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Well, if anything, what we’ve seen in the other recent major championship series (Eagles! Astros! Vegas! Caps! Holtby!) makes these Finals seem more and more........ like a bad and stale rerun.

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23 hours ago, See Red said:

 

Yeah, since assists require a FG, creating two more FGs for your teammates makes up for at least the four point difference in scoring between the two.  LeBron's game is about more than scoring -- his greatest strength might be his vision and awareness of what's going on on the court.  The least you can do is account for this fact when comparing the two players.

 

So was Jordan's. Best defensive player in the league for several seasons in a row. While also being the best offensive player in the sport.

 

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Sure, but don't forget to account for LeBron's superior FG% (despite taking more 3's) and needing less shots per game to be as effective.

 

Is everyone single pro-LeBron argument ever just a series of yeah-buts and assumptions? Sure seems like it.

 

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Or... Jordan's statistics look better but if you control for a variable that allowed Jordan to have more opportunities to score/assist/rebound every game, they actually aren't better.

 

You're analyzing statistics without even doing the bare minimum you can do to control for a variable that has a huge impact on those statistics (literally the bare minimum, basketball reference even has a Per 100 Possessions category).  That makes your analysis meaningless.

 

Do you really not understand that if you have two players and Player A gets 100 possessions per game and Player B gets 90, it's easier for Player A to score more points because he has more opportunities?

 

Ha. First you wanted to bring in assists and rebounds to try and help LeBron's case, I shut that down by bringing in turnovers and steals, and now you're changing it up and crying about how LeBron doesn't get as many opportunities as Jordan. Keep moving those goalposts.

 

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Because LeBron's never been hand checked.

 

Fun fact: The hand checking rule was introduced because the allowance of zone defenses made it too easy to defend.  So, LeBron having to deal with zone defenses is more limiting than dealing with hand checking.  There's a reason star players complained when the NBA allowed teams to play zone defense.  But don't take my word for it.  Jordan, who famously said that if zone defenses were legal he never would have had the career he had, also once said:


"I never liked zones.  I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."

 

LeBron's 6'8", 250 by the way.  If hand checking him is what you're relying on to defend him, you might as well just start walking back to your offensive end.

 

Hand checking... gtfo.  You couldn't breathe on Jordan without getting called for a foul.

 

More yeah-but-what-ifs. What's the context for those pictures? Was the hand-checking called? How many times has LeBron been hand checked and his defender got away with it? Tell me.

 

Jordan and LeBron both the same amount of free throw attempts per game for their career (8.2 and 8.1).

 

"NO NO NO YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT _________" - every LeBron fan in the history of the internet. Just a barrage of excuses.

 

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You're arguing that Jordan's better because he scored more points and you don't think it's relevant that a rule change made it easier for Jordan to score more points?

 

Not really. That different three point line lasted for 3 seasons (one of which Jordan missed all but 17 games plus playoffs) and it came outside of Jordan's prime. All NBA arenas had the modified three point line, not just United Center. Maybe if the rule change never happened, it takes his PPG average for those seasons down by 0.5-1.0 points. Maybe the strong likelihood that he takes fewer threes and more inside/mid-range in those two seasons helps bump his overall FG% up.

 

I love maybes. You can spin them any way you want!

 

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Jordan also played in a watered down league on loaded teams at the end of his career, but whatever.

 

LeBron's played in an absolutely pathetic Eastern Conference on loaded teams for over half of his career, but whatever.

 

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Well, the Suns also lost Goran Dragic, Jason Richardson, Leandro Barbosa, and Hedo Turkoglu (among, like, 8 others), so that's not really the same.  The point is you're using team accomplishments to argue individual greatness even though the team was damn near capable of achieving just as much without him.

 

Dragic and Richardson were traded DURING the 2010-11 season for Aaron Brooks and Vince Carter respectively, who both gave them similar production. Hedo Turkoglu joined the Suns for the 2011 season. Barbosa was their backup guard and he shot like **** in 2010.

 

So again I ask, is Amare Stoudemire better than Michael Jordan?

 

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Only if you omit the stats that don't support your case.

 

Right back at you.

 

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And Robert Horry, a perfectly fine player, has more rings than Jordan.  You've chosen the laziest possible way of comparing two players.  Congrats.

 

See now I KNOW I won this, because otherwise you wouldn't be trying to write off Jordan's 6 championships to LeBron's 3 as a lazy comparison.

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5 hours ago, who do you think said:

Is everyone single pro-LeBron argument ever just a series of yeah-buts and assumptions? Sure seems like it.

 

"Jordan scored more!"

"Yeah, but LeBron scored more efficiently and was better at every other aspect of offense."

"Is everyone single pro-LeBron argument ever just a series of yeah-buts and assumptions?"

 

That's basically where we're at here?

 

"Saturn's big so it's the best!"

"Yeah, but Jupiter's bigger."

"Is everyone single pro-Jupiter argument ever just a series of yeah-buts and assumptions?"

 

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Keep moving those goalposts.

 

Yeesh.  Take a statistics class.  You really don't seem to understand that if a player gets ten more possessions than another, he has ten more opportunities to accumulate statistics, which is meaningful when you're comparing statistics.

 

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See now I KNOW I won this, because otherwise you wouldn't be trying to write off Jordan's 6 championships to LeBron's 3 as a lazy comparison.

 

Now I KNOW I won this because you're writing off Robert Horry's 7 championships to Jordan's 6.  It's just a lazy argument, guy.

 

There's no winning.  You can't win a debate about which player from two different era's is better.  You think Jordan's better?  I don't care.  But you're using statistics (without a full understanding of how statistics work, apparently) to make a case that they don't necessarily make—and more than that, you're picking and choosing which statistics you want to use—so I'm correcting you.

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So can we blame Nike for no blue or wine unis this year? The black/primary color warmups are crap too! 

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I kind of assumed the Cavs are wearing black all the time as a team decision, since that's what they won the title in (sorta) and they aren't mandated to wear white for home games.

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Do you think there's any interplay between the black/white All Star game and the black/white Finals?

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21 hours ago, Lights Out said:

The best player of the 2000s debate is between Duncan, Shaq and LeBron, let's be real now.

Kobe Bryant was the best player of the 2000s. It’s not even much of a discussion. 

Duncan’s the only one there who comes anywhere close. 

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2 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

Kobe Bryant was the best player of the 2000s. It’s not even much of a discussion. 

Duncan’s the only one there who comes anywhere close. 

I think Duncan warrants a piece of the discussion.  Agree with DG that Shaq could have been in the discussion but neither he, nor his body, held up.  In fairness he's a bit older and his prime is a little more split between decades than Kobe's.

 

I'd say it was Kobe, but Tim Duncan is like the Curtis Martin of the NBA except he's even better.  He may be the most under-appreciated athlete of the last several decades.

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12 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

So can we blame Nike for no blue or wine unis this year? The black/primary color warmups are crap too! 

 

You can probably blame them for no blue but didn't the Cavs wear black on the road all of last years Finals?

 

4 hours ago, OnWis97 said:

I think Duncan warrants a piece of the discussion.  Agree with DG that Shaq could have been in the discussion but neither he, nor his body, held up.  In fairness he's a bit older and his prime is a little more split between decades than Kobe's.

 

I'd say it was Kobe, but Tim Duncan is like the Curtis Martin of the NBA except he's even better.  He may be the most under-appreciated athlete of the last several decades.

 

Yeah, Shaq wasn't really a huge factor from his last full season in Miami on, if I remember correctly.  He was dominant for the first half of the 2000's but not so much for the latter half.  The last few years of the decade put him in Phoenix and Cleveland.

 

It's Kobe at number one.  Tim Duncan probably second.  KG might also warrant mentioning but he's not going to be above either of those two.

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Warriors in 3.

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1 minute ago, DG_Now said:

I don't see what Jordan Clarkson gives them that Cedi Osman can't.

Dude, 10 minutes and 1-6.

He shouldn't play the rest of the night.

 

And he'll clap his hands in disgust.

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Based on the Warriors third quarter tax, I believe this means they're about to win by 50. 

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Sigh, I keep having to remind myself that the reason they play like it’s the damn pre-season IN THE FINALS is because they can. That Steph three kinda jolted that back into me. 

 

 

I can can see why this team would annoy people, though. They don’t even have to try, and they often don’t, and they still cruise. Even as a fan, that’s frustrating. Or, a testament to just how good they are. I still can’t quite tell. I kinda think we’re not going to be able to appreciate just how good this team is until years from now. Right now, it’s hard to wrap your head around it. 

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17 minutes ago, Red Wolf said:

Based on the Warriors third quarter tax, I believe this means they're about to win by 50. 

 

Well of course. They've just unleashed the Kraken. And by Kraken I mean JaVale McGee, who the Cavs, like last year, have no answer for.

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9 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

 

Well of course. They've just unleashed the Kraken. And by Kraken I mean JaVale McGee, who the Cavs, like last year, have no answer for.

You spelled JaVale McGOAT wrong

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Just now, Kaz said:

You spelled JaVale McGOAT wrong

 

Until he reminded the world why he doesn't play big minutes in important games. Poor JaVale.

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LeBron can almost singlehandedly  defeat anyone in the known universe. 

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