Alternative Leagues: This Time We'll Get It Right!

[neo_prankster]

1 hour ago, Discrimihater said:

I think I'd offer something different in the billion to one odds I was ever in the position of creating a football league: six-man or eight-man ball.  And such a league would use the Schiano proposal.  Hell, I'd be inclined to test something out: replacing the game clock with some number of drives.

 

What was Schiano's proposal?

[dfwabel]

4 minutes ago, neo_prankster said:

 

What was Schiano's proposal?

He proposed that after a touchdown or field goal, the scoring team retains possession, getting the football on its own 30, facing fourth-and-15. Teams could go for it or punt it away. In effect, punts would replace kickoffs.  

 

[MilSox]

I think Bounce TV shows a package of HBCU football games, or at least used to.  I can also think of a few local wrestling promotions being distributed nationally through syndication on other OTA subchannel networks like it.  But the nature of these networks is such that the league would most likely have to produce its own television.  Which would probably necessitate that these leagues be regional, rather than national.  Although I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, because any new league needs to be focused on replacing the NCAA, and not the NFL. 

The NBA G-League started off as regional league that was distributed mostly on ESPN's non-flagship networks, so it's not as if there's not some sort of precedent here.  But cable is a sinking ship and streaming services aren't quite as mainstream as I think a lot of people believe.  Even then, how widely distributed are any of these services really, other than Netflix and Amazon Prime?

I really think the type of fans these leagues would appeal to just want to be able to turn on their tv and watch games, and don't necessarily want to buy a cable package to do so.  OTA subchannel networks might be the way to go.

[neo_prankster]

@NicDB

 

Vinyl records were called a sinking ship in the mid 80s...and look what's happening now!

 

But I digress.

 

Just as I briefly mentioned earlier, I'd favor the OTA subchannels. Speaking of which, I wonder how many current cable channels could still survive as OTL subchannels. I guess the channels owned by Disney, including the ones they just bought from Rupert Murdoch, should fit comfortably with most ABC affiliates.

[Red Comet]

21 minutes ago, neo_prankster said:

@NicDB

 

Vinyl records were called a sinking ship in the mid 80s...and look what's happening now!

 

But I digress.

 

Just as I briefly mentioned earlier, I'd favor the OTA subchannels. Speaking of which, I wonder how many current cable channels could still survive as OTL subchannels. I guess the channels owned by Disney, including the ones they just bought from Rupert Murdoch, should fit comfortably with most ABC affiliates.

 

There's also the sound quality with vinyl that can't be replicated with cassettes, CDs and digitial files. Plus, the whole setup needed for vinyl just has a vintage flair that cannot be matched.

 

No one is going to be nostalgic for 400 channels with nothing on when you have nearly unlimited options with the Internet IMVHO. It would be like being nostalgic for a horse and buggy when you have a Ferrari. 

[MilSox]

1 hour ago, neo_prankster said:

@NicDB

 

Vinyl records were called a sinking ship in the mid 80s...and look what's happening now!

 

But I digress.

 

Just as I briefly mentioned earlier, I'd favor the OTA subchannels. Speaking of which, I wonder how many current cable channels could still survive as OTL subchannels. I guess the channels owned by Disney, including the ones they just bought from Rupert Murdoch, should fit comfortably with most ABC affiliates.

To that, I'd say the OTA subchannels are to modern television what UHF stations (which usually carried local MLB/NBA/NHL broadcasts) were in the 70s and 80s.  Right now it's kind of the wild west as the industry figures out what to do with them, but I could definitely see it going in a direction like you describe.  

[dfwabel]

2 hours ago, NicDB said:

I think Bounce TV shows a package of HBCU football games, or at least used to.  I can also think of a few local wrestling promotions being distributed nationally through syndication on other OTA subchannel networks like it.  But the nature of these networks is such that the league would most likely have to produce its own television.  Which would probably necessitate that these leagues be regional, rather than national.  Although I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, because any new league needs to be focused on replacing the NCAA, and not the NFL. 

The NBA G-League started off as regional league that was distributed mostly on ESPN's non-flagship networks, so it's not as if there's not some sort of precedent here.  But cable is a sinking ship and streaming services aren't quite as mainstream as I think a lot of people believe.  Even then, how widely distributed are any of these services really, other than Netflix and Amazon Prime?

I really think the type of fans these leagues would appeal to just want to be able to turn on their tv and watch games, and don't necessarily want to buy a cable package to do so.  OTA subchannel networks might be the way to go.

2

I don't think they've shown games for a few years.  They were showing HBCU Division II teams of the SIAC earlier in the decade before Central State moved from NAIA, but they're now with FloSports

[Gothamite]

On 4/4/2019 at 6:33 PM, GDAWG said:

I would not be surprised at all if the MLS started an eSports league because that is the "hip and cool" thing to be a part of now apparently.  Also, the NBA has their own eSports league

 

Well...

 

 

MLS ANNOUNCES eMLS, A NEW COMPETITIVE GAMING LEAGUE FOR EA SPORTS FIFA 18

[GDAWG]

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

Well...

 

 

MLS ANNOUNCES eMLS, A NEW COMPETITIVE GAMING LEAGUE FOR EA SPORTS FIFA 18

 

Seriously? 

[Gothamite]

Sadly, yes. 

[neo_prankster]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:33 PM, NicDB said:

To that, I'd say the OTA subchannels are to modern television what UHF stations (which usually carried local MLB/NBA/NHL broadcasts) were in the 70s and 80s.  Right now it's kind of the wild west as the industry figures out what to do with them, but I could definitely see it going in a direction like you describe.  

 

To be honest, I kinda like that wild west feeling. Regulation would just make things too corporate...ya know what I mean?

 

Getting back to that Greg Schiano idea...he basically wanted to replace kickoffs with basically punts, right?

[MilSox]

4 minutes ago, neo_prankster said:

 

To be honest, I kinda like that wild west feeling. Regulation would just make things too corporate...ya know what I mean?

 

Getting back to that Greg Schiano idea...he basically wanted to replace kickoffs with basically punts, right?

 

Oh, I'm definitely enjoying the "wild west" while I can because in all likelihood, it wont last. People want to pretend that YouTube and streaming services have supplanted tv, but this is honestly the best broadcast television has been since the heyday of UHF stations.

 

But to answer your question, that is the Scaino proposal in a nutshell and I find it to be a fair compromise and suitable replacement for kickoffs. Not nearly as many guys barrelling down the field for nearly as long. 

[CaliforniaGlowin]

How is indoor/arena football still going when an outfield football league can barely last a few seasons if that?

[The_Admiral]

The NFL's success is in the brand equity of its teams and the elite talent of its players. College has the first but not necessarily the second. Alternative leagues have neither. The end.

[The_Admiral]

3 hours ago, neo_prankster said:

Getting back to that Greg Schiano idea...he basically wanted to replace kickoffs with basically punts, right?

 

I believe it was a punt at an automatic 4th/15, which would leave the opportunity for an onside-kick-equivalent desperation play with ensuing 1st down or turnover on downs. SB Nation did a video on it. I think that's a great idea, because there's an artistry to punting with hangtime and coffin-corners and downing whereas kickoffs now are just booting it into the stands. Anyone should welcome more strategy and less danger, even if Greg Schiano is usually kind of a dolt.

[CaliforniaGlowin]

18 hours ago, the admiral said:

The NFL's success is in the brand equity of its teams and the elite talent of its players. College has the first but not necessarily the second. Alternative leagues have neither. The end.

Well arena/indoor football makes it work somehow.  That's what I don't get.  It it just novelty and small town entertainment?

[Red Comet]

6 minutes ago, CaliforniaGlowin said:

Well arena/indoor football makes it work somehow.  That's what I don't get.  It it just novelty and small town entertainment?

 

Big thing there is that players are paid hundreds of dollars per game and buy their own insurance. That's a great way to keep costs down even if only a few thousand show up to your game. Not to mention that arena football teams move more than military families.

[pmoehrin]

44 minutes ago, CaliforniaGlowin said:

Well arena/indoor football makes it work somehow.  That's what I don't get.  It it just novelty and small town entertainment?

 

I would imagine their target demographic is roughly the same as a monster truck rally and minor league baseball — lots of kids and families who can't afford to go to NFL games.

 

Its a niche market with limited room for growth, but is also a very sustainable one because they aren't relying on star players to attract eyeballs. The product sells itself, which in that sense doesn't make them that different from the NFL.

 

The barriers of entry to create or own a team are much lower than those of the NFL because the associated costs are so much smaller. Player salaries are lower, and virtually every major city with at least 100K people in it has a suitable 10K arena to play in. You won't strike it rich owning an Arena team, but you won't lose your shirt either if things go sour.

 

When the league expanded and tried to gain a National television presence, that's when they got in trouble financially because they got away from the business model that was working for them. A league that banks on families coming out to games, should not be trying to run 18K downtown NBA arenas, but the AFL did so because that's what they thought they had to do to be taken seriously as a National product. That mentality nearly bankrupted them.

 

The best example I can site of this would be the New York CityHawks. They came into existence at the same time as the New Jersey Red Dogs who played across the river in the Meadowlands. The CityHawks played at MSG. The Red Dogs outdrew them by almost double. Why? A. Becuase they were a better team, but also because it is damn near impossible to market family-friendly events at a venue like MSG. Most family acts that come into the NYC-metro area will avoid running the Garden altogether for precisely this reason. You price people out just from the cost associated with turning the lights on.

 

When Arena football came back to the NYC metro area in the form of the New York Dragons, they wisely picked to go to the Nassau Coliseum instead, and typical attendance was around 10K a game throughout their existence which lasted eight years.

 

The biggest lesson I think you can take away from the AFL is that TV isn't everything, but location is. There's nothing wrong with trying to establish yourself in major markets, or even playing in a major arena. The Philadelphia Soul have been doing both since 2004. But understand where your target audience lives and what their price limitations are.

[Red Comet]

22 minutes ago, pmoehrin said:

But understand where your target audience lives and what their price limitations are.

 

This. Its also funny when you see all the various regional indoor football leagues around small-town America and then it hit me: We already have a workable version of minor league football but without any association with the NFL much less any other league and its a different form of football. 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

2 hours ago, pmoehrin said:

When the league expanded and tried to gain a National television presence, that's when they got in trouble financially because they got away from the business model that was working for them. A league that banks on families coming out to games, should not be trying to run 18K downtown NBA arenas, but the AFL did so because that's what they thought they had to do to be taken seriously as a National product. That mentality nearly bankrupted them.

 

The best example I can site of this would be the New York CityHawks. They came into existence at the same time as the New Jersey Red Dogs who played across the river in the Meadowlands. The CityHawks played at MSG.

 

You are right that my beloved CityHawks were ill-suited for the Arena League. But please be aware that the league did not seek MSG out; it was the MSG people who approached the league.

 

The AFL intended to have one team in the New York area: the New Jersey Red Dogs. But, seeing this, MSG ownership asked for their own team; and the league, likely blown away by having such big-time ownership on board, granted this organisation a team. The problem is that this came only a few months before the team was to take the field; by contrast, the Red Dogs had more than a year of preparation time.

 

Notwithstanding the relatively high costs of playing at the Garden, the CityHawks might have had a fighting chance if MSG had remembered to do any promotion. The biggest challenge that the CityHawks faced was that all of MSG's promotion attention went to the Liberty, who debuted in the same year of 1997.

 

Also, let us realise that, at the time, the idea that the Arena Football League could become the fifth major sports league (a position that MLS has since earned) did not seem completely out of the question.

 

The AFL had brand equity in certain cities; the Orlando Predators and the Tampa Bay Storm received hometown coverage befitting a major league outfit, as did the Iowa Barnstormers and the Albany Firebirds. The league also had identifiable superstars, such as Jay Gruden, George LaFrance, Kurt Warner, Eddie Brown, and, the king of them all, Barry Wagner (the Babe Ruth of Arena Football). It had star coaches, such as Tim Marcum and Danny White; and big-time owners such as Jerry Colangelo and the Garden people. This continued into the NBC years, as the league attracted John Elway, Tom Benson, and Ron Jaworski (Jaws is still there).

 

The Arena League had many games at which the attendance exceeded 20,000; and the Arena Bowl matchup between Tampa Bay and Orlando was played before a crowd approaching 30,000. One time in the late 90s, the Milwaukee Mustangs outdrew the Milwaukee Brewers on a day when both were playing at home at the same time.

 

So it seemed entirely plausible that the Arena Football League was poised to take a step up in stature, and become recognised as one of the major leagues in American sports.

 

But NBC was not satisfied with the results of its partnership with the league; it evidently expected NFL-level viewership numbers, which was entirely unrealistic. Also, in partnering with NBC, the league moved its season up earlier in the year. Worse, it altered the fundamental structure of its game, getting rid of iron man football. No doubt this latter decision alienated many of the league's fans, who responded by dropping it. After a few years, NBC did likewise.

 

And thus closed the window for the Arena Football League to elevate itself to the stature of fifth major league.

 

A couple of years later, the league folded as s means of fending off a players' union that was getting more active in seeking a fairer distribution of revenue. After one season of inactivity, new single-entity organisation emerged and purchased the league's assets and declared itself to be the continuation of the original league. But the vastly lower pay structure led to a decline in the level of play, which, in turn, killed off fan interest.

 

The league has since suffered embarrassingly ill-prepared owners (Vince Neil), teams folding midseason, and a reduction to as few as four teams. Some AFL teams bolted for other leagues, including the historic Arizona Rattlers and the powerhouse Jacksonville Sharks. What is striking to realise is that the AFL is not only no longer any threat to become the fifth major league, but it is not even necessarily the top league in indoor/arena football.