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How much can you "update" a classic?


Gothamite

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On 1/13/2018 at 2:04 AM, Morgo said:

 

I don't think it was ugly at all.  It just shouldn't have replaced a look that was associated with a dynasty.  It could be argued that they went overboard with the wavy stripes and watery numbers but I still think the navy version was a striking look.  It would make a far better alternate look than any third they've released since.

They should wear it as an alternate. It's makes far more sense as an alternate than it ever did as a primary. Easy to say this now, but if in 95 they'd waited a year they could've taken part in the third jersey program and wore the fisherman without completely abandoning their dynasty uniforms, but back then if you wanted to wear a wild new uniform it was all or nothing. There wasn't third jerseys to test a look to see what the fans thought. 

 

Plus they'd make a killing on jersey sales. I'd buy one. 

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13 hours ago, andrewharrington said:

 

If it was truly an emergency, they’d probably just draw it out freehand and hand cut it, but yeah, what you described would be the process. Teams typically have their local lettering shop on notice, so while it sounds like a time consuming process, it’s really not, especially nowadays when they’d be cut with a laser or knife plotter. The same process is used for vertical arches. They don’t stock a dozen different skews of each letter. That would be a nightmare, especially if the lettering was multiple layer.

 

I've always wondered (like literally, since as far back as the early 90s when I noticed that the Phillies and Braves had vertical arching) how they did it, and up until this thread, I did think that they had little drawers with versions of each letter pre-cut and at different angles for if they appeared in the first third, middle third, or end third of the name plate.

 

Thx for the explanation.  

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Yeah you'd have to keep 26 to whatever power number of different shaped letters for vertically arched names. It'd be almost impossible. Like here's the drawer for an L if it's the second letter of a 7 letter name like GLAVINE because that would be a much different shape than the L thats the fourth letter of a 6 letter name like SMOLTZ. That's not even to mention that GLAVINE is shorter and therefore differently skewed than his 7 letter last name teammate WOHLERS because of the i in his last name. It'd be a nightmare to keep track of all that. 

 

It's impressive that vertically arched naming was so commonplace in those days because it was so much more work. You'd almost expect it to make a come back now that we have modern vectors and better plotting machines. I'm not a huge fan of how vertically arched names look, and the fall-off in its usage over the last couple decades gives it a very time-stamped look, but I appreciate the craftsmanship that went into those last names. 

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1 hour ago, McCarthy said:

Yeah you'd have to keep 26 to whatever power number of different shaped letters for vertically arched names. It'd be almost impossible. Like here's the drawer for an L if it's the second letter of a 7 letter name like GLAVINE because that would be a much different shape than the L thats the fourth letter of a 6 letter name like SMOLTZ. That's not even to mention that GLAVINE is shorter and therefore differently skewed than his 7 letter last name teammate WOHLERS because of the i in his last name. It'd be a nightmare to keep track of all that. 

 

It's impressive that vertically arched naming was so commonplace in those days because it was so much more work. You'd almost expect it to make a come back now that we have modern vectors and better plotting machines. I'm not a huge fan of how vertically arched names look, and the fall-off in its usage over the last couple decades gives it a very time-stamped look, but I appreciate the craftsmanship that went into those last names. 

 

 I disagree totally.  I think that vertically arched names look more professional and major-league because they obviously take more time and care to apply.  LIke with a straight name or radially-arched name, it kinda looks like they just quickly threw the letters on there - especially if there's nameplates.  IMO, the hierarchy of giving the "big time" feeling is:

 

1. vertically arched, no nameplate

2. radially arched, no nameplate

3. vertically arched, nameplate

4. straight horizontal, no nameplate

5. radially arched, nameplate

6. straight horizontal, nameplate*

 

I get that in hockey, my #6 is the standard (minus the obvious exceptions) aesthetic so I'm not sure how I'd think about not using a nameplate there - it might look so odd that it'd be lower on my list - but in general, outside of NHL, that's my list.

 

EDIT: also, same with NFL.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a jersey that didn't use a nameplate, and obviously arched names aren't going to work there.

 

EDIT: apparently the Eagles and Giants both had some years without nameplates back in late 80s.

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4 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

 I disagree totally.  I think that vertically arched names look more professional and major-league because they obviously take more time and care to apply.  LIke with a straight name or radially-arched name, it kinda looks like they just quickly threw the letters on there - especially if there's nameplates.  IMO, the hierarchy of giving the "big time" feeling is:

 

1. vertically arched, no nameplate

2. radially arched, no nameplate

3. vertically arched, nameplate

4. straight horizontal, no nameplate

5. radially arched, nameplate

6. straight horizontal, nameplate*

 

I get that in hockey, my #6 is the standard (minus the obvious exceptions) aesthetic so I'm not sure how I'd think about not using a nameplate there - it might look so odd that it'd be lower on my list - but in general, outside of NHL, that's my list.

 

EDIT: also, same with NFL.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a jersey that didn't use a nameplate, and obviously arched names aren't going to work there.

 

EDIT: apparently the Eagles and Giants both had some years without nameplates back in late 80s.

 

I don't disagree it looks more professional. I just think it looks very 1980's because that was the last time it was widely used. 

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Maybe "widely", but currently, the Red Wings and Avs are probably the most famous example of it in use.   I think lots of teams used it way past the 80s.  The Braves might even have made it to the 00s with it.   Here's an old UW article about vertically arched lettering:

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/060223

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Here's a 1990 Reggie White jersey that I think doesn't have a nameplate.  In the admittedly brief research I did today, I saw a few Giants jerseys (with the big serfied NOB font) and these Eagles ones that didn't appear to have nameplates.

 

6971_01_lg.jpg

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6 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Maybe "widely", but currently, the Red Wings and Avs are probably the most famous example of it in use.   I think lots of teams used it way past the 80s.  The Braves might even have made it to the 00s with it.   Here's an old UW article about vertically arched lettering:

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/060223

 

The New York Rangers, for the longest time, had some beautifully sewn vertically arched NOBs. When the Edge jerseys came in, the arch became less pronounced.

 

Also, the first year Avalanche jerseys had NOBs with varying line weights.

 

9596_kovalenko51_back.jpg

 

I always felt that the inaugural season Avalanche jerseys were superior because of that quirk. The smaller crest holds it back from being perfect, but now I'm veering off the topic...

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This example was mentioned in an NHL thread:

 

12 hours ago, Thaumatrope said:

Ironically, the NFL logo is a great example of a well thought out and executed rebrand:

 

Old logo (used until 2007):

4710.gif

New Logo (2008 to Present)

dwuw5lojnwsj12vfe0hfa6z47.gif 

 

While I miss the old typography (such much character!), the rendering of the football is a major improvement along with reducing the number of stars. The NFL logo benefited from having a number of elements that could be refined. The NHL logo has always been very simple, and as such there really isn't much that can be refined. It's like trying to improve on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Sure, you can add more elements to it, but all they really contribute is novelty...and sooner or later you just want to go back to the unadulterated original.

 

 

This came up in relation to the NHL, which was a pretty terrible update.

 

400px-NHL_Logo_former.svg.png    375px-05_NHL_Shield.svg.png

 

Extra outlines, pointless additions to letterforms, and gradients.  Yikes. 

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Quote

dwuw5lojnwsj12vfe0hfa6z47.gif

 

 

This logo was and is an upgrade over the old logo, ornate though it was.  Only part of the old NFL logo I missed is that it was a bit wider.  Felt like it better represented the league.  Big, bulky, hamburger shield - WHAM.  

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On 1/15/2018 at 8:25 AM, Gothamite said:

Yes, but isn’t that one of the reasons teams don’t use vertical arching as much anymore?  I recall the Braves specifically citing that when they switched to radially arched names. 

 

I didn’t say it was *easy.* I said it was possible. :P

 

On 1/15/2018 at 10:14 AM, BringBackTheVet said:

 

I've always wondered (like literally, since as far back as the early 90s when I noticed that the Phillies and Braves had vertical arching) how they did it, and up until this thread, I did think that they had little drawers with versions of each letter pre-cut and at different angles for if they appeared in the first third, middle third, or end third of the name plate.

 

Thx for the explanation.  

 

I recently read read a nice interview on Uni-Watch with great insight into how it was done in the pre-digital era using only templates, a good eye, and a steady hand.

 

They actually used to employ several dozen physical arch templates, each filled with a certain letter so the sewer could use it as a guide for how to cut, say, a C that falls three characters left of center or an N that falls five characters right of center.

 

https://uni-watch.com/2017/08/22/the-lost-art-of-val/

 

The Islanders’ example was either done this way, or with very early envelope or path warping capabilities in CorelDRAW, Illustrator, TypeStyler, or something of that nature. They were right on the cusp of the digital age.

 

The interview even delves into an often overlooked detail specific to the digital age; you can’t just use the arch warp because it leaves all the letters the same “height,” which makes the letters look too short as they get farther from the center. You have to use a different technique to optically arch the text so that the letters are stretched a little taller as they get farther from center.

 

23 hours ago, Gothamite said:

This example was mentioned in an NHL thread:

 

 

 

This came up in relation to the NHL, which was a pretty terrible update.

 

400px-NHL_Logo_former.svg.png    375px-05_NHL_Shield.svg.png

 

Extra outlines, pointless additions to letterforms, and gradients.  Yikes. 

 

Pointless? I can think of three points without even trying. The point on the N, the point on the H, and the point on the L. :lol:

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On 1/9/2018 at 2:17 PM, Mingjai said:

I think it's possible to update a classic look while still maintaining its spirit. Probably a minority opinion, but I thought the 49ers late-90s update (post white pants) did a good job capturing the look and feel of the franchise while trying something fresh:

 

football0007a.jpg

 

0ap2000000130818_gallery_600.jpg

 

The Eagles' update was not as good primarily because the green is just too murky--I'm fine with darkening it, but Philly went too far--but in the end, Philly's modernization ended up leaving a more lasting mark. I suppose if the Niners had won a Super Bowl in the updated look, they might not have changed so quick.

 

0ap2000000154060_gallery_600.jpg

 

donovanmcnabb3.jpeg.jpg

I'll sound like a broken record, but I don't care!! The Eagles need to go to an updated version of the Cunningham era jerseys. Clean, simple and Kelly green is vastly superior to that midnight green blandness!!

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On 1/11/2018 at 9:20 AM, Yac12 said:

I really liked this logo update, but wish they would have taken it one more step and updated the 80s uniforms.

Amen!!!! As a Hawks fan, I would go for that.

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On 1/11/2018 at 5:46 PM, SFGiants58 said:

 

Winning a division is no small feat, I'll grant you that. But to go 5/14 in pennants and 1/5 in the World Series is not good (if were talking the playoffs in total, they went 1/14 - or 0/3 and 1/11 if you divide between playoff formats). When you have the best rotation in baseball and amazing players that are in the postseason that often, only one World Series is a disappointment. 

 

It's embarrassing that they couldn't win when it mattered the most. I wouldn't call the Dodgers of the 1940s/'50s embarrassing at all, as they played against the best the AL had to offer. Those Braves often fell to less-than-stellar teams in the playoffs (e.g., five consecutive first-round exits from 2000-05), choked (e.g., 2-0 lead in the 1996 World Series, swept in the 1999 World Series, couldn't close it out in 1991), and ran into more potent. They should have dominated the 1990's in the way that the Yankees did, but instead they folded again and again. Maybe their competition was tougher, maybe the NL East (where they played after 1994) was a weak division (Mets being on-again, off-again contenders, Phillies entering a rut, the Expos falling apart, and the Marlins flopping around while somehow winning two World Series), I don't know.

 

The 1991-2005 Braves were a consistently good team, but they weren't good enough when it mattered the most. Think of them as the post-1977 Trail Blazers or the 1970s-90s Flyers, often a great team, but never the best and rarely looked upon without the modifier of "what could have been" or "they should have won more."

Uffff, we're off topic, but I agree. Talk to the Buffalo Bills.

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1 hour ago, Chromatic said:

I'm not opposed to this. I think it's a nice, unique look.

 

I just wish some other team would step up and own Kelly Green

 

Agreed. The Jets are the team that should rock Kelly Green. It would be a good opportunity to modernize the sleeve/shoulder design a little and pay better tribute to the Namath era. Take a look at this @oldschoolvikings concept:

 

JETSFINAL_zpsjdmrgdfx.png

 

That’s beautiful.

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I’m not sure the Cunningham era eagles wore true Kelly green (at least most ppls defijition of Kelly). They were a little darker, and the black made them a little murky. The green numbers on the whites was lighter than the green jersey color. 

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