Bucfan56

2018 MLB Off Season Thread

Recommended Posts

Baines did have 2,800 hits.  I'm grasping at straws here trying to find any way to justify it, but that's a lot more than Jim Edmonds.  As stated earlier, none of them actually mattered, but there were an awful lot of them.  Looks like he actually batted well in a few playoff series too.  I never realized he even played in the post season.

 

Just through a quick google search, there's only a handful of guys with 2,700+ hits that aren't in the hall for reasons besides not yet being eligible or steroids or Pete Rose.  It's basically Vada Pinson, Johnny Damon, Al Oliver, Doc Cramer, Dave Parker, Bill Buckner, and Rusty Staub.  I don't think anyone considers it unjust that any of them aren't in, and Baines probably deserves a seat among them on the outside looking in.

 

Baines reminds me of the era before interleague play, and before I had cable, where other than All Star games (which were really big deals to me as a kid) these guys existed solely on baseball cards.  They were legends - they weren't "real".  Harold Baines was a guy that I always assumed was a great player, just from the all-star trophies on his cards, and the "heart of the team" cards that one of the companies had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My whole family are Sox fans and I don't know anybody who thinks Harold Baines is a HoFer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My recollection of Harold Baines is only that he played for a long ass time and I never actually saw him play live. I only saw him in sportscenter highlights. His career WAR is 38.7, the average rightfielder in the hall of fame is 71.4 so it's not like he's even a sneaky good sabremetrics guy like Tim Raines, whose career WAR is actually above the left-fielder hall of famer's average. 

 

There's two big problems with inducting him: 1. Now you have to induct a lot of humdrum players. The bar just got lowered. 2. Now I guess we're just going to put in guys because they were buddies with a guy on this committee?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, McCarthy said:

There's two big problems with inducting him: 1. Now you have to induct a lot of humdrum players. The bar just got lowered. 2. Now I guess we're just going to put in guys because they were buddies with a guy on this committee?

1

 

That's what happened when Frankie Frisch was left to run the Veterans' Committee.


If you look at the late '20s and early '30s, one out of every ten players in the Majors is a future Hall of Famer. By comparison, the percentage of HOFers for the '80s is about one in every 30 players.

 

I'm not worried about that happening because you would need to have double digit induction classes for the next decade plus just to close the gap. There is no appetite amongst anyone associated with the Hall to do that, even though it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have a double-digit class or two thrown in, because the standards have gotten so ridiculous the last few years.

 

The problem is the Hall of Fame doesn't have any interest in inducting the best players anymore. It's now a popularity contest amongst old-timers who look down on anyone who started their career after 1990 and anyone who views the game through a Sabermetric scope because that's what's running them out of the sport.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding of modern baseball is you tank for a while, draft a bunch of Latin American guys, pay them peanuts and then let them walk in free agency where the entire league colludes against them and they get nothing.

 

I say that only to wonder aloud how stats are going to hold up in the future. Will guys still have 20-year careers? What will longevity mean in, say, 2025?

 

Baseball seems like it's changing most radically among American sports; at least in a way that seems least recognizable to the sport I grew up with in the late 80s/90s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people are framing this as a conflict between old school baseball mentality and new age analytics. Harold Baines retired after the 2001 season, at a point when sabermetrics was not at all fashionable. WAR probably had not been invented at that point; there were probably stats like VORP but nobody knew what that was.

 

My point is that circa 2001-2002, most baseball fans still had a mostly old-school baseball mentality. I don't even recall OPS having the level of emphasis that it has today. Keeping that in mind, how many people at the time actually looked at his career stats and achievements and considered him to remotely be in the HOF conversation? Even during an era where batting average and counting stats like hits or RBIs still reigned, nobody ever thought he had a legitimate shot at Cooperstown.

 

It's easy to rack up 2800 hits when you are the DH for the vast majority of your games, sparing yourself some wear and tear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on. It’s not easy to rack up 2,800 hits no matter what your circumstances are. If it was, more than 60 players would have. Not saying he’s great, but let’s not crap on 2,800 hits. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Come on. It’s not easy to rack up 2,800 hits no matter what your circumstances are. If it was, more than 60 players would have. Not saying he’s great, but let’s not crap on 2,800 hits. 

I'm not sure he should be a HOFer but 2800 hits is just short of 200 hits in a 15 year career. That is nothing to just dismiss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/10/2018 at 10:19 AM, McCarthy said:

The Reds non-tendered Billy Hamilton, which is a good sign that they're serious about trying to not suck anymore. His presence in centerfield every day was sort of the canary in the coalmine that they weren't really interested in competing. Your centerfielder can't hit, he's batting behind the pitcher, his one offensive skill - stealing bases - only works if you can get on base, which he can't because he's a twig. Oh, but what about his glove? So he has a good glove. Great. The amount of runs he saved above average through all of last season was 4. FOUR. His replacement can make that up with one good week at the plate. 

 

 

A real life Willie Mays Hayes there, that Hamilton fella.  In the immortal words of Lou Brown, he may run like Mays but he hits like :censored:.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not dismissing 2800 hits like they're nothing, but in his case it's mostly just a sign of longevity. In terms of career batting average, Baines is ranked 408th all time. Just look at a lot of the names above him who never came that closer to the Hall. Dave Parker had over 2700 hits, an MVP, two rings, 7 time all-star, three consecutive gold gloves, and played the field more. Why did he always only get around 15% of the vote? Baines played a tiny bit longer and had a tiny bit more HR and hits, but he's somehow HOF worthy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jmac11281 said:

I'm not sure he should be a HOFer but 2800 hits is just short of 200 hits in a 15 year career. That is nothing to just dismiss.

 

Nobody glossed over Harold Baines numbers. He had a solid Major League career that he should be proud of.

 

The problem is when it comes to the Hall of Fame I would argue career numbers should be almost irrelevant. How good you were at your peak and for how long were you a dominating player are about the only two things I'm concerned about. Were you someone you could realistically build a World Series team around? We have the answer to this question because the White Sox tried this in the '80s and their win total was usually somewhere in the low 70's. Solid hitter, but on a good team, he's the second or third best position player. Defensively and on the basepaths he brought nothing to the table. His longevity also comes with an asterisk, not because he was a DH, but because he was a part-time player who sat against lefties from '92 onwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like Cubs bench coach Brandon Hyde will be the Orioles’ new manager. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody’s crapping on 2800 hits, but that’s his only case and when that’s your only case you don’t have a very good case, especially when you were mostly DH. His accumulation stats are all lower than our normal HoF benchmarks plus his Sabremetrics aren’t good. 

 

I hadn’t been paying attention to the voting this year so when I saw it was Harold Baines and former Reds great Lee Smith I did a “whatthe really????” Which is kind of a sign that the voters goofed. 

 

The only hall of fame Harold Baines belongs in is the manicured beard hall of fame. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

The Rays’ publicly-funded Ybor Stadium project is dead. Reports also claim that the team will play out their lease at The Trop until 2027:

 

 

 

It’s good that the public won’t be subsidizing the stadium. However, this does kind of put the Rays into an additional mess.

 

Saw that coming. But hey, there's always Portland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Discrimihater said:

A real life Willie Mays Hayes there, that Hamilton fella.  In the immortal words of Lou Brown, he may run like Mays but he hits like :censored:.

The Royals finally found a replacement for Terrance Gore! They went to two World Series and won one with a guy who was faster than the wind and never got a hit (with them). Looks like a .240 hitter with his speed could make the Royals a real dynasty!

 

Rebuild over! Lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just watched Tony LaRussa on High Hear on MLB trying to defend the vote to put Baines into the HOF.  Never been a huge Chris Russo guy but to his credit, he asked the questions that needed to be asked particularly about the potential conflict of interest with the close connection to Baines he and several on that panel had, and wouldn't take LaRussa's attempts to both insult his intelligence and dodge the questions.  LaRussa being one of the now infamous sixteen pulled the "I know better than you, the fans or the writers what makes a Hall of Famer" schtick.  Reminds me of a defense lawyer who's trying to defend the indefensible.  Go away Tony time to retire from all aspects of baseball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I don't think any fanbase should have to endure the agony, it's pretty clear to me that the Rays need to relocate. Florida is just not a good place for baseball because of all of the transplant fans. A new ballpark might not even solve the attendance woes that the Rays are currently facing. Look at the Marlins as a prime example. There are many reasons why people don't show up to Marlins Park, firesale culture being among them, but in the end it's clear that the local culture just doesn't embrace the team.

 

I'm a little biased, of course, but it would be marvelous if the Marlins could take over the Tampa/St. Pete and Orlando television markets, which are quite lucrative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see anywhere for the Rays to go. Orlando if they're interested and that's it. The Phoenix/Tampa expansion was a mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, the admiral said:

I don't see anywhere for the Rays to go. Orlando if they're interested and that's it. The Phoenix/Tampa expansion was a mistake.

 

Well, it was the result of the rest of the majors constantly entertaining offers by Tampa Bay Area groups to buy their teams and relocate there for about a decade.

 

Throughout the late-‘70s and early-‘80s, people like Steinbrenner and Tampa Bay Area officials/sports writers (e.g., Rick Dodge and Frank Morsani) sang the market’s praises (except for the location of the The Trop, rightfully so). People wanted to turn it into an MLB market, so they lobbied for an expansion team while entertaining adventures to buy and relocate teams. 

 

Ultimately, several teams nearly moved there, with St. Petersburg going so far as to approve the Trop’s construction (against the wishes of MLB officials) over Morsani’s privately-funded some plan at the future Bucs stadium site in Tampa proper. The Twins, A’s, (maybe Pirates), White Sox, Rangers, Mariners, and Giants all were in discussion to move to Tampa and/or St. Pete, with some having deals in place. 

 

After the Giants’ sale to Vince Naimoli’s group fell through due to NL President Bill White and several other owners’ influence, Naimoli sued baseball and got his expansion team. He had said expansion team as cheaply and poorly as possible (examples which are too numerous to list here), further derailing the team.

 

Basically, MLB’s clubs, St. Pete’s civic leadership, and Naimoli made sure Tampa Bay baseball was dead on arrival. For all the attempts to talk the market up from about 1979-1993, it sure has failed to live up to its potential (even the aforementioned problems could have been ameliorated by a strong fan base). I mean no offense at all to Rays fans, but things didn’t really work out there. Phoenix turned out OK.

Edited by SFGiants58
Bill White, not Frank White and derailing, not detailing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.