SFGiants58

MLB: The Defunct Saga - Montréal Expos Pt. II B Added ("M-Fleur-de-Lis")

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Great stuff!

 

Are you on the OOTP boards, SFGiants58? If so, can you upload these jerseys/logos/ballcaps?

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I got an idea for the Carolina Twins. Put them in Raleigh and call them the Triplets after the Research Triangle, keep the red, brighten the blue to Duke's royal blue, and add carolina blue.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/21/2019 at 10:00 PM, mcrosby said:

What about an monogram with a similar C to the current Twins C but with an N on top and C on the bottom? 

 

I thought about that, but I'd want an "S" in that insignia (for having the name make sense). That just sounds way too busy.

 

On 3/21/2019 at 11:17 PM, QueenCitySwarm said:

I can guarantee you that the Canes would have had just as little success, since Raleigh isn't anywhere close to the border, so any SC fans wouldn't care anyways, be it a "regional" team or not. The Panthers might be a different case, however. The whole "One Carolina" thing really caught on in 2015, and I'm not sure the team would've had the widespread success it does without appealing to the whole region. 

 

And yeah, that stadium proposal is ridiculous. In fact, if they were looking at the Carolinas, I have no clue why Charlotte wasn't their number one choice. The city is constantly desperate to prove itself, and probably would've handed over lots of money for the stadium, even with BoA Stadium just having been built. However, I don't see them going with the name Twins if they had moved to Charlotte, just because of the history of the Knights name.

 

Yeah, the Canes are kind of a mess in that regard. I'm glad to know that the "One Carolina" marketing has caught on to some extent, which I hope will eventually dispel the myth that "the panther in the logo is in the silhouette of the state of North Carolina." I know there are many who don't like "One Carolina," but I can see why it's liked.

 

Charlotte will be coming up for the Marlins Park lead-up, where the Knights name will probably show up (as a new sobriquet after Loria sells the team). 

 

On 3/22/2019 at 3:29 AM, NicDB said:

It's not like a team called the Triplets is completely unheard of. But I also didn't think about the possibility of having Twins to mean the "twin" Carolinas.

Maybe I just don't like this because I'm having such a hard time wrapping my head around how this was even supposed to work in the first place.  This has to be the most random spot anyone has ever tried to put a major pro franchise.

 

Ah, I didn't know about that one. Still, the name might be a bit of a push. 

 

I also hold that the Triad plan may have been the stupidest relocation plan to ever get as far as it did. The Triad has the population numbers, but exurban baseball stadiums rarely go right.

 

On 3/22/2019 at 12:41 PM, teeray01 said:

https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/general-baseball/history-of-the-game/79207-a-successful-continental-league

Maybe not relevant to this topic but this proposed third major league impacted expansion and relocation in the MLB.  Would be cool to see your take on this at some point.

 

The Continental League might be a good idea some day.

 

On 3/22/2019 at 12:52 PM, coco1997 said:

The new primary for the "1960s revival" set and the updated cap logo for the Metrodome set are big improvements. Definitely an example of less being more. 

 

Thanks!

 

On 3/23/2019 at 11:07 PM, MSO94 said:

So is the only thing changed on the "Map Logo" is switching the three points upsidedown ?

 

Yes, while also moving the location to better reflect where the Piedmont Triad is in real life (thanks, @sc49erfan15). I flipped the star to reflect how High Point is south of both Greensboro and Winston-Salem.

 

On 3/25/2019 at 7:55 PM, PowderedWater said:

Who is the dude anyway?

On 3/26/2019 at 3:49 PM, Carolingian Steamroller said:


The rest of us trying to figure that out...

8db1b0cb-8d48-4450-8fbf-93efcf1789dd_scr

On 3/26/2019 at 3:17 PM, Discrimihater said:

He can speak Japanese...in Serbian.

His right eyebrow has experienced more thrills than a lesser man's entire body.

He can see John Cena.

He is...the Most Interesting Man in the World.:ninja:

 

Well, you are right about the Japanese part. I've explained it during my Tampa Bay Stingrays concept, but it's worth repeating here.

 

kv0gTG6.jpg

 

I'm a tokusatsu fan, one whose favorite color is green. I opted to use my favorite green senshi from Super Sentai, Hayate from Seijuu Sentai Gingaman! Here are a few of my favorite episodes of his (Chapters 10, 16, and 31). For those curious, he's the original version of Damon Henderson from Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy (a markedly different character). 

 

Gingaman is one of my favorite recommendations for people getting into Sentai (Battle Fever JChangeman, Maskman, Liveman, JetmanCarranger, and GoGoV are also good choices, with Turboranger joining the bunch when subtitles are done).

 

On 3/27/2019 at 6:33 AM, RMc said:

Great stuff!

 

Are you on the OOTP boards, SFGiants58? If so, can you upload these jerseys/logos/ballcaps?

 

Thanks! I'm not on OOTP, but I'm more than happy for posters to use my concepts with permission.

 

On 3/27/2019 at 12:38 PM, TrueYankee26 said:

I got an idea for the Carolina Twins. Put them in Raleigh and call them the Triplets after the Research Triangle, keep the red, brighten the blue to Duke's royal blue, and add carolina blue.

 

I like the way you're thinking, but I really don't think that'd work. The Hurricanes' stint in Raleigh has not exactly been a ringing endorsement for that city, at least compared to Charlotte. I'm also not even sure how much local media "pushes" the Research Triangle as one area, given what I've learned (e.g., Mac the Knife's posts on the region's demographics). 

 

Anyway, I'm starting the next series today!

Edited by SFGiants58
Repaired broken image link

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Posted (edited)

The end of the Montréal Expos was not a pretty sight. After the attempted contraction and the sale of the team to MLB, the majors sought to shop the team around. Getting a stadium done in Montréal with public money was out of the question for several reasons, such as:

 

-the lingering effects of the Canadian recession in the 1990s, meaning public money was off the table

-the negative impact of Quebec Separatism on the province’s economy, especially after the failed independence referendum  

-bad experiences from the public money boondoggle that was Le Stade Olympique, the venue that owners blamed for the market’s failure (which is understandable)1

 

When conducting research for this series, it became clear that it was Washington DC’s team to lose, with Peter Angelos and some city council issues briefly being a concern. However, that didn’t mean that other ownership groups sought to bring baseball to their respective municipalities, no matter how unrealistic their chances were to land the team. Many of these locations also tried to lure the Marlins several years later, while the Expos’ former owner Jeff Loria tried to blackmail taxpayers into gifting him a new venue. Therefore, my concepts here will apply for both attempts (since all but one involve significant rebrands). Any Marlins-specific locations will have later releases (e.g., Charlotte and San Antonio).2

 

There are three categories of potential relocations here. These include:

 

Pipe Dreams: cities outside of the United States and places with well-established teams nearby with greater clout than Angelos. These are San Juan in Puerto Rico, Monterrey in México, East Rutherford, and the Hartford-New Haven Corridor.3

 

Semi-realistic Options: places that had no well-established teams nearby and could have possibly supported the team. These cities are Portland and Las Vegas.4

 

Virginia Variety: the statewide wrangling over where to build the stadium to avoid the fury of Peter Angelos/negotiate DC’s city politics. These sites include Norfolk, Northern Virginia, and an exploration of another identity for DC’s new team.5

 

Welcome to Youppi’s Lament.

 

8E4LyAs.png

 

1 Jonathan Kay, “Separatism and the Expos,” NINE: A Journal of Baseball History and Culture 12, no. 1 (July 24, 2003): 153–55, https://doi.org/10.1353/nin.2003.0044; Jonathan Kay, “Separatism Killed the Expos - National Post Wednesday,” Intégration et religion, October 23, 2002, https://vigile.quebec/archives/ds-societe/docs3/02-10-23-kay-racisme.html; Linda Kay, “Expos Unable to Escape Quebec’s Political Tumult,” Chicago Tribune, July 29, 1990, https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1990-07-29-9003040407-story.html; Jonah Keri, Up, Up, and Away: The Kid, the Hawk, Rock, Vladi, Pedro, Le Grand Orange, Youppi!, The Crazy Business of Baseball, and the Ill-Fated but Unforgettable Montreal Expos, Reprint edition (Toronto, ON: Vintage Canada, 2015).

 

2 Charles Elmore, “Stadium Roulette Opening-Day Ritual,” The Palm Beach Post, April 12, 2006, sec. Sports; Bart Hubbuch, “Trouble in Paradise Devil Rays, Marlins Are Struggling,” The Florida Times-Union, March 5, 2006; John Hunt, “Portland’s Prospects Fading for MLB Team,” The Oregonian, April 16, 2006, sec. Sports; Barry Jackson, “Oklahoma City Move Is in the Talking Stage,” The Miami Herald, February 17, 2006, sec. Sports; AP, “Loria: Marlins’ Talks about San Antonio Move ‘Serious,’” ESPN, April 2, 2006, http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2394322.

 

3 John Brennan, “N.J. Would Welcome Homeless Baseball Team,” The Record, December 16, 2004, sec. News; Thom Loverro, “One Man’s Dream: To Bring Expos to San Juan for Good,” The Washington Times, April 15, 2003, sec. Sports; Robert Miller, “Developer Pitches - Expos for Connecticut,” The News-Times, March 18, 2004, sec. Local, https://infoweb.newsbank.com/apps/news/document-view?p=NewsBank&t=&sort=YMD_date%3AD&fld-base-0=alltext&maxresults=20&val-base-0="Connecticut colonials" baseball&docref=news/10AC765C9D854810; Steve Popper, “BASEBALL; Mexican Group Is Latest To Seek to Draw the Expos,” The New York Times, August 5, 2003, sec. Sports, https://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/sports/baseball-mexican-group-is-latest-to-seek-to-draw-the-expos.html.

 

AP, “The Dreamers in Las Vegas Awaken and See the Expos,” The New York Times, May 23, 2004, sec. Baseball, https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/sports/baseball/the-dreamers-in-las-vegas-awaken-and-see-the-expos.html; AP, “Portland Makes Pitch for Expos,” Los Angeles Times, January 26, 2003, https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-jan-26-sp-dogportland26-story.html; Tracy Ringolsby, “Expos: Non in Mon Back Yard - Territorial Threats - Especially Fears by the Yankees - Could Shut out Washington Again,” Rocky Mountain News, April 16, 2004, sec. Sports.

 

5 Ronald Blum and AP, “Expos’ Final Four Hardly a Slam Dunk - Northern Va., D.C., Las Vegas, Norfolk Make Cut as Owners Meet,” Houston Chronicle, August 19, 2004, sec. Sports; Dave Fairbank, “Mogul Puts Local Face on Effort to Draw Team,” Daily Press, August 5, 2004, sec. A-section; Eric Fisher, “Baseball Looks at N.Va. Ballpark Plan,” The Washington Times, August 7, 2004, sec. Sports; Keri, Up, Up, and Away.

 

Edited by SFGiants58
Corrections - East Rutherford, not Newark and Hartford-New Haven Corridor, not Hartford

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49 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Yeah, the Canes are kind of a mess in that regard. I'm glad to know that the "One Carolina" marketing has caught on to some extent, which I hope will eventually dispel the myth that "the panther in the logo is in the silhouette of the state of North Carolina." I know there are many who don't like "One Carolina," but I can see why it's liked.

 

Charlotte will be coming up for the Marlins Park lead-up, where the Knights name will probably show up (as a new sobriquet after Loria sells the team). 

I've always thought the Panther was in the shape of North and South Carolina, if you tilt it a bit. I'm not the biggest fan of "One Carolina" myself, but I think it serves its purpose well. Plus, the SC government is trying to get a bill pushed through for major tax breaks for the Panthers to move their practice HQ to SC (since we're building a new, indoors one), so it seems like outside of the areas that are right near Georgia, SC has adopted the team as their own.

 

I've always felt that if Charlotte were to get a team, it would be either the Rays or Marlins, since they could feasibly move to Charlotte without any realignment issues, and they've been historically poor with attendance. I'm personally hoping that either the Rays stadium issues get dragged out long enough to where replacing BB&T Ballpark for a major league stadium isn't an issue, or that the Marlins continue to just kinda flounder around in Miami until whoever owns the team in 2030 or whenever moves the team, where Charlotte would be a great choice. (Plus, David Tepper seems to be looking to increase his influence in the region, seeking an MLS team in addition to the Panthers, so he could own the Charlotte MLB team as well, if that ever comes to pass.)

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the disaster of Montreal's relocation!

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SAN JUAN EXPOS - Temporary Temptation

 

This pipe dream may have seemed reasonable enough on the outset. It’s well-known that the Expos played 22 games per season in San Juan, Puerto Rico for their final two years. Much like the White Sox did in Milwaukee roughly thirty years prior, it was likely an attempt to test the waters for relocation. Various promoters, like Charles Vaughn and Antonio Munoz (the men who organized the venture), wanted to make the arrangement permanent. However, their bid was discounted by MLB during the debates over relocation.1 But why?

 

While the games at Hiram Bithorn Stadium were initially well-attended, the whole venture proved to be a bit of a misadventure for the players and MLB. The effect of all the additional air travel fueled complaints from players, while the novelty of MLB began to wear off for the Puerto Ricans. Attendance dropped, and despite the promoters’ best efforts, they couldn’t ignore these obstacles facing full-time baseball in San Juan. Add into that the economic obstacles (in the words of The Washington Times writer Thom Loverro - , “median household income is about $9,000 and an estimated 45 percent of families operate below the poverty line”), and a permanent stay in Puerto Rico (with a new stadium) wasn’t going to happen.2

 

However, what if MLB believed Puerto Rico to be a serious option, attendance didn’t fall off, and the promoters got to build their stadium in San Juan?

 

I figured that the name and colors would stay, if only for “brand equity” purposes. Despite this, the team would adopt some local touches. These include a greater emphasis on red throughout their uniforms, as well as a shift back to the Clarendon font from the team’s first uniforms.The font works well with the architecture throughout the citywhile also setting them apart from the Mets and Cubs.

 

I adapted the crest of San Juan (including the St. George’s cross held by the lamb) for the primary. The elements include the crest’s castle tower, the team insignia (based off of the 1960s/70s San Juan Senadores and the San José Giants, with the split colors of the eMb), a baseball, and an outline of the city (from here) with a star over the stadium’s location. The insignia forms the secondary, while an update of the San Juan Senadores’ crest  appears as a tertiary.

 

5k3DElw.png

 

Project 32’s Expos concept forms the base of this one, with the home cursive script giving way to the “SJ EXPOS” design. A “San Juan” script is now on the road uniform. Red brims are on all the caps, while the front numbers and NoB’s are red with royal outlines.

 

vVUs9LW.png

 

The alternates include a red jersey with the old cursive script and a blue top with the insignia.

 

cXKDIX5.png

 

The second set of alts feature a pinwheel cap and a fauxback for Roberto Clemente Day. This uniform Expos-ifies several designs Clemente wore as the Senadores’ manager, with the crest-inspired tertiary as a sleeve patch  and the piping/pinstripes of the later aesthetic.

 

2gD2lLy.png

 

The jacket employs the road script, along with red sleeves.

 

kFvnTV0.png

 

Moving the team to San Juan, with all of the economic and travel concerns, was an awful plan. Still, the Expos could have kept their look without too many alterations. C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Up next, we go a bit further north.

 

1 Ronald Blum and AP, “Expos’ Final Four Hardly a Slam Dunk - Northern Va., D.C., Las Vegas, Norfolk Make Cut as Owners Meet,” Houston Chronicle, August 19, 2004, sec. Sports; Eric Fisher, “Expos Sinking Fast in Puerto Rico,” The Washington Times, April 25, 2004, sec. Sports/Sports Biz; Eric Fisher, “Baseball Looks at N.Va. Ballpark Plan,” The Washington Times, August 7, 2004, sec. Sports; Thom Loverro, “One Man’s Dream: To Bring Expos to San Juan for Good,” The Washington Times, April 15, 2003, sec. Sports.

 

Andrew G. Clem, “Clem’s Baseball ~ Hiram Bithorn Stadium,” Clem’s Baseball, June 1, 2016, http://www.andrewclem.com/Baseball/HiramBithornStadium.html; Dave Fairbank, “Expos’ Only Constant Is Uncertainty,” Daily Press, July 13, 2004, sec. Sports; Fisher, “Expos Sinking Fast in Puerto Rico”; Loverro, “One Man’s Dream: To Bring Expos to San Juan for Good.”

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Naive early-20s me so wanted this to happen, if staying Montreal couldn't, and this makes that me so happy. Excellent work.

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At last, the Expos!

 

Great start to this portion of the series. I really dig the interlocking “SJ” logo, and the Clemente Day alternate is a gem.

 

Looking forward to more!

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Oh boy, the Expos are here to show the relocation committee how it's done.

 

They'll relocate to anywhere except to Montreal.

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Thanks, guys!

 

On 3/31/2019 at 7:42 PM, Whittier S said:

Naive early-20s me so wanted this to happen, if staying Montreal couldn't, and this makes that me so happy. Excellent work.

 

Thanks! Moving to Puerto Rico, at face value, seemed like a good idea. However, the 44 home games that the Expos played in San Juan were an effective argument against the proposal. Speaking of which, I found some video from one of the San Juan games.

 

 

Understandably, MLB's YouTube page doesn't pay much attention to this little "experiment" from '03-'04.

 

On 3/31/2019 at 11:10 PM, coco1997 said:

At last, the Expos!

 

Great start to this portion of the series. I really dig the interlocking “SJ” logo, and the Clemente Day alternate is a gem.

 

Looking forward to more!

 

Thank you!

 

On 4/1/2019 at 3:38 PM, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

Oh boy, the Expos are here to show the relocation committee how it's done.

 

They'll relocate to anywhere except to Montreal.

 

Yeah, Montréal was just not going to survive all that the separatists, MLB/Loria, the Canadian recession (which also claimed the Grizzlies), and a few poor ownership groups did to the market. 

 

On 4/1/2019 at 4:21 PM, DNAsports said:

Try to make a logo where the S is nestled in the J

 

I thought about that, but the Clarendon-style "J" just looked awkward with the extra-condensed "S."

 

Anyway, let's finally get to the other Latin American team!

 

MONTERREY SULTANES - Mountain of Madness

 

The next of the “pipe dream” locations was south of the border, down Monterrey way. Monterrey was one of the sites originally considered for the Expos’ 22 “home” games in 2003, as they had one of the most major league-ready stadiums at the time (the 27,000 seat Monterrey Stadium/Estadio de Béisbol Monterrey, which would be expanded to 30,000 upon a team’s permanent arrival). However, the choice of San Juan didn’t dissuade Monterrey from making an official bid for the Expos in 2003.1

 

Carlos Bremer led a group of other Mexican businessmen to purchase the Expos and relocate them to Monterrey. They argued that they had the best stadium in Latin America and that team in Mexico would be good for baseball. The city had a population of about 4 million people, a decent economic status and elevation (0..54 kilometers/1,772 feet., which is relatively close to Arizona's 0.32 kilometers/1,059 feet), and was close enough to the Texas teams to get some consideration (unlike the travel and elevation nightmare known as La Ciudad de México). Ultimately, MLB passed on Monterrey. Why?

 

crm-cszueaat0ur.jpg

 

(Estadio de Béisbol Monterrey, with the Cerro de la Silla in the background.)

 

Moving to Monterrey, both in 2003/2004 and today would be a terrible idea for several reasons. 

  • Travel, while not as bad as some distances (e.g., Seattle to St. Petersburg at 5112.89 km/3177 miles - Seattle-Monterrey is 3,762 km/2,337.6 miles and St. Petersburg-Monterrey is 2,345.62 km/1,457.5 miles.), would not be ideal when compared to locations like DC, Portland, Las Vegas, and New Jersey/Connecticut. 
  • If the exchange rate was proving a problem for the Blue Jays and Expos with the Canadian Dollar, imagine the issues it would create for the Peso. The team would have to be a lower-budget operation and could struggle with luring free agents.
  • Security would also be a difficulty, due to the cartels and their activity in northern Mexico. Said difficulties would likely turn away many free agents and draftees signing contracts.

Despite what many have claimed over the years, expansion to Mexico would prove to be a boondoggle of the highest order. But what if MLB had a brain fart and decided that “growing the game” would be a brilliant idea?

 

I figured this would be the perfect opportunity to “promote” the traditional name of Monterrey’s baseball teams, the Sultanes (Sultans). Kelly and red are the new colors, per the Mexican flag and Monterrey’s city crest/flag. I figured it’d be both unique and regionally-appropriate. 
 

The primary logo uses a roundel with Batesina Atheltica text (I like the mix of edges and curviness), an image of the Cerro de la Silla (a large mountain within the city), and a simplifed version of the crown from the city’s crest/flag. The secondary is a merger of my Expos’ insignia and the Cerro de la Silla (akin to the current edition of the team), while the tertiary is a cursive script-based version of the primary.

 

WKpvy00.png

 

Uniforms are similar to the San Juan design, albeit with some modifications to fit with a “kelly and red never touch” approach. The scripts feature green text with red underlines (and white outlines), with Batesina Athletica numbers and Rawlings Block Bold NOB’s. The socks feature white/red/white stripes, while the home and road sleeves/pants have green/white/red trim. 

 

fR2x06Y.png

 

The alternates include both red and green jerseys, with the reds featuring a red-crowned cap and red socks. The green shirt includes the insignia and the tertiary on the sleeve. 

 

uMO7CT1.png

 

My jacket design features shoulder inserts and green/white/red striping on the trim sections.

 

RA6EHYj.png

 

While moving the team to Monterrey would have been a terrible idea, the ex-Expos could have drawn upon local baseball history for a fantastic identity. C+C is appreciated, as always!

Up next, we’ve got an idea that look sweet on paper but sour in reality.
 

1 Ronald Blum and AP, “Expos’ Final Four Hardly a Slam Dunk - Northern Va., D.C., Las Vegas, Norfolk Make Cut as Owners Meet,” Houston Chronicle, August 19, 2004, sec. Sports; Paul LaRocco, “Is Major League Baseball in State Just a Field of Dreams?,” Record-Journal, May 14, 2004; Steve Popper, “BASEBALL; Mexican Group Is Latest To Seek to Draw the Expos,” The New York Times, August 5, 2003, sec. Sports, https://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/sports/baseball-mexican-group-is-latest-to-seek-to-draw-the-expos.html; Tracy Ringolsby, “Expos: Non in Mon Back Yard - Territorial Threats - Especially Fears by the Yankees - Could Shut out Washington Again,” Rocky Mountain News, April 16, 2004, sec. Sports. 

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And now batting for the Monterrey Sultanes, Center Fielder, Number 34, Bryce Harper.

 

Or, considering this is in Mexico, the PA would be speaking Spanish.

 

I like the identity and the graphics, but I think this idea would've been doomed from the start. I'm not going to repeat what you said, because you brought up a lot of valid points (location, money, violence, drugs, etc.)

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I just want to chime in quickly to say that I've lurked on this thread for a while, and have loved both the creativity and the history lesson - as a Milwaukee resident I had no idea about the Cardinals almost relocating. It almost gave me sympathy for them... almost. 

 

Thanks for all the work you're doing on these concepts - they are works of art. 

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Would be interesting if you took a stab at updating their actual primary logo rather than the roundal. Otherwise it looks great! I love that script.

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The Expos and Sultanes are both great looks! I love how you divided up the colors in both sets. Wonderful work as always.

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Great work on the Sultanes! I love the pallete, and it's a strong balance of traditional with modern cleanliness. The only thing that's hard for me to unsee, is if I turn the logo 90 degrees to the right, Cerro de la Silla looks like the profile of a face. 😳

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