ProfessorBigShots

How is Arena Football not more popular?

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22 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

 

No deal.

 

The owners of the New York Streets were incompetent and irresponsible. They were also dishonest: at the start of the season they announced that the team would be playing some games at Madison Square Garden, even though there was never any such agreement in place, and all Streets home games were always going to be played at the undersized Westchester County Center. 

 

The burglary fiasco over which these owners presided brought only ridicule to the NAL and to the sport of arena football — and, by extension, to all small leagues. I resent this team for its negative contribution to the image of smaller leagues. The Streets were properly booted from the NAL.

 

I possess some New York Streets team gear. And even at selling hats and shirts to an eager buyer this team proved incompetent; earlier in this thread I described the big hassle of getting these idiots to take my money. I will sometimes wear these items because they look cool; and, when someone asks what that logo is, I am ready with an account of the team's dysfunction.

 

I have neither loyalty to nor respect for the owners of the New York Streets; and I can only suggest that someone who admonishes against psychoanalysing others would do well to heed his own advice.

 

Finally, my socialist concern for working people is fully intact.

 

In the first season of the ABA, the team that would the next seasom become the New York Nets was slated to host a one-game tiebreaker playoff game. The team arranged to rent an arena in Commack, Long Island because its regular home arena in Teaneck, New Jersey (the team was the New Jersey Americans for that season) was not available. But the Commack arena, after it was inspected by the league, was deemed unplayable. A forfeit was charged against the New Jersey team. This is an example of a genuine case of workplace safety.

 

 

 

Only the prospect of being fined more money than they made from the game's gate receipts, and then getting booted from the league. Contrary to your assertion, the Streets did not get "a slap on the wrist"; in fact they got the death penalty. (And rightfully so.)

 

Unfortunately, Carolina got what amounted to no penalty at all for walking off the field without authorisation, as the forfeit loss did nothing to prevent them from advancing to the championship game.

 

 

 

That's more than most fans have done to support small leagues, certainly way more that I do, even given my purchase of gear from the Arena League, the NAL, the MLL, WTT, and others.  

 

I therefore retract my assertion that your comments are motivated by a hatred of small leagues, and offer my apology to you.

 

But I do believe that that attitude is prevalent. If the NBA or NFL made a decision not to halt a game, but a team walked off anyway, no one would begrudge one of those leagues calling a forfeit against the abandoning team.

 

 

 

I can't go along with this. I continue to assert that the idea that no team may act unilaterally should indeed be a universally-held value.

 

Even if someone disagrees with the league's decision on not calling off a game (which, as I have already acknowledged, is a reasonable position), once the decision to continue the game has been made by the league, all fans need to agree that a team has no right to disregard that league decision. We must (in the words of the great Sam Hinkie) trust the process. Otherwise pro sports are a sham.

 

 

 

 

You got that right. In the 1890s, the National League had a big problem with what came to be known as "syndicate baseball", whereby owners had stakes in multiple teams. National League teams in Baltimore and Brooklyn were under common ownership, as were the New York Giants and Cincinnati Reds. After the most egregious case, in which the common owners of the St. Louis and Cleveland teams moved all their best players to St. Louis and consigned the 1899 Cleveland team to the worst season in history, the National League finally made a rule against this practice.

 

We got rid of that sort of corruption in baseball a long time ago, only to see it reappear in today's small leagues. We really need a federal law that prohibits ownership of multiple teams in the same league. Such a law would also rule out the odious "single-entity" structure, under which all teams are owned centrally by the league, which, in effect, results in all owners having stakes in all teams. 

 

The XFL has that structure.  All 8 teams are owned by Vince McMahon.  The AAF went single entity and we all know how that worked out. The Big 4 has all individual owners.  MLS has investors, not owners and I think that the Indoor leagues should go this route at least. Single entity is a conflict of interest in a lot of ways.  If one ones multiple teams in the same league and that owner has a lot of power in that league (as Rob Stone does in the NAL) it would be considered as favoritism, giving those teams an unfair advantage over everyone else. 

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Quote

MLS has investors, not owners and I think that the Indoor leagues should go this route at least. Single entity is a conflict of interest in a lot of ways.  If one ones multiple teams in the same league and that owner has a lot of power in that league (as Rob Stone does in the NAL) it would be considered as favoritism, giving those teams an unfair advantage over everyone else. 


Single-entity is not at all the same thing as one person owning more than one team.

 

Single-entity is a creative corporate structure that in practice is virtually identical to franchise structures like MLB, the NFL, or NBA.  There’s a greater difference between condo and co-op apartments than there is between single-entity and the franchise model.  Yet nobody doubts that co-op “shareholders” actually own their apartments in all but the most technical sense.

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1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 


Single-entity is not at all the same thing as one person owning more than one team.

 

Single-entity is a creative corporate structure that in practice is virtually identical to franchise structures like MLB, the NFL, or NBA.  There’s a greater difference between condo and co-op apartments than there is between single-entity and the franchise model.  Yet nobody doubts that co-op “shareholders” actually own their apartments in all but the most technical sense.

 

Ah okay.  Still I think one person owning multiple teams is not a good idea.  It never is and it's one of the reason's that the sport of Indoor Football is a mess. That and the leagues tend to allow anyone in who has money without regard for background checks.  It's the total opposite of how the major professional leagues vet potential owners.  I always wonder how the owners of these indoor teams make their money.  The only indoor/arena football team owners with any credibility were Ted Leonsis and (probably) Ron Jaworski.  We know how both made their money and where it came from.  For many of these owners, an indoor football team is the only team they own so they lack the experience to own a sports team.  Now I know that the NFL experiment with the AFL failed, but at the least some of these owners could own minor league teams in other sports but they don't. 

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10 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Ah okay.  Still I think one person owning multiple teams is not a good idea. It never is and it's one of the reason's that the sport of Indoor Football is a mess.

 

You're absolutely correct.  Major League Soccer did this for a while, but only out of desperation, and as soon as the league was stable (meaning the strategy had worked), the owners sold off the extra teams to new ownership.

 

10 hours ago, GDAWG said:

That and the leagues tend to allow anyone in who has money without regard for background checks.  It's the total opposite of how the major professional leagues vet potential owners.  I always wonder how the owners of these indoor teams make their money.  The only indoor/arena football team owners with any credibility were Ted Leonsis and (probably) Ron Jaworski.  We know how both made their money and where it came from.  For many of these owners, an indoor football team is the only team they own so they lack the experience to own a sports team.  Now I know that the NFL experiment with the AFL failed, but at the least some of these owners could own minor league teams in other sports but they don't. 

 

 

This is the real problem.  Many minor leagues don't properly vet new owners, largely because they themselves can't afford to.  If they kept out the hustlers and con men, they wouldn't have enough owners at all.  Keeping with our soccer theme, we saw this with the second incarnation of the NASL.  They took in people who just didn't have the money to run a team, and then expressed shock and surprise when they failed to keep up.

 

You want to talk competitive integrity?  It starts with the league making sure that the owners can afford to pay the bills and then ensuring that they do.

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2 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

You're absolutely correct.  Major League Soccer did this for a while, but only out of desperation, and as soon as the league was stable (meaning the strategy had worked), the owners sold off the extra teams to new ownership.

 

 

 

This is the real problem.  Many minor leagues don't properly vet new owners, largely because they themselves can't afford to.  If they kept out the hustlers and con men, they wouldn't have enough owners at all.  Keeping with our soccer theme, we saw this with the second incarnation of the NASL.  They took in people who just didn't have the money to run a team, and then expressed shock and surprise when they failed to keep up.

 

You want to talk competitive integrity?  It starts with the league making sure that the owners can afford to pay the bills and then ensuring that they do.

 

MLS has a stable group of owners these days, despite one of them being an over privileged trust fund baby who tries to be super cool (but fails to do so) by becoming friends with Matthew McConaghuey (his name being Anthony Precourt).  And despite 200 owners for LAFC, they do have former NBA executive Tom Penn as the face of the ownership group as he represented the group when they announced the 2020 All Star Game (plus they have people involved who own the Golden State Warriors, LA Dodgers and Joe Tsai, the owner of the Brooklyn Nets and owners of Cardiff City and QPR).  From the recent expansion teams that have more than one owner, I would assume that with St. Louis, Carolyn Kindle Betz will be the public face of their ownership.  Same for Sacramento and Kevin Nagle.  With Miami, the face of ownership is David Beckham.  Also a large majority of MLS owners own teams in other sports and two brand new minority MLS owners, Russell Wilson and James Harden are still actively playing.  MLS' ownership strategy tends to lean towards owners who own sports teams in the Big 4 or sometimes European soccer clubs.  Nothing wrong with that though as it ensures stability for MLS clubs. 

 

It's another thing about these indoor teams, sometimes they have a bunch of owners and nobody to represent the team as face of ownership, which causes chaos.  Having someone has the face of the ownership group represents stability, but sadly these indoor teams do not have any.  It means a revolving door of presidents, GM's and coaches. 

 

If I remember correctly, the NBA G League no longer has the issue of unstable owners since a majority of them are owned by NBA teams anyways. 

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This chick who pulled the jack move was employed by the Streets.  When a person is hired to do a job, there is a certain level of implied trust that the worker will not commit a crime.  Yes there should have been better security, but one would think these kind of things wouldn't happen.  And better security requires more money, which a new small team wouldn't have.

 

If a worker steals from a big company, the company doesn't send people home citing workplace safety, they just fire the worker.  It's not like the Streets thief was packin a gun in the place, she was just trying to be opportunistic and saw a lack of security.

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3 hours ago, CaliforniaGlowin said:

This chick who pulled the jack move was employed by the Streets.  When a person is hired to do a job, there is a certain level of implied trust that the worker will not commit a crime.  Yes there should have been better security, but one would think these kind of things wouldn't happen.  And better security requires more money, which a new small team wouldn't have.

 

If a worker steals from a big company, the company doesn't send people home citing workplace safety, they just fire the worker.  It's not like the Streets thief was packin a gun in the place, she was just trying to be opportunistic and saw a lack of security.

 

This is how unstable indoor teams are, that they don't even screen or vet employees.  It is yet another reason the sport isn't taken seriously. 

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2 hours ago, GDAWG said:

 

This is how unstable indoor teams are, that they don't even screen or vet employees.  It is yet another reason the sport isn't taken seriously. 

Nah - it isn't taken seriously because too many teams are fly by night.

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This popped up in my Instagram feed yesterday. I'm guessing someone is buying up the IP. Columbus was supposed to announce a new name but that's now been delayed. 

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Indoor League updates:

 

Indoor Football League: In the middle of Free Agency right now.  They intend to play in 2021, but without the Oakland Panthers or Quad City Steamwheelers, both of whom are dormant for 2021 with every intention of returning in 2022.  They expect to announce their schedule soon, but that seems overly optimistic.  I would think that the future of the IFL and the sport in general would be in serious doubt if they don't play in 2021.  

 

National Arena League: West Virginia Steamwheelers are dormant for 2021 and plan on coming back for 2022.  They kicked two of their newest expansion teams, The Louisville Xtreme (who's ownership group features former NFL QB Chris Redman) and Tampa Bay Tornadoes yesterday.  They too are in the middle of free agency and have every intention on playing in 2021, but like the IFL, I think Indoor football is in serious jeopardy of being extinct if none of the leagues play in 2021.  

 

Champions Indoor Football: They added a team called the Wyoming Mustangs.  A few weeks ago, they released their schedule for 2021, which sounds too optimistic for me.  Like the IFL and NAL, they are in the middle of free agency.

 

America West Football Conference: Added a new team called the Oregon High Desert Storm.  Like the IFL, NAL and CIF, they plan on playing in 2021 and are in the middle of free agency.

 

American Arena League: Also expects to play in 2021.  

 

In conclusion, these leagues seem optimistic that they will play in March/April 2021.  These leagues better hope that they are able to play in 2021 or I don't think the sport survives.

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2 hours ago, GDAWG said:

America West Football Conference: Added a new team called the Oregon High Desert Storm

They let a high school team into the league?

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16 hours ago, ManillaToad said:

They let a high school team into the league?

 

No, that's the nickname. The High Desert Storm will be playing their games in Redmond, Oregon. This marks the first Oregon based team in the AWFC.

 

A few things @GDAWG didn't mention...

 

National Arena League: Along with Louisville and Tampa Bay getting the boot, they added a team in Albany, New York... That's right, the Empire is back.

 

Indoor Football League: Along with Oakland and Quad City sitting out this season, the league has added two teams: Massachusetts (a former NAL member who left before the 2020 season) and Northern Arizona (expansion franchise)

 

Champions Indoor Football: The Wyoming Mustangs play in Gillette, Wyoming. Gillette is actually one of the biggest cities in Wyoming, so this works out well for them.

 

American Arena League: This league has had the largest expansion of the leagues so far as four teams are set to join next season - The Allen Tiger-Cats, The San Antonio Gunslingers (Who are planning to play in the Alamodome), The Topeka Thundercats and the West Texas Buccaneers (playing in El Paso). The league also added 5 teams from a semi pro league as well.

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2 hours ago, Seadragon76 said:

 

No, that's the nickname. The High Desert Storm will be playing their games in Redmond, Oregon. This marks the first Oregon based team in the AWFC.

 

A few things @GDAWG didn't mention...

 

National Arena League: Along with Louisville and Tampa Bay getting the boot, they added a team in Albany, New York... That's right, the Empire is back.

 

Indoor Football League: Along with Oakland and Quad City sitting out this season, the league has added two teams: Massachusetts (a former NAL member who left before the 2020 season) and Northern Arizona (expansion franchise)

 

Champions Indoor Football: The Wyoming Mustangs play in Gillette, Wyoming. Gillette is actually one of the biggest cities in Wyoming, so this works out well for them.

 

American Arena League: This league has had the largest expansion of the leagues so far as four teams are set to join next season - The Allen Tiger-Cats, The San Antonio Gunslingers (Who are planning to play in the Alamodome), The Topeka Thundercats and the West Texas Buccaneers (playing in El Paso). The league also added 5 teams from a semi pro league as well.

 

Yeah.  However, there's no guarantee that any of these leagues will be playing in 2021 if the state of COVID in America is the same as it is now.  I believe if none of the leagues play in 2021, it will be the end of all of these leagues.

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5 hours ago, Seadragon76 said:

 

No, that's the nickname. The High Desert Storm will be playing their games in Redmond, Oregon. This marks the first Oregon based team in the AWFC.

 

A few things @GDAWG didn't mention...

 

National Arena League: Along with Louisville and Tampa Bay getting the boot, they added a team in Albany, New York... That's right, the Empire is back.

 

Indoor Football League: Along with Oakland and Quad City sitting out this season, the league has added two teams: Massachusetts (a former NAL member who left before the 2020 season) and Northern Arizona (expansion franchise)

 

Champions Indoor Football: The Wyoming Mustangs play in Gillette, Wyoming. Gillette is actually one of the biggest cities in Wyoming, so this works out well for them.

 

American Arena League: This league has had the largest expansion of the leagues so far as four teams are set to join next season - The Allen Tiger-Cats, The San Antonio Gunslingers (Who are planning to play in the Alamodome), The Topeka Thundercats and the West Texas Buccaneers (playing in El Paso). The league also added 5 teams from a semi pro league as well.

Adding 5 teams from a semi-pro league?

 

WARNING WARNING WARNING ⚠️ 🤡💣

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On 11/1/2020 at 7:37 PM, Sec19Row53 said:

Adding 5 teams from a semi-pro league?

 

WARNING WARNING WARNING ⚠️🤡💣

I think the San Antonio team was playing in Austin last year but still calling themselves San Antonio.

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3 hours ago, CaliforniaGlowin said:

I get a team close by and it has to have a dumb name like that. 🙄

 

It's stupid because of travel issues.  Ontario is in California while the rest of the NAL are based East of the Mississippi River.  

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