MLB: The Defunct Saga - San Antonio Pt. I Added

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I really, really, really like the Grays logos and uniform - I'd buy one of those hats if they were available.


I know you're probably done with concepts after this series wraps for a while, but one where you resurrect old Negro League team identities could be really cool and informative. Just throwing that out there. 

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On 7/27/2019 at 4:46 AM, KittSmith_95 said:

I love this! The logos, the two-tone grey, the the wordmarks, the DC cap, everything. It's a great look and a great way to honour the history of Washington baseball. 




On 7/27/2019 at 8:48 AM, MJD7 said:

Norfolk looks nice! I prefer your original version to any of the updates (it seems to lean into the battleship theme the best), but they all look good.


And the Washington Grays might be the first concept that I really wish would’ve actually come into fruition! The shades you chose look beautiful together, and would really set them apart with their own unique scheme that fits the DC area. I love the main set as well as the alternates with the lighter gray cap. There’s not much else I can really say other than great work once again!


Thank you! I think I'm getting the hang of working in greys. 


On 7/27/2019 at 10:18 AM, coco1997 said:

Oh man, this is just a beautiful set. The two-toned gray would be something else to see on the field. Dare I say it, I might actually prefer this to the Nationals' identity. 


Thank you. I find that I do prefer my Grays concept to any of my Nationals designs.


On 7/27/2019 at 6:02 PM, QueenCitySwarm said:

Grays is a much better name than Nationals, and your set proves it's a shame that it never truly came to life. Fantastic work, as always!


Thanks. It really was a missed opportunity for the former Expos to brand around the city's more obscure baseball history.


39 minutes ago, teeray01 said:

Great adjustments to Norfolk.  Final set looks great!  The Washington Grays work looks great to!  Great Job!




4 minutes ago, nielsoncp said:

I really, really, really like the Grays logos and uniform - I'd buy one of those hats if they were available.


I know you're probably done with concepts after this series wraps for a while, but one where you resurrect old Negro League team identities could be really cool and informative. Just throwing that out there. 


Thank you. I'm glad you like it!


@Carolingian Steamroller did an excellent Negro League series. 



Here are the Youppi's Lament compilations.


The Pipe Dreams: San Juan Expos, Monterrey Sultanes (Update), New Jersey Stallions, and Connecticut Colonials




The Realistic Relocations: Las Vegas Lizards and Portland Stags (Original and Red/Black)




Virginia Variety: Virginia Fury (Expansion/Former Astros), Virginia Fury (Former Expos), and Norfolk Destroyers (Update)




The Road to DC: Washington Nationals (Project 32) (Update), Washington Grays, Washington Nationals (Padres), Washington Nationals (Pirates), and Washington Nationals (Orioles)




The Four DC Teams: Washington Nationals AL (Update), Washington Senators MK I, Washington Senators MK II, and Washington Nationals NL




The examination of the Expos will start soon.

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I was never enthusiastic about Grays for the Washington team. The name belongs as much/more to Pittsburgh as Washington, and it's hard to get people excited about the most neutral color. I understood the impulse to do right by the black community, but Nationals always felt like the best choice to me.


I do like the wordmarks, especially "Grays" with the narrow/tall lettering, but desaturating the DC flag in service of the team name feels like it's breaking a rule. 

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On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:17 PM, SFGiants58 said:



Welcome to MLB: The Defunct Series! After spending last year producing Project 32’s myriad of redesigns and tweaks, I figured that I should apply the same philosophy to the defunct teams of the majors. Much like its predecessor, each team will have two to three parts. The first part will be the main concept, the one that I’m happiest with presenting/matches the historical trajectory of the team’s aesthetics. The other will be an alternate take, in which I can explore different identities and shirk brand equity to have a little fun.

I’ve also got plans to include several attempted relocations, with a focus on deals that fell through at the last minute/pose the most visual interest. These will not have alternate takes since they are essentially alternate takes in their own right.

The releases will go by chronology, starting with the Boston Braves. The only one out of order is the last one since the short lifespan of the said team leaves their visual history up for more speculation.




The Defunct Set 

Boston Braves (Boston Beacons)

St. Louis Browns (Updated) (Oriole-ized) (Updated) (Update II) (Baltimore Orioles tweaking)

Philadelphia Athletics (The Charlie O Touch) (Mini-Update) (Full Update)

New York Giants (Updated) (New York Gothams) (Update and Mets Variants)

Brooklyn Dodgers (Updated "Brooklyn" script) (Brooklyn Canaries w/ Los Angeles Canaries modification)

Washington Senators/Washington Nationals (Nationals Update - new primary) (Twins-style Senators/Nationals)

Milwaukee Braves (Update Explanation - Second Update Explanation) (Milwaukee Brewers I and Milwaukee Brewers II)

Kansas City Athletics (Update Explanation) (Kansas City Blues - Update) (Kansas City Monarchs)

Washington Senators II (1990s redesign)


Attempted Relocations and Failed Expansion - Organized by City



Atlanta Athletics


The Carolinas

Carolina Twins



Connecticut Colonials



Dallas Athletics (Update)



Denver Athletics

Denver Pirates



Indianapolis Arrows


Las Vegas

Las Vegas Lizards (former Montréal Expos/Florida Marlins/potential relocation-expansion team)


Los Angeles

Los Angeles Angels - former Washington Sens/Nats or expansion team (Updated)

Los Angeles Athletics (Update) (Kelly Green/Scarlet Red/Yellow-Gold Update)



Louisville Athletics (Elephant Jersey)





Houston/Milwaukee Cardinals

Milwaukee Brewers - former St. Louis Browns (Updated) (Project 32 Style)

Milwaukee Athletics (Milwaukee update explanation)

Milwaukee White Sox (Update Comparison & New Home Uniform Explanation)

Milwaukee Brewers Prototypes



Minneapolis GiantsTwin Cities Giants, and Minnesota Giants 


Monterrey, México

Monterrey Sultanes


New Jersey

New Jersey Stallions


New Orleans

New Orleans Athletics

New Orleans Pirates



Phoenix Athletics



Portland Stags (former Montréal Expos/Florida Marlins/potential relocation-expansion team) (Update) (Red/Black/Sky Blue)


Sacramento - Introduction

Sacramento Giants

Sacramento Athletics


San Diego

San Diego Athletics

San Diego Reds (Updates)


San Francisco

San Francisco Seals - former Washington Sens/Nats or expansion team/s


San José

San José Giants


San Juan, Puerto Rico

San Juan Expos



Seattle Athletics (green/yellow and green/white)

Chicago Athletics and Seattle White Sox

Seattle Rainiers (former Cleveland Indians)


Tampa Bay - The Sweepstakes! - Introduction, Outline, and Dramatis Personæ

Tampa Bay Pirates

Tampa Bay Tarpons (ex-Minnesota Twins & Washington Sens/Nats)(Tampa Bay Twins/Tarpons variants)

Tampa Bay Athletics

Florida White Sox

Tampa Bay Cannons (ex-Texas Rangers/Washington Senators)

Florida Panthers (Forest Green/Creamsicle Recolor)

Florida/Tampa Bay Whitecaps (Seren Script with a triple blue palette)

Tampa Bay Mariners

Tampa Bay Giants - The Recreations

Tampa Bay Sting Rays and wrap-up




Toronto Giants


Washington, D.C. (and Virginia)

Washington Nationals (Ex-San Diego Padres)

Washington Nationals (Ex-Pittsburgh Pirates)

Washington Nationals (Ex-Baltimore Orioles)

Virginia Fury (expansion or former Houston Astros)

Virginia Fury (former Montréal Expos)

Norfolk Destoryers (former Montréal Expos)

Washington Grays (former Montréal Expos with a different name)


Houston Colt.45's is missing from the Defunct Ones.  Will there be a page for them?


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Today's game:


Grays @ Reds. The Grays will be wearing their grays, and the Reds their reds.

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On 7/29/2019 at 12:48 PM, coco1997 said:

Very cool seeing all these different possibilities together in one spot!




On 7/29/2019 at 1:31 PM, the admiral said:

I was never enthusiastic about Grays for the Washington team. The name belongs as much/more to Pittsburgh as Washington, and it's hard to get people excited about the most neutral color. I understood the impulse to do right by the black community, but Nationals always felt like the best choice to me.


I do like the wordmarks, especially "Grays" with the narrow/tall lettering, but desaturating the DC flag in service of the team name feels like it's breaking a rule. 


Thank you. I totally see where you're coming from, but I have objections:


1. Pittsburgh took down their statue of Josh Gibson, will never rebrand as the Grays, and can throw back to the Crawfords. Therefore, they can share.


2. Well, George Washington owned slaves. Desecrating his symbol a little bit seems fine to me. Besides, I've done it several times before with little trouble.


On 8/1/2019 at 9:01 PM, coco1997 said:
On 8/2/2019 at 12:46 PM, Joke Insurance said:

Realistically, no. At least I hope not.


Would prefer cities like Austin, Portland, or San Antonio.


What about Tuscon?


I already did the Las Vegas Lizards, which can apply here.


On 8/5/2019 at 8:33 AM, teeray01 said:

Houston Colt.45's is missing from the Defunct Ones.  Will there be a page for them?



That's because it was a rebrand. The team moved a very short distance to become the Astros, therefore, they don't count. Also, please don't quote the initial post this deep into the thread, as it makes it harder to read for the other posters.


23 hours ago, Jake3.roo said:

Today's game:


Grays @ Reds. The Grays will be wearing their grays, and the Reds their reds.




Note: I will be separating the explanation for the Expos' departure and my first of several concepts for them. It's a long one.

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MONTRÉAL EXPOS, PT. I - The Youppi Blues (An explanation)


The relocation of the Expos to DC remains a curious scenario. UrinatingTree compiled a decent guide to the team’s history (with rare footage) that touches upon their departure, even if it is somewhat sophomoric. However, the video doesn’t nail some key factors in the relocation (which I will illustrate with appropriate .gif images):




1. The passage of the Quebec language law known as La charte de la langue française, or Bill 101, in 1977 was the first blow. Many have argued that it was a necessary measure to protect to province’s cultural heritage, appease the FLQ, and dismantle the “anglophone ruling class” and the “Catholic shadow government.” However, the establishment of the “language police”/Office québécois de la langue française and their harassment of both the Anglophone and Jewish communities, mandates of primarily French public education, and the threat of independence referendums incited tension. The business community largely left the province, with the Bank of Montréal, Royal Bank of Canada, and Sun Life moving to Toronto. Both the Anglophone and Jewish demographics saw significant emigration to Ontario, with the remnants of said groups facing persecution from the “language police's” abuses.1


While this may seem like it would not impact the Expos, the unfortunate reality was that most of the baseball community and fans in Montréal were Anglophones. While there were plenty of Francophone fans of the team (i.e., “Nos Amours” and English/French broadcasts/announcements), they simply didn’t have the numbers of the Anglophone supporters. Another blow was the loss of business community to support baseball with suite purchases and sponsorships, a necessity for running a team.2


Several of the later reasons described here have some relevance to the post-Bill 101 economic problems faced by Quebec and Montréal. These include:

  • The Blue Jays took the Southern Ontario market away from the Expos. This represented a notable loss in revenue for the Expos, as they would have to depend on the economic fortunes of a less-powerful Quebec. 
  • These language laws made free agency unattractive for players on the market, along with higher Canadian taxes.
  • Because of the added economic stress from the Canadian Dollar’s decline (at times worth less than 70% of the US dollar) and the prospect of an independence referendum in October 1995, the partners in Claude Brochu’s ownership group were unwilling to spend more on the team. This, along with lost revenue from the 1994 strike and the group’s cheapness, incited the ‘90s fire sale. 
  • The lack of a strong business community made it harder to find a buyer from Quebec or necessary corporate support. Even the Canadiens couldn’t find a local buyer, nor did they use public funds to build the Bell Centre. Trying to gain both a strong local ownership group and getting public funds from a concerned government would prove difficult obstacles for the Expos.3




2. The construction of Olympic Stadium/Le Stade Olympique was a disaster that proved concerning for publicly-funded venues in Montréal. Building the stadium involved delays, costs going from $124 million to $600 million, and political cronyism. Even upon completion, the stadium’s roof would frequently rip and barely retracted, a 55-ton beam fell off of the building in 1991, the turf surface hurt players, and it was in a location with few local entertainment options and far from Anglophone neighborhoods. The team felt the need for a replacement in the ‘90s, one which resulted in the Labatt Park impasses. With all parties unwilling to foot the bill, especially after Le Stade Olympique’s controversy, the team would remain at The (unsuitable) Big O.4




3. The Toronto Blue Jays claimed exclusivity in Southern Ontario, taking away a lucrative market away from the Expos. Even though both commissioners Bowie Kuhn and Peter Ueberroth offered compromises (i.e., 15 games a year broadcast in Southern Ontario, would have to pay for broadcasting rights afterwards), owner Charles Bronfman rejected these proposals. Losing this market eliminated a significant revenue stream, one which the Blue Jays built upon and secured by contending throughout the 1980s (during a competitive downturn for the Expos) and early 1990s. Playing in the cultural capital of Anglophone Canada further cemented the club as a multi-provincial entity. The Expos would have to be content with being a provincial squad, further isolated due to Quebec separatism.5  




4. Post-Bronfman ownership ran the team as cheaply as possible, inciting fan apathy and enabling MLB to pull the Expos’ plug. While Bronfman did engage in salary cutting measures due to declines in revenue streams and the season ticket base (e.g., trading Gary Carter), the Brochu group made them standard from 1991-98. His partners refused to chip in much beyond their initial investments while imposing cost-cutting measures. This forced the team to sell off most of their franchise players to satisfy the books (which were probably cooked to a decent degree). Even when a team put together a contender in 1994, there were concerns about whether or not a World Series titles would get them to break even. The fire sale of the 1994 team was a result of this cheapness, along with the loss of playoff game money. Continually being cheap on player salaries and failing to provide any significant capital towards the Labatt Park plan (only $40 million in PSL’s) crippled fan engagement.6


The Loria ownership of 1998-2002 took things further, refusing broadcasting contracts (paying a high $1,000 per game for radio and only receiving $5,000 for TSN games compared to the Blue Jays’ $200,000) and leaving the team without English radio, tanking stadium talks further (although the negotiations were fairly untenable when he arrived) and selling off the rights to potential stadium land, not marketing the club, and taking every piece of valuable organization property upon selling the team to MLB. Loria also wrestled control away from Brochu’s consortium partners, although any of the other owners could have answered his cash calls to stop him.7


Under MLB ownership and following the failure of the 2001 contraction, the club never called up minor leaguers in September 2003 and began playing games in San Juan, Puerto Rico. With owners who were unwilling to put in money for baseball, the baseball fandom of Montréal turned their interests away from the club.8


Stephen Bronfman speculated that Loria’s ownership was more or less a conspiracy to kill off the failing market in Montréal (financial losses, smaller crowds, and bad publicity with the ownership/community), which fits with the actions of both the Brochu and Loria partnerships.9




TL;DR: It was not one factor that killed the Expos, but rather a chain of events set off by Bill 101, the shoddiness of Olympic Stadium, the Blue Jays claiming Southern Ontario, and cheap ownership by Brochu/his partners and Loria that did the damage.  


Also, the 1994 strike ending the Expos’ greatest season was not the deciding factor that led to their doom. It didn’t help matters (given the post-strike weariness towards baseball and lost revenue), but the Brochu group’s money problems and attitude towards payroll would have still induced a star liquidation. They might have had more clout for a publicly-funded stadium, but a 1990s Quebec was in no position to publicly finance it. Heck, had the referendum resulted in a “oui,” the Expos probably would have fled far sooner (something Bronfman pondered in his sale).10

This synopsis of the Expos’ downfall is my synthesis of Jonah Keri’s Up, Up, & Away! for the baseball-specific information and Daniel S. Greene’s thesis paper “Analyzing the Parallelism between the Rise and Fall of Baseball in Quebec and the Quebec Secession Movement” providing the socioeconomic/political data. I recommend that you check both of them out (although given recent domestic violence allegations made against Keri, just go to the library for his volume).


CBC, “CBC Digital Archives - Fighting Words: Bill 101 - Bill 101: Politics of Smoked Meat,” accessed August 6, 2019, http://web.archive.org/web/20131203041117/http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/politics/language-culture/fighting-words-bill-101/politics-of-smoked-meat.html; Daniel S. Greene, “Analyzing the Parallelism between the Rise and Fall of Baseball in Quebec and the Quebec Secession Movement” (Honors Thesis, Union College, 2011), 47–50, https://digitalworks.union.edu/theses/988; Bennet Kelley, “Quebec’s Fateful Day: Embracing Decline in the Name of Culture,” Bennet Kelley’s Clippings & More (blog), July 27, 2014, https://bennetkelley.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/quebecs-fateful-day/; Jonah Keri, Up, Up, and Away: The Kid, the Hawk, Rock, Vladi, Pedro, Le Grand Orange, Youppi!, The Crazy Business of Baseball, and the Ill-Fated but Unforgettable Montreal Expos, Reprint edition (Toronto, ON: Vintage Canada, 2015), 98–101; League for Human Rights B’nai Brith Canada, “1996 Annual Audit of Antisemitic Incidents - Antisemitism in Canada: Current Climate and Trends,” January 7, 2004, http://web.archive.org/web/20040107134104/https://www.bnaibrith.ca/publications/audit1996/audit1996-06.html; Susan Taylor Martin, “In Quebec, Some Take Law as Sign of Discrimination,” St. Petersburg Times, August 9, 1999, sec. National, America’s News.

2 Jonathan Kay, “Separatism and the Expos,” NINE: A Journal of Baseball History and Culture 12, no. 1 (July 24, 2003): 153–55, https://doi.org/10.1353/nin.2003.0044; Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 56–59 and 383; Bill Mann, “Strike Trois! -- Down Go the Expos,” MarketWatch, November 9, 2001, https://www.marketwatch.com/story/quel-dommage-strike-trois-for-the-montreal-expos; Stuart Shea, Calling the Game: Baseball Broadcasting from 1920 to the Present, ed. Gary Gillette (Phoenix, AZ: Society for American Baseball Research, 2015), 340–41; Paul Taunton, “The Nord Remembers,” Hazlitt, October 3, 2014, https://hazlitt.net/feature/nord-remembers.

3 Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 212–16, 248–51, 261, 314–15, 337–40.

4 Kay, “Separatism and the Expos,” 154; Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 103–9, 230–45, 265, and 335–41.

5 Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 212–16, 275, and 365–66.

6 Keri, 207–9, 221–22, 249–52, 311–16, and 337.

7 Greene, “Analyzing the Parallelism between the Rise and Fall of Baseball in Quebec and the Quebec Secession Movement,” 86–88; Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 345–67.

8 Greene, “Analyzing the Parallelism between the Rise and Fall of Baseball in Quebec and the Quebec Secession Movement,” 88–89; Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 364–77; Matthew Surridge, “Remembering MLB in Montreal,” Splice Today, February 20, 2015, https://www.splicetoday.com/sports/remembering-mlb-in-montreal.

9 Keri, Up, Up, and Away, 364.

10 Linda Kay, “Expos Unable to Escape Quebec’s Political Tumult,” Chicago Tribune, July 29, 1990, https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1990-07-29-9003040407-story.html.

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MONTRÉAL EXPOS, PT. I - The Youppi Blues (The concept)


This is an update of my Project 32 revamp (original, first update, and second update) of the team, complete with its shield logo, the new “M” insignia, and its basic uniform template. There have been some basic changes, namely that I’ve swapped the generic fleur-de-lis with the one from Montréal’s flag. The goal of my redesign was to make the team look more “French Canadian” and market it to the Francophones, so using an appropriate fleur was a good update.


The primary, as an emulation of Montréal’s flag and crest, features a fleur-de-lis, the post-2018 white pine, the Montréal city logo, a baseball outline, and a simplified “M” insignia. Here's an old/new comparison of the insignia and the crest. Batesina Athletica remains the central font, for that “old Montréal” aesthetic.


EDIT: In response to @Carolingian Steamroller's C+C, I've replaced the dual flag logo, while also recoloring the batting helmet flaps. The first image is here, along with a comparison. I also fixed the incorrect French, per @TheLAKnight's suggestion. Linked here is the original.




The uniforms are a modernized take on the '92-'04 set. The blue/white/red remains on the sleeves, pants, and socks. I evened the width of each stripe, to better homage to the Tricolour. The fleur-de-lis is at the center of the stripe, now with the Quebec fleur. I redid the scripts to give them a bit more “personality” and clean them up (comparison with the 1992 and 2017 scripts here). I kept the fleur-de-lis as the accent mark, which I liked. The primary logo is on the sleeves, and the number font is now Batesina Athletica (thinned slightly). I didn’t enjoy the block font, as it looked too generic. The road uniforms now have a light blue-tint, as a tiny homage to the team's powder blue road uniforms.




The alternates now include a powder blue top, paired with the pinwheel cap. It's a way to tribute the full-powder blue set without going crazy (akin to the Royals). I kept the royal and red elements separate on the jersey, as royal with red outlines looks muddy on powder backgrounds. The royal jersey remains unchanged (aside from updated logos) from the first one.


EDIT: The flaps on the pinwheel helmet are now blue. My original image is here.




The second set of alts includes the pinwheel cap paired with the home set. This event jersey (based on their original uniforms) features the Canadian Flag and the Drapeau du Québec (Quebec Flag) on the sleeves, along with the crest and the insignia on the placket. This arrangement fits with the Canadian flag regulations. It would show up on both Canada Day and Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (the patron saint of French Canadians). That way, no French Canadians alienation!


EDIT: In response to @Carolingian Steamroller's C+C, I've replaced the dual flag logo, while also recoloring the batting helmet flaps. The first image is here.




The jacket remains the same from the previous design. 




This hyper-French Canadian set was one of my favorite Project 32 concept and I think that my update really nails the set. C+C is appreciated, as always! 

Up next, a few abstract designs.


Edited by SFGiants58
I've got a new dual flag logo and helmet flap recoloring, then I fixed a French grammar error.

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Stunning work! I love the new powder blue alt, and the tweaked scripts look excellent. They remind me of the "cruder" scripts of the 1960s used by teams like Baltimore and Atlanta. 

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On 8/7/2019 at 8:38 AM, coco1997 said:

Stunning work! I love the new powder blue alt, and the tweaked scripts look excellent. They remind me of the "cruder" scripts of the 1960s used by teams like Baltimore and Atlanta. 


Thanks! That was the goal, to get it looking less "sterile" than the '92-'04 set.


On 8/7/2019 at 3:21 PM, Carolingian Steamroller said:

Terrific job on the Expos!

Minor quibble: the dual flags sort of look like a "T" which combined with the split white/blue details make me think Toronto. 


Thank you. I've tweaked the above set to include a new dual flag logo. Here's my inspiration.




Now, for a bit of abstraction!




This design (and the next one) came out of one of the many discussions on the board about the classic Expos insignia. Guys like @Gothamite@B-Rich, and myself have explained the flaws of the eMb/Melb/elbM/M-blob repeatedly. Here are the basic highlights of our argument (in the spoiler tags):




(From 2014, by  @Gothamite)



The Expos logo, on the other hand, is a bloody mess. It's supposed to look like an "M", but doesn't. The muddy silhouette, moreover, is clearly comprised of a distinctive and unmistakeable "e", "l", and "b". Which was not the intended effect.


(From 2014:)

On 4/5/2014 at 6:57 PM, Gothamite said:

It's a terrible logo. A formless shape that supposed to maybe look like an "M" but doesn't, and contains some other shapes that are definitely supposed to be letters and some other shapes that people think are letters but aren't.


(From the Expos on "Newhart" thread), by @B-Rich



Back on topic: The Expos brand, in my opinion is one of the worst ever in sports.


Briefly, though, a few thoughts before I go into that.

1. Naming a team for a world's fair that occurred 2 years before the team first played is a goofy idea. I know the World's Fair was a great success and was a point of pride for those of Montreal, but seriously? Expos? Not to be outdone, Montreal did the same type of thing again a few years later, naming their first NASL team the Olympiques, one year after the city was awarded that event.

2. The concept of the logo, as one can see from the discussion on the board, the Newhart clip, and other references, is shoddy. Is it an "M" or not? There is clearly a lower case "e" in red, but is the right half of the logo a lowercase "b"? And what about the white section? Is it an "I", a "J", or something else, or negative space? Plus the whole original team name "expos" being done in lower case looks dumb. I am aware that use of all lowercase may have been a "thing" in the late 60s, but it still looked stupid.


(Technical material, relevant to a later concept)


(From this year's MLB thread, follow the arrows to the originals):


On 5/29/2019 at 7:53 AM, Gothamite said:

(In reference to the BiG)

Funny you should mention this, because I’ve always thought the logos were of a kind.  Separated by less than a decade, both use sweeping lines and bulbous curves.  They both combine multiple letterforms into a larger image.  They very much start from the same place. 


The difference is that the Brewers logo succeeds and the Expos logo fails.  Spectacularly.


The evidence for that is patently obvious; when you show somebody the hidden letters in the glove, they invariably say “OMG HOW DID I NOT SEE THAT BEFORE THATISBRILLIANT”.   When you show somebody the hidden “e” and “b” in the Expos’ “M”, the response is usually some variation on “Huh.  But what does the white “l” stand for?  Or “Is that really supposed to be an M?”


Even knowing what’s supposed to be in the “elb” logo doesn’t help, because they’re still not clear.  The “e” reads clearly, the rest not so much. 


(And this isn’t a biased fan talking; I don’t particularly love the glove logo, and it isn’t even in my top five Brewers logos of all time.  But I can’t deny that it’s really well-designed, and it just works.)


The Expos logo is iconic, but that doesn’t make it good.  It’s iconic in the way a Ford Pinto is.  Or Enron.  Longevity and nostalgia spread a thin layer of cheap gloss on a very, very bad design. 


On 5/24/2019 at 10:19 AM, SFGiants58 said:

The Expos’ wordmarks, colors, and jersey designs were fine. Sure, 1992-04 designs could use a tweaking to get them less “bulbous” looking, but they were still good.


The “eMb”/“Meb”/“elbM” is one of the single worst logos in baseball history. I think it’s an ugly blob that fails to accomplish its goal. It tries to cram too much into one design, creates ambiguity over the various shapes (hence why people think there’s a hidden “l,” when there is none), and the letters are poorly-constructed.


Say what you want about the “curly W”/“interlocking DC” or any other part of the Nationals’ identity, it’s at least clear what all the letters are meant to be. The team has some inconsistencies, sure, but it has no elements as awful as the “Meb” blob. Heck, the “M-blob” is also a terrible example of the “French Canadian” style. Compare it to what the Alouettes and Nordiques did:




I don’t even like the Nordiques’ crest that much, but it’s better than the Expos’ design. Affiliates also nailed the aesthetic of the club without having a blob logo.





I don’t mind the name coming back, especially for how Expo ‘67 was such a shining moment in the city’s history (without the baggage of what happen in 1976 and how that Olympics kind of doomed the Expos). I just don’t want that crummy logo back.

On 5/29/2019 at 10:32 AM, Digby said:

If the “elb” formation is nonsensical, don’t make your damn logo look like it says “elb”.

On 5/28/2019 at 6:29 PM, Gothamite said:


On 5/28/2019 at 5:09 PM, Ferdinand Cesarano said:


Contemporary reports described the logo as being an M, and containing an E (with no mention of a B).





The team later referred to a B in its official description of the logo. But the lack of any contemporary allusion to a B leads to the conclusion that the logo was not intended to include that letter.


Todd Radom wrote the whole matter up on his blog several years ago.


Todd’s piece is fantastic.  And he nails the problem with their eMb logo:



The club seemingly gave a definitive explanation starting in the late 80s and early 90s—"The Expos logo is composed of three letters, the largest of which is the overall stylized "M" for Montréal. Represented in the lower left of the logo is a lower case "e" for expos and on the right hand side of the logo, in blue, is the letter "b" for baseball." While this may stand as the final word, it seems unusual that this explanation came some two decades after the logo's debut.


The fact that they were still developing a changing explanation after decades of use shows us how lousy it really is. 





I'm of the opinion that the "elMb" is a terribly-designed logo. It failed to represent the "M" because of the M's construction (lacking specific lines needed to signify a proper M), there was the accidental creation of the "b" (which the team officially retconned into the design, no good design needs retroactive continuity to explain it) and the "l" shape (which is nothing, apparently), and the design tries to cram too much into one space. Simplifying the design would have been the best course of action in 1968, but that didn't happen. It's one of my least-favorite looks for any post-WWII MLB team and why I hope a revived Montréal baseball team either picks a new name or Winnipeg Jets-ifies their identity to be less ugly.


However, plenty of people throughout the years have defended the "elMb" as "iconic" or an "excellent piece of mid-century French Canadian abstract art" (e.g., @DastardlyRidleylash, @NicDB, @the admiral - analysis here, and @Ferdinand Cesarano). I get that the abstract design really says "Expos" in a way that no other logo could. @NicDB did offer an interesting point to me, one that I took into consideration:


On 5/29/2019 at 6:30 PM, NicDB said:

Normally I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you say in regards to baseball uniforms.  But I think you're (a.) applying retroactive sensibilities to a design that's from an era where those sensibilities didn't necessarily exist, and (b.) disregarding the fact that it stood the test of time in-spite of those flaws.  I mean, could you really imagine a team moving to Montreal and calling itself the Expos without bringing that logo back?

If so, consider this a request for your concept series.  I'm genuinely curious to know how you would go about it.


Well, this upcoming design is one of the few ways I would go about it! I set about following up on my most common suggestion for Les Expos (and a Nationals fauxback, better than the straight throwback), namely adapting the design of their 1970s minor league affiliate, the Winnipeg Whips. 




Designers like @MJD7 and @coco1997 have demonstrated the utility of the Whips logo as both a Nationals fauxback design and for Expos concepts (MJD7 and coco1997) . However, the obvious problem with the design is that it evokes the Pepsi logo a bit too much. Therefore, I opted to rectify this issue with my design.




(Note: I modeled it with the separate ball Whips logo, as the Ebbets Field Flannels image above shows the circle as a separate cloth piece from the "W" - most other traces don't note the separation). 


This design keeps the "e" from the "elMb," but widens the hole and adjusts the curve to fit within the strokes of the swirly M. I connected the "M" to the blue half of the roundel, while the red half acts as an underline. It represents the goals of the original logo without any ambiguity and while fitting in with period design standards. Todd Radom's guide demonstrates this fairly well (my insertion):




The insignia is also the only place where royal and red touch in the whole concept, as the rest uses white to keep the elements separate.


The logo sheet includes the new "eM" insignia with a lowercase Batesina Athletica "expos" underneath, to mimic the original design. It was a bit of quirkiness I felt was worth keeping. While I thought about switching over to the Expos' old Clarendon lettering/numbers, it just looked too "old fashioned" for the club. I've included a roundel logo that takes on all of the symbolism of the shield logo, albeit with an italicized "69" in alternating colors to represent the founding date. The "Les Expos D'Montréal" was an idea I got from the Sens' French wordmark.


EDIT: I have corrected the bad French, which now reads: Les Expos De Montreal. Thanks, @TheLAKnight for pointing it out. I also added the correct cap insignias. Here are the originals: Logo Sheet, Home & Road, Alts 1 and Alts 2, and Jacket. I have also replaced the logo sheet to reflect the white outlines on the road uniform, per @MJD7's suggestion. The first update is in the link.




The home and road set uses the same template from my primary concept, but with a few notable tweaks. An idea that @NicDB and I came up with was to balance "bleu" and "rogue" throughout the set, a la the Montréal Canadiens. That's why I added red bills to the caps, socks with white middle stripes and red lower parts, and used red wordmarks/front numbers/NOB's. The Batesina Athletica numbers remain.


EDIT: I've added white outlines to the road uniform, per @MJD7's suggestion. The original is here.




The alternates include both "rouge" and "blue" jerseys. The "rouge" variant uses the same template as the home and road design, while the "bleu" carries over the "Montréal" script from my previous concept. I figured it was too good not to use somewhere in the set. Said "bleu" jersey also uses a red-crowned cap and red undershirts, to protect the careful color balance.


EDIT: I fixed the un-outlined numbers on the logo sheet. The first edition is here.




The second set of alternate are an opportunity to showcase the updated pinwheel cap. The first is merely a home alternate, while the second is the Canada Day/St. Jean-Baptiste Day jersey. It features the flag logo from the previous concept. It also has the "rogue"/"bleu" jerseys' white outlines, for added legibility.




The jacket is similar to my other Expos jackets, but it now has red lower sleeves and a white middle stripes. I placed the primary on the chest.




While I do prefer my French Canadian-styled original, going for an abstract route also produced a fantastic, period-appropriate design. It also dodges the pitfalls of the Whips' insignia, ditching the Pepsi look. The split colors also enable the team to avoid any unwarranted comparison to the Mets or Cubs, which I like. C+C is appreciated, as always!


Up next, an abstract design that handles the same Whips influence with a few differences.


Edited by SFGiants58
French and logo sheet errors corrected, with new road set.

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Why do you have "d'Montréal" instead of "de Montréal"?

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I wonder what the primary logo would look like without the e; it feels shoehorned in now that it's not connected to the M (maybe that's another solution?). Apart from that and the questionable French, you've put a great set together!

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Would be curious if you colored it like the whips logo, with white letters. But with just the logo and font change as it’s gone from (the original uniforms) being some of the worst in history imo, to these being some of the best tbh, great job!


you also have the wrong cap monogram on the graphic

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