Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

 

(Sigh... why do I bother engaging...) No, that's not what I'm doing. What I'm doing is using what I've seen with my own two eyes and recognizing how incredible LeBron is and what he's done and not giving myself an aneurysm over a basketball player.

We already know how amazing Lebron, that's nothing new. 

But you need to acknowledge the circumstances behind those accolades too. You can't just look at "8 straight"  as some major accomplishment for him without looking at the other side of it and seeing The "competition" he had to get there. 

9 minutes ago, Alex Houston said:

Why does it need to be one or the other? Bringing a title to Cleveland in '16 and making eight consecutive Finals is a hell of an accomplishment. Even if he ends up with a 3-6 Finals record, the fact he even has a Finals record puts him in company with the truly elite players that make most people's Top 10. At the same time, if you're debating the GOAT aspect, a higher ratio of runner up finishes and circumstances of the league do add the context and make it more convincing for the "MJ is the best" crowd.

Why can't it be, "Yeah Lebron is one of the all time greats, but his dominance is a bit inflated because he played in the weaker conference while The Stronger teams were out West" why is a simple fact like that so blasphemous?  

 

8 minutes ago, Red Wolf said:

How is this still happening? Why is it still happening?

Because people can't handle criticism of Lebron. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's another question to you then, @ozzyman314:

 

Why do we have to qualify his success? Why can't his success just be his success without it being so blasphemous to you?

 

As @Alex Houston said, why does it need to be one or the other?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

Here's another question to you then, @ozzyman314:

 

Why do we have to qualify his success? Why can't his success just be his success without it being so blasphemous to you?

 

As @Alex Houston said, why does it need to be one or the other?

Because blindly lauding achievements without actually looking at the details and what they had to go through to accomplish it is ridiculous the the kind of thing only ignorant fanboys do. 

 

You look at something like "8 straight Finals" Normally that would be really impressive, but when you realize it's Lebron that did it against an East he's had by the balls since 2011, and look at the teams he beat to accomplish that, it's really not that surprising or amazing. 

Dominating against weak competition that aren't even close to your level isn't that impressive. 

Dominating against strong teams that still offer you a real challenge is amazing. 

 

Why should I be impressed by him dominating a conference that been his to dominate for the past near decade?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And why does that bother you, @ozzyman314? Why did you decide now you have to bear the mantle of trying to take LeBron down?

 

Seems to me it bothers you because you're an opposing fanboy. LeBron is lauded for nearly single-handedly beating your Celtics, and you feel the need to counteract that for three days now with "well, he's actually not that great."

 

Look, I'm no LeBron fanboy. Hell, I'm barely an NBA fan. When I paid more everyday attention, I too was a LeBron hater even through the Miami years. But like, c'mon, dude. Real recognize real. LeBron has established himself as one of, if not the, greatest of all time. In the modern era, no matter who the hell you're playing, making eight consecutive Finals is remarkable.

 

And if you can't handle that, then well, idk what to tell you, man. Vaya con dios.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, who do you think said:

If LeBron's 8 straight finals appearances are suspect due to his competition then so are the Celtics' 8 straight championships in the 60s.

Sure, but context is important. 

 

20 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

And why does that bother you, @ozzyman314? Why did you decide now you have to bear the mantle of trying to take LeBron down?

 

Seems to me it bothers you because you're an opposing fanboy. LeBron is lauded for nearly single-handedly beating your Celtics, and you feel the need to counteract that for three days now with "well, he's actually not that great."

 

Look, I'm no LeBron fanboy. Hell, I'm barely an NBA fan. When I paid more everyday attention, I too was a LeBron hater even through the Miami years. But like, c'mon, dude. Real recognize real. LeBron has established himself as one of, if not the, greatest of all time. In the modern era, no matter who the hell you're playing, making eight consecutive Finals is remarkable.

 

And if you can't handle that, then well, idk what to tell you, man. Vaya con dios.

 

 

Yeah, surely it has nothing to do with the fact Lebron just made his eighth straight final with such a trash team. 

 

I do recognize Lebron is one the greats. But you can’t just blindly laude his accomplishments. 

 

I’m sorry but When you’re Lebron, making The Finals 8 straight years in a conference that hasn’t offered you a significant challenge since 2012, to the point where you’re willingly handicapping yourself with such a bad team,  that’s really not as major an accomplishment as you would think. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anything like this ever happened in the history of this forum? A sports argument like this carrying on for page after page after page when one person is (presumably, I’ve barely read any of it) just digging themselves deeper into a hole and clearly on the losing side?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three teams in the Eastern Conference made the 1992 Playoffs with sub-.500 records.  Shouldn't that be held against Jordan with this criteria?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ozzyman314 said:

No one outside of Lebron fanboys are going to care so much about that 1 title. 

You’re out of your mind. 

And I find it hilarious that we’re all supposedly “fanboys” to you. 

No man, we’re just not letting pissiness over the Celtics losing blind us to a very real truth. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you, @ozzyman314, say LeBron hasn't faced a significant challenge in the East since 2012, let's look at that:

 

- 2012 (MIA): 6 games Semis vs. Indiana, 7 games ECF vs. Boston. (5-game win over the vaunted West and the Thunder)

- 2013 (MIA): 7 games ECF vs. Boston (7-game win over Spurs)

- 2014 (MIA): 6 games ECF vs. Indiana (5-game loss to Spurs)

- 2015 (CLE): 6 games Semis vs. Chicago (6-game loss to Warriors)

- 2016 (CLE) : 6 games ECF vs. Toronto (7-game win over Warriors)

- 2017 (CLE): Besides the 2011 Miami run, only real wash in the East (5-game loss to Warriors)

- 2018 (CLE): 7 games 1st Round vs. Indiana, 7 games ECF vs. Boston

 

To say he hasn't been "challenged" is a lie. Sure, he hasn't been beaten. But to say there haven't been challengers is false. Maybe he's just dominant because he's dominant. Maybe those other teams look bad because they keep losing to him. It's that asinine argument that he'd be better off losing at some point to prove he's actually good. To you, LeBron would have been better off losing in one of those 6/7 game series to break up the 8-year streak just to prove that there was a "challenger" in the East. But, fun flip side of that fact, you'd tear him down for that loss because he lost.

 

I'm sorry that LeBron keeps winning, and I'm sorry you don't like him.

 

You can keep grasping for straws to argue against, but I'm done with this conversation. Again, vaya con dios, compadre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

You’re out of your mind. 

And I find it hilarious that we’re all supposedly “fanboys” to you. 

No man, we’re just not letting pissiness over the Celtics losing blind us to a very real truth. 

Keep hiding behind that “bitter Celtics fan” excuse, it really shows the lack of any actual argument you have. 

 

What i’m saying should even be that big a deal unless you are massive Lebron fanboys. 

The East hasn’t been a challenge for him in years. 

If he played in The West he doesn’t see the same success.

The fact he breezes through The East every year, yet struggles in The Finals, and refuses to go out West lends credence to it. 

But sure keep believing the one using actual facts & logic is wrong. Totally not fanboys, you’re just blindly accepting his accomplishments without any actual context. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Crabcake47 said:

Has anything like this ever happened in the history of this forum? A sports argument like this carrying on for page after page after page when one person is (presumably, I’ve barely read any of it) just digging themselves deeper into a hole and clearly on the losing side?

 

Not in quite some time.

 

I once had a meltdown like ozzy here, after the Lakers lost to the Mavs in 2011. But I stopped after a few hours, quickly realized how idiotic I was being, apologized and grew up. Never happened again, even though my teams have suffered far greater heartbreaks since then (2014, 2016 Cowboys and the USMNT falling to qualify for the WC). 

 

I was really young back then, and assuming ozzy is still kid, there's still time for him to mature. Maybe, or rather, hopefully, he'll look back and shudder at the immaturity he's displayed here as I have done with my past actions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, OnWis97 said:

LeBron's Nine Trips to the Finals.  Green are years I think are feathers in his cap.  Red are potential indictments.  

  • 2007 (CLE): Loss.  He dragged a nothing team there and lost to the freaking Spurs.  Feather in his cap.
  • 2011 (MIA): Loss.  He did not show up like he should have. Biggest indictment on his career.
  • 2012 (MIA): Win.  Superteam, but hey all we do is count rings, right?
  • 2013 (MIA): Win. See above
  • 2014 (MIA): Loss.  Superteam loses to Dynasty.  You could argue that the superteam and "best player" should find a way.  A bit of an indictment.
  • 2015 (MIA): Loss.  The newly-dominant Warriors plus his banged up stars in Love in Irving made that absolutely un-winnable.  I think players on losing teams should win MVP in only the most rare of circumstances.  I'll go to my grave believing this is one.
  • 2016 (CLE): Win against a more well-rounded team.
  • 2017 (CLE): Loss against a team that won 73 games and then added a top-5 player.
  • 2018 (CLE): Loss against that same team; he now does not have Kyrie.

But I guess most would just color the wins green and losses red.  The Kyrie trade ended up almost being a giveaway and they're back.

 

When comparing all-time greats, I do think that the red, particularly 2011 is all you really need to put him beneath Jordan.  It's not that 6-0 is the end all, but Jordan stepped up in pretty much every big opportunity.  And he never got to the biggest stage and laid an egg.  

 

A question is whether LeBron ranks above Kobe.  And a lot of people think so despite the 5-3 ring count.  That's harder to say.  Michael Jordan was pretty much the Babe Ruth of my generation.  Kobe was also great and also seemed to step up when it mattered. So it's sort of LeBron's history of carrying teams on his back vs. Kobe's history of playing for better teams but always coming up big (I recall one Western Conference finals game 7 in which Kobe had an off game but the team pulled it out; I wanna say it was in the 2008-2010 timeframe).

Truth be told, I am surprised that a lot of people rank LeBron over Kobe because of 1) ring count, 2) LA, 3) Kobe is generally more well-liked than LeBron, 4) two franchise moves vs. 0.  I like LeBron A LOT more than I like Kobe but I'm not even sure who to rank higher.  Day-to-day, I think LeBron is more talented, but I prefer Kobe taking that last shot (even though there are some stats that sort of belie this).

 

Not sure if 2014 is an indictment since the Superteam collectively turned into a 2007 Cavs-esque pumpkin at some point during the postseason due to fatigue and old age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Crabcake47 said:

Has anything like this ever happened in the history of this forum? A sports argument like this carrying on for page after page after page when one person is (presumably, I’ve barely read any of it) just digging themselves deeper into a hole and clearly on the losing side?

 

I've been generally defensive of the NBA's repetitiveness but if episode 4 of Cavs/Warriors gives us so little to discuss that it allows for this fight to go on, I take it all back. Socialize the NBA. Send Durant to Memphis and Curry to Phoenix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ozzyman314 said:

No one outside of Lebron fanboys are going to care so much about that 1 title.

It's by far the most impressive championship in NBA history, given the circumstances. It might even be the most impressive championship in sports history. Rest assured, "LeBron fanboys" will never be the only ones caring about that title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ozzyman314 said:

The Patriots dominance in their division is part of my point actually. Lauding Lebron for his "8 straight finals" is like lauding The Patriots for their 16 division titles since 2018. 

It's not worth bragging about when you realize the lack of competition they faced to reach that. 

 

This is just so mind-numbingly stupid I can't even believe that I'm getting back into this, but jesus I just have to.

 

You play who they put in front of you.  They beat all those teams.  In your world, if they lose, they suck because they played lousy teams, but if they win, it doesn't mean anything because they play lousy teams.  It's just so frustratingly dumb.  I'm not a big sports fan, and certainly not an NBA fan, but I know that it's silly to say a team isn't great because they didn't beat great teams - especially since they did beat one of the all time historically great teams.  As for the Pats, maybe the teams in their division have bad records because they're each getting beat twice a year by them?

 

If Lebron goes out west, he'll be joining (from your POV) a really good team, and he'll likely win with that team.  You'll praise him for winning with a lot of help, because he did it out there.  Isn't winning the east by himself more impressive than winning the west on an already really good team (let's not pretend he's joining some jabroni team.)

 

At this point you're just throwing a tantrum and throwing out labels like "fanboy", which is the equivalent of someone in a political discussion throwing out "PC police" - you've conceded the argument the second it happens, because rather than defend your side (which you can't), you need to dismiss the other side by calling them something that they're not.

 

You are not being ganged up on by FANBOYS!!!, or because your views are different.  You're being ganged up on because you're incapable of presenting a reasonable argument to prove your point, and are just spewing nonsense from your mouth (via your keyboard) like a child.  Please stop.  Just... please stop.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, OnWis97 said:

LeBron's Nine Trips to the Finals.  Green are years I think are feathers in his cap.  Red are potential indictments.  

  • 2007 (CLE): Loss.  He dragged a nothing team there and lost to the freaking Spurs.  Feather in his cap.
  • 2011 (MIA): Loss.  He did not show up like he should have. Biggest indictment on his career.
  • 2012 (MIA): Win.  Superteam, but hey all we do is count rings, right?
  • 2013 (MIA): Win. See above
  • 2014 (MIA): Loss.  Superteam loses to Dynasty.  You could argue that the superteam and "best player" should find a way.  A bit of an indictment.
  • 2015 (MIA): Loss.  The newly-dominant Warriors plus his banged up stars in Love in Irving made that absolutely un-winnable.  I think players on losing teams should win MVP in only the most rare of circumstances.  I'll go to my grave believing this is one.
  • 2016 (CLE): Win against a more well-rounded team.
  • 2017 (CLE): Loss against a team that won 73 games and then added a top-5 player.
  • 2018 (CLE): Loss against that same team; he now does not have Kyrie.

But I guess most would just color the wins green and losses red.  The Kyrie trade ended up almost being a giveaway and they're back.

 

When comparing all-time greats, I do think that the red, particularly 2011 is all you really need to put him beneath Jordan.  It's not that 6-0 is the end all, but Jordan stepped up in pretty much every big opportunity.  And he never got to the biggest stage and laid an egg.  

 

A question is whether LeBron ranks above Kobe.  And a lot of people think so despite the 5-3 ring count.  That's harder to say.  Michael Jordan was pretty much the Babe Ruth of my generation.  Kobe was also great and also seemed to step up when it mattered. So it's sort of LeBron's history of carrying teams on his back vs. Kobe's history of playing for better teams but always coming up big (I recall one Western Conference finals game 7 in which Kobe had an off game but the team pulled it out; I wanna say it was in the 2008-2010 timeframe).

Truth be told, I am surprised that a lot of people rank LeBron over Kobe because of 1) ring count, 2) LA, 3) Kobe is generally more well-liked than LeBron, 4) two franchise moves vs. 0.  I like LeBron A LOT more than I like Kobe but I'm not even sure who to rank higher.  Day-to-day, I think LeBron is more talented, but I prefer Kobe taking that last shot (even though there are some stats that sort of belie this).

I would argue that the 2004 Finals was a far bigger mark against Kobe than any of LeBron's losses were for him. Kobe didn't just lose that year - he quit. He put his ego ahead of the team by refusing to pass the ball to Shaq. In doing so, he hurt his team's chances of winning.

 

The worst you can say about LeBron is that he choked against the Mavs in 2011. But choking is still preferable to what Kobe was doing in 2004. It's not like LeBron was selfishly trying to hurt his team's chances of winning. He just didn't play well.

 

To LeBron's credit, he responded to the 2011 Finals by evolving himself as a leader and player. He came back stronger and became a champion. It's ironic how people love Jordan's inspirational quotes about learning from failure, but then bash LeBron for ever failing in the first place and ignore how he's learned from it.

 

As for wanting Kobe to take the last shot over LeBron... yeah, the stats don't really back you up on that. LeBron has actually made more go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of playoff games than Jordan did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

If Lebron goes out west, he'll be joining (from your POV) a really good team, and he'll likely win with that team.  You'll praise him for winning with a lot of help, because he did it out there. 

No he won't. He'll switch gears and start discrediting LeBron for "needing to be carried to rings by stacked teams" instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey LeBron? Could you stop the lava flow over there on them Hawaiian Islands. Be much appreciated. Thanks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Wings said:

Let's see: LeBron has had to face the Spurs dynasty, Warriors dynasty, a good Dallas team and a good OKC team. I think 3 titles is pretty good considering the opposition.

I'm not totally sure if this is true, but I read somewhere that LeBron's teams have only ever been favored in two of their Finals appearances. He has three rings. If true, he's actually beaten the odds to win as many rings as he has.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.