every last ounce of his potential he’ll at best be average to above-average is so mind-numbingly wrong I’m actually impressed.

 

 

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I'm so sorry that I offended you with my Tyrod Taylor comparison. I should have said that his ceiling is somewhere up at the Tom Brady/John Elway/Russell Wilson/Aaron Rodgers/Captain America/Jesus level, maybe even higher.

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Been trying to get Eagles vs Jags in London since they went on sale at 5AM and they're either sold out or TM is getting crushed.  Wonder if it's like that for the other UK games.

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20 hours ago, GFB said:

Lamar Jackson’s ceiling is not Tyrod Taylor. His ceiling is higher than any QB in this draft with his athleticism and arm. He could be the real-life incarnate of Madden 04’s Michael Vick.

 

Is it likely he reaches those heights? Who knows... but that’s why it’s a CEILING.

 

From your lips to God's ears.   *says small, silent prayer* 

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6 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Been trying to get Eagles vs Jags in London since they went on sale at 5AM and they're either sold out or TM is getting crushed.  Wonder if it's like that for the other UK games.

Jags/Eagles is sold out.

Titans/Chargers still has seats remaining.

 

You may want to check if the Eagles are selling travel packages. Last year, the Ravens did with club seats a Saturday night party with former players, including Ed Reed and it was all-inclusive.

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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23374606/agent-says-new-england-patriots-discussing-trading-draft-baker-mayfield

 

Apparently word going around is that Patriots would have Traded up to take Baker Mayfield if Cleveland didn't. 

Yeah, considering all the hype that built up between them & Lamar Jackson, I'm pretty hesitant to believe it. 

 

Still, would have been nice to see that kid have an actual shot in the NFL.  

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8 hours ago, Tracy Jordan said:

 

First you said he has the highest ceiling of any QB in this draft. Now you're saying it's possible that he has the highest ceiling of any QB ever? If he was as big as Cam Newton or Andrew Luck and could throw the ball as well as Tom Brady, then I'd agree with you. But he's nowhere near as accurate as those guys were coming out of college, arm strength and athleticism aside.

1

 

We're talking about prospect ceilings. Tom Brady was absolutely not a blue-chip prospect. Revisionist history is fun, and we all want to look back and say that if Brady were in the draft today, he'd be scouted as a late first round QB, So for a sixth-round pick, he absolutely realized every ounce of his potential. Peyton Manning, on the other hand, was the #1 pick in the draft and projected to be an All-Pro QB. His ceiling was naturally high. But even then, Ryan Leaf was the QB in Manning's draft that was given the title of the highest ceiling. So to be clear, a ceiling is not a projection... so yes, I'll make the case that Lamar Jackson has the highest ceiling for a quarterback prospect ever.


Jackson is one inch shorter than Brady and Luck and two inches shorter than Cam and Peyton (which really means nothing because height is overrated at QB). But he's tall enough as a prospect. He weighs as much as Mayfield and Darnold and can add still add a little weight to his lean frame (he's not maxed out). Scouts will tell you that while his arm strength is not Josh Allen, it's plenty strong enough for the NFL success. 

 

Let's start with his greatest asset (athleticism) and then I'll address his biggest concern (accuracy). His athleticism is unmatched by any NFL prospect, ever. Michael Vick is the only comparable. Consider, Michael Vick ran for 1299 yards over his entire career at Virginia Tech. Jackson ran for over 1500 yards twice and had two seasons of 5,000 total yards. Granted, Frank Beamer had no clue what to do with Michael Vick, and if he were in a spread system today, his numbers would be just as gaudy. Robert Griffin never ran for more than 699 yards at Baylor. If you were building a Madden player and bumped those athletic traits like speed, acceleration, and balance to 99, it would look like Lamar Jackson. 

 

Now, let's talk about that accuracy. Yes, it obviously is the biggest hurdle for Jackson's NFL success and it needs to get better, but let me make a case for why I think he might be able to improve it:

 

1) He's already getting better. His completion percentage improved from 54.7% to 56.2% to 59.1%... That 59% is higher than any completion percentage Michael Vick had in his time at VT or in Atlanta (Vick got over 60% a few times after his comeback). Josh Allen has never shown that sort of improvement in his accuracy at this point in his career. 

 

2) Volume. Jackson attempted 403 passes in 2016 and 430 passes in 2017. Josh Allen attempted only 350 passes in 2016 and a meager 270 attempts in 2017. To improve in completion percentage while also raising the number of times throwing the football is exactly what you want to see. But let's compare him to some other players:

  • Cam Newton completed 66% of his passes at Auburn, but only threw the ball 280 times. 
  • Josh Rosen completed 62% of his passes this season on 450 attempts. Better than Jackson, yes, but not by that much and no one questions his accuracy.
  • Tim Tebow completed 66.9% in 2007, 64.4% in 2008, and 67.8% in 2009. However, he never attempted more than 350 passes in a season.
  • Russell Wilson never completed more than 60% of his passes at NC State. But when he transferred to Wisconsin, he jumped up to 72%. 

3) Age. Jackson declared as a true junior, three years out of high school. To frame this another way, he's only a little older than the age Baker Mayfield was when he started playing at Oklahoma. 

 

4) System. Bobby Petrino's offense at Louisville is highly complex and not suited for padding QB accuracy stats. It's all about isolating routes and making throws downfield, passes which naturally complete at a lower percentage. This is not the spread/air-raid Baylor offense that allowed RGII to complete 72% of his 402 pass attempts or the up-tempo spread offense Deshaun Watson was in at Clemson... those offenses are built on getting easy throws and yards and taking your deep shots when they are presented to you. 

 

Here was Jackson's passing chart at Louisville: 

 

DW_ckDWVQAApb2P.jpg

 

Compare the amount deep passes of 20+ yards down the field as there are intermediate throws 10-19 yards downfield. Also, only 38 attempts behind the line of scrimmage. Now look at Kelly Bryant's chart from Clemson's offense this season:

 

Kelly-Bryant-2017-pass-chart.png

 

Jackson attempted to 107 intermediate passes compared to 72 deep passes (almost a 4:3 ratio). Bryant attempted 81 intermediate passes to 43 deep passes (2:1 ratio) and 69 behind the line of scrimmage. Again, this is not a comparison between Jackson and Bryant, but a comparison of the systems they were in and how it affects accuracy stats.  So while he does need to work on his accuracy, his age and a better offense at focused on getting him easier throws will also help his accuracy improve. 

 

When you take in all those factors, I don't think it's crazy to look at Lamar Jackson and potentially see a better-passing of Michael Vick or a more-explosive Cam Newton... I believe that he does have all the tools to have the highest ceiling of any QB prospect, ever.  

 

My projection is going to be Atlanta-era Michael Vick. An absolutely electric playmaker at QB, but will struggle with accuracy and fitting into an offense that may be a poor fit for his gifts.

 

Quote

I'm not arguing about just his physical potential. I compared him to Taylor because I believe his statistical ceiling will be somewhere near or at Tyrod's level (~3,000 pass yards, 500+ rushing yards per year) if he does reach his full potential, and that's a pretty big "if". Maybe his ceiling is higher than that, but that's my opinion. I don't see that as being completely unreasonable. Do I think he can put up the same numbers he did in college? No way. He's not as good of a passer as RG3 was in his collegiate career either. I don't think his ceiling is any higher than Baker Mayfield's is. If we're purely talking about athleticism alone then yes, his potential is off the charts. But his overall ceiling is lower, in my opinion, because you can't fix accuracy issues at the NFL level. To me, that's why he fell all the way to pick #32. He's going to be a project just like Josh Allen. (Side note: I would gladly take Lamar Jackson over Josh Allen in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the Bills prefer having mediocre white QBs on their roster.)

 

 

Here's the main point, so read carefully:

 

I don't have a problem with you projecting him to produce stats at a Tyrod Taylor level. You obviously have your doubts about Jackson and his accuracy, like myself, scouts, and many teams do, which is why he was picked at the end of the first round. Do I believe Lamar Jackson will produce a season of 5000 total yards and 50 TDs in the NFL like he did in college? Most likely, no. However, Tyrod Taylor's best season he threw for 3000 yards, ran for 500 yards, and had 24 total TDs. What you're saying is that if everything breaks Lamar Jackson's way, if his accuracy continues to improve, if the Ravens' coaching staff develops an offense to his unique talents and surround him with playmakers, if he stays healthy, and if he develops mentally to run an offense like a Cam Newton or Aaron Rodgers... his statistical ceiling is Tyrod Taylor. That's absolutely bat:censored: crazy to me! If everything breaks Lamar Jackson's way, he'll break the NFL as we know it. 

 

Your projection is fine, but projections are about likelihood. Ceilings all are about potential, and no one I can remember has more natural potential than Lamar Jackson.

 

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I'm so sorry that I offended you with my Tyrod Taylor comparison. I should have said that his ceiling is somewhere up at the Tom Brady/John Elway/Russell Wilson/Aaron Rodgers/Captain America/Jesus level, maybe even higher.

 

 

Hey, now you're catching on. 

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4 hours ago, dfwabel said:

Jags/Eagles is sold out.

Titans/Chargers still has seats remaining.

 

You may want to check if the Eagles are selling travel packages. Last year, the Ravens did with club seats a Saturday night party with former players, including Ed Reed and it was all-inclusive.

 

I don’t do packages or tour groups or anything Like that. 

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Man, this takes serious balls.

 

https://m.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2018/05/03/the-browns-are-already-talking-about-a-new-stadium-or-major-renovations

 

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The Cleveland Browns have begun long-term planning and study internally, along with informal conversations with city officials and civic leaders, about a new football stadium in downtown Cleveland or major renovations...

 

The team's current lease at FirstEnergy Stadium, which was hurriedly approved and built to welcome the expansion-era Browns in 1999, ends in 2029. The facility, paid for by a sin tax, is not exactly considered a great or even average stadium by NFL standards, and underwent $120 million in renovations three years ago. $30 million of that pricetag was covered by the city of Cleveland, paid off over 15 years.

 

As for what's being considered, it's all on the table right now, but the Browns are in early fact-finding mode (which will naturally include an economic study that will undoubtedly show, despite prevailing academic evidence to the contrary, that the team and a new or renovated facility will create a sizable impact on downtown). So, yeah, they'll talk about putting a roof on the current structure or perhaps building a dome.

 

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1 hour ago, BringBackTheVet said:

If you can put a football stadium downtown, then you don't have a downtown.

If the Jets had the potential to build a stadium in midtown Manhattan, I'm not sure this argument holds up.

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4 hours ago, ozzyman314 said:

Jimmy Haslam: “We have a signed Contract in hand, The Browns are indeed moving to Portland!” 

Hell no. We already have the Blazers constantly losing in the playoffs. We don't need another team that never makes the playoffs. :P

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On 5/3/2018 at 7:17 PM, Cosmic said:

If the Jets had the potential to build a stadium in midtown Manhattan, I'm not sure this argument holds up.

The Manhattan Jets...

 

Oh, what could've been.

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