Universal Maxims of Uniform Design

[Gothamite]

33 minutes ago, 8BW14 said:

like this:

but not this:

 

YES.

 

Such a small change, but nevertheless a huge downgrade.   

[JerseyJimmy]

Hockey jerseys should never, ever have a phantom yoke. If, for example, your white jersey has a red yoke with a black outline, do not give your red jersey a black phantom yoke. Either give it a black yoke or drop it altogether.

[WavePunter]

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

I took it to mean that since the Saints have Braisher stripes on their helmet, they should have Braisher stripes on their gold pants.   Or they should take the single black stripe from the gold pants and put it on the helmet.

 

Like elements should have like stripes.  That’s my rule here. 

I understood the specific Saints example, but the Ohio State example clarified more..

I personally am generally not a fan of placing outer stripes on an existing stripe design to make different colored elements "match" (like the Giants example - putting blue stripes around the red on the pants to make it "match" the helmet).. It can look good, but it creates as much inconsistency as it does consistency - going from a 1-stripe to a 3-stripe is inconsistent.. Background color is not a stripe..

Florida, however, does a good job with this (except for their orange jerseys), but I usually just think it looks forced.

I prefer a proper recoloring of stripes (Miami Dolphins 2013-2017 set does a good job matching striping patterns of different colors; also, the vintage Browns, although I would've preferred B/O/B on the white pants instead of O/B/O).

[Gothamite]

7 hours ago, WavePunter said:

I personally am generally not a fan of placing outer stripes on an existing stripe design to make different colored elements "match" (like the Giants example - putting blue stripes around the red on the pants to make it "match" the helmet).. It can look good, but it creates as much inconsistency as it does consistency - going from a 1-stripe to a 3-stripe is inconsistent.. Background color is not a stripe..

 

Can’t agree with you there.  

 

Do you think the Packers jersey stripes are “inconsistent” with the helmet and pants?

 

 

Seems kinda like the very definition of consistency to me. 

[8BW14]

24 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Can’t agree with you there.  

 

Do you think the Packers jersey stripes are “inconsistent” with the helmet and pants?

 

 

Seems kinda like the very definition of consistency to me. 

Speaking of the Packers, by keeping the stripes "consistent" between the white and green jerseys, they end up with really good stripes on the green ones and not so good striping on the white jersey because it's the only place white touches yellow and it makes the colors sort of bleed together, IMO.

[Gothamite]

42 minutes ago, 8BW14 said:

Speaking of the Packers, by keeping the stripes "consistent" between the white and green jerseys, they end up with really good stripes on the green ones and not so good striping on the white jersey because it's the only place white touches yellow and it makes the colors sort of bleed together, IMO.

 

I could not agree more.  That’s a great example of colors mattering.

 

Braisher stripes work because of the tonal pattern. Light color/darker color/white and then reverse.  Start mixing the colors out of order and the balance is lost, it all falls apart.  

 

Vince Lombardi had it right in the first place.

 

 

 

   

[OnWis97]

11 hours ago, WavePunter said:

I understood the specific Saints example, but the Ohio State example clarified more..

I personally am generally not a fan of placing outer stripes on an existing stripe design to make different colored elements "match" (like the Giants example - putting blue stripes around the red on the pants to make it "match" the helmet).. It can look good, but it creates as much inconsistency as it does consistency - going from a 1-stripe to a 3-stripe is inconsistent.. Background color is not a stripe..

Florida, however, does a good job with this (except for their orange jerseys), but I usually just think it looks forced.

I prefer a proper recoloring of stripes (Miami Dolphins 2013-2017 set does a good job matching striping patterns of different colors; also, the vintage Browns, although I would've preferred B/O/B on the white pants instead of O/B/O).

I am generally with you, but it’s kind case-by-case.

 

I will say this: before coming to the boards, I did not realize that the extra stripes were meant to create consistency. ?  I thought of recolored versions of the same pattern as consistent.  I doubt many fans pick up on the purpose of the “extra” stripes.

[OnWis97]

17 hours ago, BrandMooreArt said:

ive laid out my thoughts about football specifically. y'all can do with it as you wish: https://medium.com/graphic-language/football-uniform-grading-scale-e351024bdc3c

 

I like your non-negotiables.  I think some teams flirt with violating #2 in this era of tight uniforms and custom fonts.  One thing that bugs me about Wisconsin’s switch to UA is that the 0, 9, 8, and 6 are not as easy to distinguish as the previous block numbers were.

[BrandMooreArt]

2 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

I like your non-negotiables.  I think some teams flirt with violating #2 in this era of tight uniforms and custom fonts.  One thing that bugs me about Wisconsin’s switch to UA is that the 0, 9, 8, and 6 are not as easy to distinguish as the previous block numbers were.

 

yea, for Wisconsin thats a great foundation for a number font but i also feel its too heavy in weight. in action or when players are bent over the numbers do get hard to read. sometimes, i think designers/teams can get too focused on "big, block number" and this is where you can see the negative space is equally important.  

[WavePunter]

5 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

Can’t agree with you there.  

 

Do you think the Packers jersey stripes are “inconsistent” with the helmet and pants?

 

 

Seems kinda like the very definition of consistency to me. 

I'm in the camp that doesn't equate jersey stripes directly to helmet and pants (as others have also said, and as evidenced by my reference to the Browns'old uniforms).. I'll also say that sometimes (as evidenced by your post), colors need those "stems" (thin stripes between normal-width stripes) to help differentiate them.. But I would also point out that varying-width stripes (packers sleeves) are inconsistent with their helmet stripes (uniform width), so again, it's an example of "The very definition of consistency" bringing inconsistency to the uniform - at least in some form or fashion.. As a general rule, it's very difficult to have TRUE consistency across all uniform elements, so usually the best alternative is the perfect solution, depending on the situation.. Also, your next post regarding the Lombardi version of the white jerseys kinda supports my basic points in that recoloring is often better/more consistent than adding stripes.. I think we agree more on this than not, just look at specific examples a touch differently

[Gothamite]

I think we do.

 

I think the only thing I would have to ageee to disagree on is that background colors can’t be replicated as stripes for the purposes of visually linking disparate elements. 

 

The Giants’ original pants stripes were inspired; blue stripes surrounding red created visual harmony with the helmet.  Their modern red/gray/blue shatters that, creating a visual mess that has no resonance with anything else on the uniform.

 

That’s particularly egregious with such otherwise-simple designs, which leans heavily on those types of harmonies to work.  

[WavePunter]

3 hours ago, Gothamite said:

I think we do.

 

I think the only thing I would have to ageee to disagree on is that background colors can’t be replicated as stripes for the purposes of visually linking disparate elements. 

 

The Giants’ original pants stripes were inspired; blue stripes surrounding red created visual harmony with the helmet.  Their modern red/gray/blue shatters that, creating a visual mess that has no resonance with anything else on the uniform.

 

That’s particularly egregious with such otherwise-simple designs, which leans heavily on those types of harmonies to work.  

Again, sometimes exact and precise continuity isn't possible, and the best option will be something that breaks SOME form of continuity.. While you're correct regarding the Giants in that a red stripe bordered by blue is harmonious with the helmet, it's also a 3-stripe design competing with a 1-stripe design on the same uniform.. You could make the argument for the current pants that each individual stripe is surrounded by the background color - consistent with the helmet.. There are so many ways to create or disrupt consistency that I think it's almost best to have a systematic plan to break consistency when appropriate, but in the most logical and harmonious way, per the examples above..

I also think you can get more leeway and get away with more variation when the uniform is simple and the striping patterns are few & far-between.. I don't dislike either version of the Giants' pants, and think they both look good and both work for different reasons, but most importantly, because the overall uniform design is simple.. The Colts' number of stripes situation is another example that doesn't bother me.. The Saints, however, are a terrific example of a huge mistake.. Matching pants and helmets should have matching stripes.. That's common sense.. The single black pants stripe looks out of place.. However, if the black pants had, say, two gold stripes only - and lacked white, it would probably look just fine since there are no black uniform elements that are striped to clash with them.. 

[Brown1]

18 hours ago, WavePunter said:

I understood the specific Saints example, but the Ohio State example clarified more..

I personally am generally not a fan of placing outer stripes on an existing stripe design to make different colored elements "match" (like the Giants example - putting blue stripes around the red on the pants to make it "match" the helmet).. It can look good, but it creates as much inconsistency as it does consistency - going from a 1-stripe to a 3-stripe is inconsistent.. Background color is not a stripe..

Florida, however, does a good job with this (except for their orange jerseys), but I usually just think it looks forced.

I prefer a proper recoloring of stripes (Miami Dolphins 2013-2017 set does a good job matching striping patterns of different colors; also, the vintage Browns, although I would've preferred B/O/B on the white pants instead of O/B/O).

You are talking about color swapping. Which is what you like.

 

Keeping colors of a striping pattern across uniforms isn’t inconsistent, you just don’t like it. It’s actually the definition of consistent I’m pretty sure, everything being the same?

[Brown1]

4 hours ago, WavePunter said:

I'm in the camp that doesn't equate jersey stripes directly to helmet and pants (as others have also said, and as evidenced by my reference to the Browns'old uniforms).. I'll also say that sometimes (as evidenced by your post), colors need those "stems" (thin stripes between normal-width stripes) to help differentiate them.. But I would also point out that varying-width stripes (packers sleeves) are inconsistent with their helmet stripes (uniform width), so again, it's an example of "The very definition of consistency" bringing inconsistency to the uniform - at least in some form or fashion.. As a general rule, it's very difficult to have TRUE consistency across all uniform elements, so usually the best alternative is the perfect solution, depending on the situation.. Also, your next post regarding the Lombardi version of the white jerseys kinda supports my basic points in that recoloring is often better/more consistent than adding stripes.. I think we agree more on this than not, just look at specific examples a touch differently

So you’re right because the sleeve stripe isn’t the exact same size as the helmet and pants stripe? You keep acting like your opinion is more important because you like color swaps. We get it, you like color swaps and you’ll nitpick anything else to help favor your point.

[WavePunter]

22 minutes ago, Brown1 said:

So you’re right because the sleeve stripe isn’t the exact same size as the helmet and pants stripe? You keep acting like your opinion is more important because you like color swaps. We get it, you like color swaps and you’ll nitpick anything else to help favor your point.

Well, if you've read my previous posts, I'm not against anything you've mentioned.. I think teams (and often concept creators on these boards) try SO hard to maintain an EXACT striping pattern across an entire uniform that it often looks busier than needed, since it often requires additional outer stripes to achieve this (ex: Florida Gators helmets to jerseys), so if you're adding stripes or changing their widths, it's actually the definition of inconsistent.. Sure, some teams have a simple pattern in a tertiary color that can, in fact, be carried across all uniform elements seamlessly, which is great, but it's rare.. So, don't try to paint me in a certain light for simply pointing out weaknesses in what most would consider "consistency", when it's just as inconsistent as some other options.. I was simply illustrating when certain things are most appropriate and/or work better than other options.. The Packers are an example of needing the stems of dark color to separate the two light colors in their sleeve stripes on their dark jersey, but also an example of why those stems are a bad decision for their white jersey.. A case where NEITHER jersey features an accurate recoloring of the helmet stripes (nor should one of them), and shouldn't be recolored versions of each other (although they currently are).. Also, I've expressed a fondness for the classic Browns look, which isn't exclusively recoloring.. So, if that's what you "get" from me, then you've missed the point entirely..

[Brown1]

5 minutes ago, WavePunter said:

Well, if you've read my previous posts, I'm not against anything you've mentioned.. I think teams (and often concept creators on these boards) try SO hard to maintain an EXACT striping pattern across an entire uniform that it often looks busier than needed, since it often requires additional outer stripes to achieve this (ex: Florida Gators helmets to jerseys), so if you're adding stripes or changing their widths, it's actually the definition of inconsistent.. Sure, some teams have a simple pattern in a tertiary color that can, in fact, be carried across all uniform elements seamlessly, which is great, but it's rare.. So, don't try to paint me in a certain light for simply pointing out weaknesses in what most would consider "consistency", when it's just as inconsistent as some other options.. I was simply illustrating when certain things are most appropriate and/or work better than other options.. The Packers are an example of needing the stems of dark color to separate the two light colors in their sleeve stripes on their dark jersey, but also an example of why those stems are a bad decision for their white jersey.. A case were NEITHER jersey features an accurate recoloring of the helmet stripes (nor should they), and shouldn't be recolored versions of each other (although they currently are).. Also, I've expressed a fondness for the classic Browns look, which isn't exclusively recoloring.. So, if that's what you "get" from me, then you've missed the point entirely..

The Packers home sleeves match the helmets. Because they aren’t the EXACT same size your are saying they are “different” which is just your view on it. These Browns’ uniforms sure appear to be a color swap of white and brown.....what makes that not an exclusive recoloring?

[WavePunter]

1 minute ago, Brown1 said:

The Packers home sleeves match the helmets. Because they aren’t the EXACT same size your are saying they are “different” which is just your view on it. These Browns’ uniforms sure appear to be a color swap of white and brown.....what makes that not an exclusive recoloring?

Because the striping patterns are entirely different.. The helmet and pants feature a 3-stripe pattern, while the jerseys feature a  5-stripe pattern.. The helmets and pants differ in that the helmet has the lighter color sandwiched between the darker color, while the pants feature the darker color sandwiched between the lighter color.. Because one jersey features the darker color as the outer color, while the other features the lighter color as the outer color.. Those are areas that could (and often do) get considered for "consistency", but are lacking here.. So, while yes, these two jerseys simply swap brown and white, my overall point regarding recoloring was based entirely on one uniform element to another (helmets to jerseys, helmets to pants, etc), not specifically one jersey to another (as I've pointed out with the Packers).. 

 

I've also not used the term "color swapping" at all, because that's not what I prefer.. I've specifically said "a proper recoloring", which often requires adjustments to the striping pattern based on the background color, rather than simply swapping one color for another.. Sometimes it works out to be a color swap, but sometimes it doesn't.. LSU is an example of both (although consistent in the fact that the dark color is always on the outside) - from their helmets to their white jerseys is a color swap of white and gold, but from their helmets to their purple jerseys (And from white jerseys to purple jerseys), the colors are adjusted.. Gold moves from the middle to the outsides, while white is placed in the middle.. So things get shifted around to achieve the proper color balance and maintain a certain consistency.. 

My overall point has been that, in general, there are an equal amount of inconsistencies in those things which many view as "consistent" as many other alternatives, and simply illustrate that there are several ways to view and evaluate each situation, and often something just "looks better" - and that can be as good a reason as any to go with that option..

[Brown1]

9 minutes ago, WavePunter said:

Because the striping patterns are entirely different.. The helmet and pants feature a 3-stripe pattern, while the jerseys feature a  5-stripe pattern.. The helmets and pants differ in that the helmet has the lighter color sandwiched between the darker color, while the pants feature the darker color sandwiched between the lighter color.. Because one jersey features the darker color as the outer color, while the other features the lighter color as the outer color.. Those are areas that could (and often do) get considered for "consistency", but are lacking here.. So, while yes, these two jerseys simply swap brown and white, my overall point regarding recoloring was based entirely on one uniform element to another (helmets to jerseys, helmets to pants, etc), not specifically one jersey to another (as I've pointed out with the Packers).. 

 

I've also not used the term "color swapping" at all, because that's not what I prefer.. I've specifically said "a proper recoloring", which often requires adjustments to the striping pattern based on the background color, rather than simply swapping one color for another.. Sometimes it works out to be a color swap, but sometimes it doesn't.. LSU is an example of both (although consistent in the fact that the dark color is always on the outside) - from their helmets to their white jerseys is a color swap of white and gold, but from their helmets to their purple jerseys (And from white jerseys to purple jerseys), the colors are adjusted.. Gold moves from the middle to the outsides, while white is placed in the middle.. So things get shifted around to achieve the proper color balance and maintain a certain consistency.. 

My overall point has been that, in general, there are an equal amount of inconsistencies in those things which many view as "consistent" as many other alternatives, and simply illustrate that there are several ways to view and evaluate each situation, and often something just "looks better" - and that can be as good a reason as any to go with that option..

The the two browns uniforms are a color swap of each other. They swap brown and white. They are exactly the same with that swap. That makes the two uniforms consistent. 

 

You’re also talking about two teams who had and have a history of having essentially the same uniforms forever. Do you think manufacturers even offered 5 stripe pants back then? Or was that 3 stripe more of the industry standard at the time? We are talking about uniforms designed in what, the 1950s? 

 

You are getting way to into this arguing that jerseys designed 70 years ago didn’t stick to being 100% consistent in an era where guys uniforms didn’t even match each other 100%.

[WavePunter]

3 minutes ago, Brown1 said:

The the two browns uniforms are a color swap of each other. They swap brown and white. They are exactly the same with that swap. That makes the two uniforms consistent. 

 

You’re also talking about two teams who had and have a history of having essentially the same uniforms forever. Do you think manufacturers even offered 5 stripe pants back then? Or was that 3 stripe more of the industry standard at the time? We are talking about uniforms designed in what, the 1950s? 

 

You are getting way to into this arguing that jerseys designed 70 years ago didn’t stick to being 100% consistent in an era where guys uniforms didn’t even match each other 100%.

The uniforms may have been designed 70 years ago, but the same basic design has survived until very recently, so it's still relevant.

Plus, YES I think manufacturers offered 5-stripe designs back then, since you, yourself stated that the Browns' jerseys were designed back then.. It's a 5-stripe design..

Also, the brown jersey spent most of its existence with little brown stems separating the white and orange stripes, so it was a 9-stripe design if you count those little stems of brown as actual stripes (which I typically don't, but you seem to, so there's that..)

And lastly, if the uniforms have swapped colors, then there are elements that are different, and therefore inconsistent.. Leaving the stripes exactly the same would yield the MOST consistent results possible, but it wouldn't look great, which is why it's good that they did what they did..

You see, in trying to pigeon hole me as having certain preferences or putting words in my mouth, you're actually supporting my points.. 

Firstly - that there's more than one way to be "consistent", and secondly - that usually the most precisely "consistent" option isn't the best looking..

I haven't really advocated for or against any specific design styles apart from a passing comment that I prefer proper recoloring to trying to force consistency by adding outer stripes.. I've just advocated for open-mindedness regarding striping consistency, because as I've demonstrated, inconsistency is often created by trying to force consistency, so usually there's really no "perfect" option - just one that looks best and meets enough "consistency" criteria to be a good, logical choice, which is the case most of the time..

[Brown1]

11 minutes ago, WavePunter said:

The uniforms may have been designed 70 years ago, but the same basic design has survived until very recently, so it's still relevant.

Plus, YES I think manufacturers offered 5-stripe designs back then, since you, yourself stated that the Browns' jerseys were designed back then.. It's a 5-stripe design..

Also, the brown jersey spent most of its existence with little brown stems separating the white and orange stripes, so it was a 9-stripe design if you count those little stems of brown as actual stripes (which I typically don't, but you seem to, so there's that..)

And lastly, if the uniforms have swapped colors, then there are elements that are different, and therefore inconsistent.. Leaving the stripes exactly the same would yield the MOST consistent results possible, but it wouldn't look great, which is why it's good that they did what they did..

You see, in trying to pigeon hole me as having certain preferences or putting words in my mouth, you're actually supporting my points.. 

Firstly - that there's more than one way to be "consistent", and secondly - that usually the most precisely "consistent" option isn't the best looking..

I haven't really advocated for or against any specific design styles apart from a passing comment that I prefer proper recoloring to trying to force consistency by adding outer stripes.. I've just advocated for open-mindedness regarding striping consistency, because as I've demonstrated, inconsistency is often created by trying to force consistency, so usually there's really no "perfect" option - just one that looks best and meets enough "consistency" criteria to be a good, logical choice, which is the case most of the time..

The Browns jersey is just an old 3 stripe with the middles filled a different color. There wasn’t that many options in the 1950s. Plain, 3 stripe, Northwestern stripe, and UCLA strip would have been the standard template back then. So essentially the browns were wearing and the Packer wear essentially what is one the oldest universal maxims in football uniforms as the pants and helmets? I would even argue it’s still practiced today and almost every throwback uniform that comes to mind even in college has pants with the three stripe, no? 

So in a forum about universal maxims, you are pointing out two uniforms designed 70 years ago when the universal maxim for football pants was 3 stripe, 2 stripe, which was really a 3 stripe with the middle stripe matching the pants, single stripe, or no stripe. Show me who ever had 5 stripe pants 70 years ago. You THINK they offered 5 stripe pants, I’ve never seen them before, but I’d gladly love to see them! Cleveland went from a great, consistent, old school, classic, solid timeless uniform and killed it. The Packers have consistently carried on football tradition using the standard and most common and known striping pattern on their helmets and pants. They are two teams that up until recently basically define all the universal maxims of football. Triple stripe helmet, matching pants, black shoes, and “simple” uniforms which were technically had a lot going on when they were first designed. Those designs weren’t fads, those designs still live on. If that’s not doing a football uniform right, I dunno what is.