SFGiants58

MLB: The Defunct Saga - Norfolk Destroyers Added

Recommended Posts

The keystone P logo, I feel like would make a solid hat logo for an alternate jersey...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

This is the first of a big series of updates!

 

Up first, the Philadelphia Athletics!

 

When I first did the Athletics nearly a year ago, I opted for a straight mashup of my Oakland A's concept with the Philadelphia-appropriate colors. However, after doing a litany of A's concepts, I became acutely aware of how slip-shod the mashup was.

 

The problems started with the A's Kansas City/Oakland elephant logo. I've been over this before, but this rendering is terrible. The line weights and details are all over the place, it doesn't shrink all that well, and has no real way to incorporate a "civic" identity. I have ameliorated this problem:

 

kJi9yEa.png

 

The lines are thicker, with consistent weights and better detailing. The ball stitches have also been redone, with a civic logo on the roundel (in this case, the keystone with an Old English P). I've also tweaked the heraldry design from the Louisville/Kansas City/Denver concepts, incorporating details from the 1930 press pin in a more dynamic logo.

 

r27jl8i.png

 

The Old English wordmarks have also received clean-up, with italics replaced with a half-arch design.

 

SY3dFiX.png

 

These tweaks have all been incorporated into the original designs. The keystone design of the original has become a tertiary, with the heraldry elephant and the "19 A 01" text.

 

1954BwT.png

 

1gF3EWe.png

 

dJm9cYC.png

 

6uu3F1F.png

 

The road variants have also returned, with both "Phila" and "Philadelphia" half-arched wordmarks alongside radially-arched "PHILA" logos (both with and without placket trim).

 

ZCJpS0N.pngKOjbmKW.png

 

I think that it's a cleaner look, giving the classic designs a cleaner style. 

 

Up next, the LA A's get a big overhaul (per @coco1997's excellent suggestion)!

 

The "P" on the road jersey and the "Phila" script are about how I would imagine the A's had they managed to stay in Philadelphia. Of course, I can't help but wonder what would've happened to the Phillies had the A's stayed instead...would Philly be a two-team town, or would it be the Philles franchise that pulls up stakes?

 

I have another update to my obscure "Twins to Salt Lake" rumor...here's my original post on the matter:

On 11/23/2018 at 10:48 AM, DustDevil61 said:

 

As extensive and oftentimes obscure as some of the teams in this thread have been (I never knew that the A’s were looking at Dallas or San Diego, for instance), there’s another, very-briefly-considered (I think temporary) move considered: Around 1998-99 or so, the Twins were looking to to effectively swap places with their top affiliate, then the Salt Lake Buzz (now the Bees), while they either renovated the Metrodome or built a new stadium. What this likely meant was that the MLB Twins franchise would move to Utah for about two seasons and take upon them the Buzz name while the AAA Salt Lake franchise moved to play at a smaller ballpark in the Twin Cities. I remember seeing this on a local Salt Lake-based sports show with “Minnesota” in the Twins logo crossed out with “Utah?” above it while the sportscaster who reported on it described the two-year swap situation. I even asked the same broadcaster via Twitter who I recall talking about it, but even he couldn’t remember anything. Another rumor was that then-owner of the Utah Jazz, Larry H. Miller, was considering buying the Twins and moving them to Salt Lake around that time (probably naming them the Bees as he didn’t own the franchise then). Maybe there was some truth to both rumors, and it is very obscure (I can’t find anything online about it, but I clearly remember the Utah? Minnesota Twins logo and the report on the proposed two-year swap even when I saw it almost 20 years ago)...

 

I totally understand if there’s not enough meat to this potential relocation to warrant a concept about it, but I think it’d be awesome to see how the uniforms could’ve turned out had such an odd situation happened (after the Tampa sweepstakes and whatever you have planned for the rest of the series, of course).

 

 

I dug up a June 1998 article from the Salt Lake-based Deseret News which offers a few more details (but still lists the rumor as nothing more than a "pipe dream"), such as one rumor saying that the Twins were Utah-bound as early as 1999. It also mentions that the Twins franchise would spend a 1- or 2-year layover in Salt Lake before moving to North Carolina permanently, or--as I recall--returning to Minnesota.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, coco1997 said:

Nice update to the Phila A’s.

 

Excited to see how you apply my suggestion for the LA A’s!

 

Thanks and I'm sure you'll like it!

 

8 hours ago, KittSmith_95 said:

Been a while since I posted in this thread, but you keep killing it. 

BTW, I now want to see a Brewers concept with the shades of Blue & Yellow/Gold used here.... so pretty. 

 

Thanks, it's fab to have you back. You're right, I should apply these shades to one of my Brewers designs. The dark royal would work well for them.

 

5 hours ago, chcarlson23 said:

The keystone P logo, I feel like would make a solid hat logo for an alternate jersey...

 

Thanks! I'm not keen on using the full keystone for the alternates, but it could work well on a BP design.

 

4 hours ago, DustDevil61 said:

The "P" on the road jersey and the "Phila" script are about how I would imagine the A's had they managed to stay in Philadelphia. Of course, I can't help but wonder what would've happened to the Phillies had the A's stayed instead...would Philly be a two-team town, or would it be the Philles franchise that pulls up stakes?

 

I have another update to my obscure "Twins to Salt Lake" rumor...here's my original post on the matter:

 

I dug up a June 1998 article from the Salt Lake-based Deseret News which offers a few more details (but still lists the rumor as nothing more than a "pipe dream"), such as one rumor saying that the Twins were Utah-bound as early as 1999. It also mentions that the Twins franchise would spend a 1- or 2-year layover in Salt Lake before moving to North Carolina permanently, or--as I recall--returning to Minnesota.

 

 

Thanks! I'd assume that if the A's stayed, it'd be at the expense of the Phillies. I assumed that the Carpenter family would have bought the A's instead of the Phillies during the 1930s in my timeline, leaving the Phillies to move and/or fold due to monetary problems. Unless some ownership group (like one of the ones mentioned in "Departure Without Dignity" who tried to save the A's) stepped in, I see them moving somewhere like Kansas City (maybe Oakland as a subsequent destination) or becoming the New York Mets after the Giants/Dodgers leave.

 

Thanks for digging up that article! I've been looking forward to doing a Salt Lake concept at some point. 

 

LOS ANGELES ATHLETICS, REDUX - Rojo Revival

 

The Athletics' attempted move to Los Angeles, whose story I covered here, have long been one of my least favorite designs in the series. I felt that I didn't have much of an idea about their direction, what with the arched and script-style Old English wordmarks and the kelly/yellow color scheme. It was during this thread that @coco1997 recommended a kelly/red/yellow color scheme. While I initially was doubtful about how well that would work, I figured that I should give it a try. Building off of that initial idea (and experiences with the Monterrey Sultanes), I have employed my tweaked elephant designs to the task!

 

The primary is the updated elephant, with the Los Angeles flag colors. The secondaries are the insignias, which include an interlocking "LA" and an updated "A's" design (with some inspiration from @mcrosby's work). We now have a tertiary logo that adopts a heraldry design, with the elephant on top and an alternating pattern of insignias and suns.

 

4Tg8KqH.png

 

Double outlines are the main drawing point of the uniforms, with green not touching red and yellow not bordering white. The caps have green crowns, gold insignias, and red bills/buttons. Home uniforms feature the "A's" insignia, while the road set uses the half-arched "Los Angeles" wordmark.

 

1GuPRA3.png

 

The alternates include one set with a red jersey bearing the "Athletics" logo, red socks (with adjusted stripes), and a red cap containing the "LA" insignia. A green jersey also manifests itself with the tertiary on the sleeve.

 

PZW1Qsz.png

 

A yellow-gold jersey also appears (with white touching yellow, as a small exception to the rules), as well as the Arnold Johnson-style uniform from the original concept.

 

P5bEON7.png

 

The primary jacket has been upgraded to match the rest of the set.

 

fRjLA1c.pngqZeUEbB.png

 

I'm markedly happier with this design than I was with the original. C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Up next, two heraldry upgrades and few additional tweaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm gonna disagree on you here, I really liked your previous LA Athletics set and I don't think it needed much changing. The red doesn't really work imo and muddles up everything. I liked your original arched Athletics script on the old set. But the updated ones don't look bad either. All in all it reminds me a lot of the Pirates when they forced red into their color scheme. Which was a big strikeout. 

On the other hand, you knocked the Philadelphia set out of the park, fantastic work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get what you're going for with the LA Athletics concept, but I think there's way too many competing colors. Red, green, and gold are all very strong colors, and you add white to the mix (rather than allowing gold to be the 'neutral' light color), and the colors all wind up competing and clashing with one another.

 

To be honest, the red jersey reminds me on the Pirates' infamous red vest - it looks like red was shoehorned into what's otherwise a very nice dark-color-and-gold identity.

 

The Philadelphia Athletics identity, on the other hand, is sheer perfection. To the point that I wish the A's stayed in Philly as the long-dominant team in that city, and we got to see that identity to come fruition in reality. It'd be considered as classic today as many of the surviving 'original 16' teams' identities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the red alternate for the A's looks weird, what with green and yellow being so minimally used, but other than that, I think the LA set looks fantastic. I think limiting red all around would help the set, but I like the color scheme a lot and I don't think you should ditch red entirely. The Philly set also looks great and both of your elephant updates are beautiful. Great stuff!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

spacer.png

 

Love this update to the LA A’s! I think the addition of red really screams “Los Angeles” in a way the original green & gold version did not. My only nitpick is that the gold alt is the only option that doesn’t use double outlines, so I’d add a green outline to the front numbers and a red outline to the chest logo and back numbers. Regardless, I’m extremely flattered you implemented my idea!

 

Any chance a “Nintendo-fied” Mariners design will be part of this round of updates?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, coco1997 said:

spacer.png

 

Love this update to the LA A’s! I think the addition of red really screams “Los Angeles” in a way the original green & gold version did not. My only nitpick is that the gold alt is the only option that doesn’t use double outlines, so I’d add a green outline to the front numbers and a red outline to the chest logo and back numbers. Regardless, I’m extremely flattered you implemented my idea!

 

Any chance a “Nintendo-fied” Mariners design will be part of this round of updates?

 

Thanks! I tried the double-outlined gold jersey, but I really didn't like it.

 

ExxCZJI.png

 

However, I have used the original gold jersey concept to de-intensify the red (per @BellaSpurs and @kroywen's suggestions). Following the lead of my New Orleans A's concept, there are no double outlines.

 

1Shjbo3.png3lvBKLg.png

5PxOSu6.png5PfKVtA.png

WdL6vIN.png

 

It's definitely cleaner! I still kind of prefer kelly/yellow.

 

With the "Nintendo-ified" Mariners, I still have yet to find an idea that would really work with the concept. Besides, it would probably be its own thread.

 

20 hours ago, BellaSpurs said:

I'm gonna disagree on you here, I really liked your previous LA Athletics set and I don't think it needed much changing. The red doesn't really work imo and muddles up everything. I liked your original arched Athletics script on the old set. But the updated ones don't look bad either. All in all it reminds me a lot of the Pirates when they forced red into their color scheme. Which was a big strikeout. 

On the other hand, you knocked the Philadelphia set out of the park, fantastic work!

17 hours ago, kroywen said:

I get what you're going for with the LA Athletics concept, but I think there's way too many competing colors. Red, green, and gold are all very strong colors, and you add white to the mix (rather than allowing gold to be the 'neutral' light color), and the colors all wind up competing and clashing with one another.

 

To be honest, the red jersey reminds me on the Pirates' infamous red vest - it looks like red was shoehorned into what's otherwise a very nice dark-color-and-gold identity.

 

The Philadelphia Athletics identity, on the other hand, is sheer perfection. To the point that I wish the A's stayed in Philly as the long-dominant team in that city, and we got to see that identity to come fruition in reality. It'd be considered as classic today as many of the surviving 'original 16' teams' identities.

 

Thanks! Yeah, the Pirates' red vest comparison is fairly fitting. The red kind of distracts from the green/yellow/white setup, producing a busy mess. I've got a kelly/yellow version right here, which should clean the concept up considerably. I've also returned the "LA" insignia to the road alternate.

 

7Bt5wb1.pngIeM1hKw.png

2peha0p.pngPcrcPHz.png

n1q5IpN.png

 

I like it without the red, as the kelly shade I use (349 C, the same as the early-80s Philadelphia Eagles) is dark enough to contrast with the yellow-gold. 

 

Thanks for liking the Philadelphia A's updates! Doing these defunct restorations does make me a little curious about seeing how history would have played out had some of these teams stayed in place (e.g., the A's in Philly or the Giants/Dodgers in the New York Metropolitan Area).

 

17 hours ago, ItDoesntMatter said:

I agree that the red alternate for the A's looks weird, what with green and yellow being so minimally used, but other than that, I think the LA set looks fantastic. I think limiting red all around would help the set, but I like the color scheme a lot and I don't think you should ditch red entirely. The Philly set also looks great and both of your elephant updates are beautiful. Great stuff!

 

Thanks!

 

I've also mocked up a simulation of what would have happened had Charlie O settled the team in Anaheim and opted for the Autry/Disney branding convention/what might have happened had Gene Autry bought the team off of Arnold Johnson.

 

AtOFikm.png JGICmhO.png

 

Up next, I get some "housecleaning" out of the way for Kansas City.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Thanks! Yeah, the Pirates' red vest comparison is fairly fitting. The red kind of distracts from the green/yellow/white setup, producing a busy mess. I've got a kelly/yellow version right here, which should clean the concept up considerably. I've also returned the "LA" insignia to the road alternate.

 

7Bt5wb1.pngIeM1hKw.png

2peha0p.pngPcrcPHz.png

n1q5IpN.png

 

I like it without the red, as the kelly shade I use (349 C, the same as the early-80s Philadelphia Eagles) is dark enough to contrast with the yellow-gold.

 

I generally love the existing Oakland A's forest green and gold color scheme (it's one of my favorite color schemes in sports), but kelly green paired with gold seems to fit LA far better than forest green would. Seems very SoCal to me - brighter shades, vibrant colors, very 60s/70s without looking dated. It works so well. And I love the interlocking LA, moreso than the existing "A's" monogram.

 

2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Thanks for liking the Philadelphia A's updates! Doing these defunct restorations does make me a little curious about seeing how history would have played out had some of these teams stayed in place (e.g., the A's in Philly or the Giants/Dodgers in the New York Metropolitan Area).

 

My favorite "what if" in sports, to be honest. While watching the Dodgers/Mets game last night - a matchup between a team that ditched NYC and a team that exists only because the former ditched NYC - my wife and I were talking about how different baseball would be today had the Dodgers stayed in NYC. And we came to realize that our own lives may be very different today - her grandfather grew up a huge Dodgers fan, and never really latched on to the Mets.

 

My wife wound up a Yankees fan since her family was 'homeless' in terms of fandom for decades, but she likely would've inherited Dodgers fandom from her grandfather had they stayed in NYC. Part of what brought my wife and I together was our shared love of the Yankees, and watching/going to games together - that very well may not have happened had she been a Dodgers fan. So in a strange way, the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn four decades before I was born may have contributed to me meeting my wife, in some circuitous way.

 

Anyway, totally off-topic tangent, but I guess it shows how impactful those relocations were, even in unexpected ways decades later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All of the updates you made to the Philadelphia A’s are fantastic! Wonderful touch-ups to an already great set. Besides the main road set, my favorite variant is the “PHILA” set without placket piping.

 

The Los Angeles A’s look great with the addition of red! Although it’s difficult to do, I would try to decide on either red or yellow being the “accent” color, with the other taking the place as a primary alongside kelly. If you choose red, I would probably drop the yellow alternate altogether (it just looks a little out of place to me with the green hat & red brim), or if you choose yellow, I would drop the red alternate and go with the version of the yellow alt that @coco1997 suggested, as I think that double-outlined jersey actually looks pretty good, and would be even better with a yellow brim on the cap. Regardless, I think the double-outlined version of the set is better, just because it goes better with the striping. Great work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I actually really like the yellow alt with the double outlines!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2019 at 3:02 PM, kroywen said:

 

I generally love the existing Oakland A's forest green and gold color scheme (it's one of my favorite color schemes in sports), but kelly green paired with gold seems to fit LA far better than forest green would. Seems very SoCal to me - brighter shades, vibrant colors, very 60s/70s without looking dated. It works so well. And I love the interlocking LA, moreso than the existing "A's" monogram.

 

Thanks! I too like the kelly/yellow for both Oakland and Los Angeles, as well as kelly/white for Seattle. It fits with those places pretty well (compared to Portland and Sacramento). The interlocking LA is a personal favorite design of mine, since it incorporates both the city and team initials while being distinct from the PCL Angels/Dodgers' "LA." 

 

On 5/28/2019 at 3:02 PM, kroywen said:

 

My favorite "what if" in sports, to be honest. While watching the Dodgers/Mets game last night - a matchup between a team that ditched NYC and a team that exists only because the former ditched NYC - my wife and I were talking about how different baseball would be today had the Dodgers stayed in NYC. And we came to realize that our own lives may be very different today - her grandfather grew up a huge Dodgers fan, and never really latched on to the Mets.

 

My wife wound up a Yankees fan since her family was 'homeless' in terms of fandom for decades, but she likely would've inherited Dodgers fandom from her grandfather had they stayed in NYC. Part of what brought my wife and I together was our shared love of the Yankees, and watching/going to games together - that very well may not have happened had she been a Dodgers fan. So in a strange way, the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn four decades before I was born may have contributed to me meeting my wife, in some circuitous way.

 

Anyway, totally off-topic tangent, but I guess it shows how impactful those relocations were, even in unexpected ways decades later.

 

Sweet! It's fascinating to see how relocation affected so many of us baseball fans. Heck, it's done that for me.

 

1. I'm a fan of a relocated team. Had the Giants stayed in New York or gone to Minnesota instead, I doubt I would ever have had that bond with them.

2. Had the A's moved to Louisville, my dad might have grown up a fan. I could have carried a Louisville Athletics fandom with me!

3. The Giants' potential moves to Toronto, Tampa Bay, and maybe San José might have kept me from being a fan. 

 

My baseball fandom would be very different had it been for a few relocations happening or not happening. 

 

On 5/28/2019 at 4:14 PM, MJD7 said:

All of the updates you made to the Philadelphia A’s are fantastic! Wonderful touch-ups to an already great set. Besides the main road set, my favorite variant is the “PHILA” set without placket piping.

 

The Los Angeles A’s look great with the addition of red! Although it’s difficult to do, I would try to decide on either red or yellow being the “accent” color, with the other taking the place as a primary alongside kelly. If you choose red, I would probably drop the yellow alternate altogether (it just looks a little out of place to me with the green hat & red brim), or if you choose yellow, I would drop the red alternate and go with the version of the yellow alt that @coco1997 suggested, as I think that double-outlined jersey actually looks pretty good, and would be even better with a yellow brim on the cap. Regardless, I think the double-outlined version of the set is better, just because it goes better with the striping. Great work!

 

Thanks. The red was definitely a fun experiment and I wouldn't mind revisiting it at some point. However, I still like the kelly/yellow a bit more. 

 

4 hours ago, coco1997 said:

Yeah, I actually really like the yellow alt with the double outlines!

 

Thanks!

 

2 hours ago, teeray01 said:

Will a full New Orleans Pelicans set be a part of your updates?

 

I doubt it. 

 

Anyway, let's hop on over to Kansas City!

 

KANSAS CITY ATHLETICS, REDUX - Housekeeping the Heraldry

 

The Kansas City Athletics (whose story I wrote about here - TL;DR: it had potential, but poor ownership from Arnold "Yankee Toady" Johnson and Charlie O. "Horses--t Town" Finley screwed it up - Ewing Kauffman would probably have salvaged the club in KC) needed some tweaks. I upgraded the heraldry designs to match the Philadelphia redux, while adjusting the interlocking "KC" to be less messy.

 

e64zlHq.png

 

Logo Sheet

 

Nsqwp8Y.png

 

Home and Road

 

rhEiDiv.png

 

Alternates #1

 

A3yeh7J.png

 

Alternates #2

 

QZkcQTQ.png

 

Jackets

7pY0ksB.pngvCOrjEA.png

 

I've updated the original post to reflect these changes. Stay tuned for additional tweaks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Thanks! I too like the kelly/yellow for both Oakland and Los Angeles, as well as kelly/white for Seattle. It fits with those places pretty well (compared to Portland and Sacramento).

 

Hmm... does that last statement mean we might see blue and yellow for the Portland A’s? Something to tie in to the state colors rather than just a “simple transfer” of the kelly/yellow Oakland look?

 

Seriously, the Portland elements of this thread are the ones I await so eagerly. Everything in this project has been a goldmine, but I do have my favorites that I’m waiting for. Keep up the great work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You keep posting up these beautiful dark royal Athletics concepts, and that baby blue alternate is a jersey I wish was real. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just curious, how many teams do you have planned left? Because it could honestly be endless with how old baseball is.

 

Kansas City looks great. Dark Royal and Yellow is such a good scheme. The updated elephant is also really nice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Frylock said:

 

Hmm... does that last statement mean we might see blue and yellow for the Portland A’s? Something to tie in to the state colors rather than just a “simple transfer” of the kelly/yellow Oakland look?

 

Seriously, the Portland elements of this thread are the ones I await so eagerly. Everything in this project has been a goldmine, but I do have my favorites that I’m waiting for. Keep up the great work!

 

Thanks!

 

Well, that's an option. I've been thinking about a few light blue inserts for a Portland Athletics teams, to go along with Forest Green/Athletic Gold. I'm definitely using that color scheme for when the Expos/Marlins' Portland relocation appears in a few posts. I have the feeling that you'll like it.

 

17 hours ago, KittSmith_95 said:

You keep posting up these beautiful dark royal Athletics concepts, and that baby blue alternate is a jersey I wish was real. 

 

Thanks! I've even mocked up a 1983-91 style set, with cues from the 1982-84 A's home alternate and the Royals' 1983-91 uniforms.

 

n4HABHc.png

 

It's a bit "Brewers south," but I still like it.

 

16 hours ago, BellaSpurs said:

Just curious, how many teams do you have planned left? Because it could honestly be endless with how old baseball is.

 

Kansas City looks great. Dark Royal and Yellow is such a good scheme. The updated elephant is also really nice

 

Thanks! As of right now, here's what's left:

  • Portland, Virginia Fury re-do (with the horse), Norfolk, and an alternate Washington name
  • Expos (a repost of my Project 32 designs, an attempt at an "abstract" style - as suggested by @NicDB, and the Royaux)
  • Marlins attempts to move to San Antonio, Oklahoma City, and Charlotte
  • San Jose and Portland Athletics
  • A grand finale of two designs for the Pilots
  • updates sprinkled throughout

Let's finish off the KC updates!

 

KANSAS CITY MONARCH, M-phasize a better letter

 

After updating the Milwaukee Braves to have a less awkward "M" in their cursive wordmark, I performed the same tweak to the Monarchs (my ideal Kansas City concept)!

 

r49Pz3v.png

 

Logo Sheet

 

fE073XE.png

 

Home and Road

 

6OljnCe.png

 

Alternates

 

nHieoqe.png

 

The other set of alternates and jackets are the same. Now, here's a compilation of all of the Kansas City squads!

 

PCJ2zBe.png

 

Up next, the Louisville, Seattle, Chicago, and Denver A's will get some tweaking. After that, Youppi's Lament will return!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would you ever consider doing a thread where you take ideas from this thread, and say the A’s moved to Kansas City, what would the future Oakland team (or maybe a different expansion team) would look like? Maybe it’s just me that thinks that would be a cool idea...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I think every relocation concept has been based on some sort of primary-source work that says the move was at least being explored. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Thanks! As of right now, here's what's left:

  • Portland, Virginia Fury re-do (with the horse), Norfolk, and an alternate Washington name

 

*crosses fingers for Washington Pandas*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.