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Tampa Bay Rays: Escape from the Trop


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3 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

If a team needs to reduce their capacity to 22k just to fill it, that's an indication that there shouldn't be a team there.  I'm not advocating for the return of 50k-60k stadiums, but something like what the Pirates have should be the minimum (I think it's 35k).  It's just a minor-league look to have such a small stadium, and it really sucks for fans too, since if the team ever does get any support, the tiny capacity will just freeze too many people out.

 

Agreed, 35,000-50,000 seems to be the ideal range for baseball (and really, you shouldn't be going above 45,000 unless you're the Yankees or Dodgers, or maybe the Mets). Dip into the 20s, and you're charging major-league prices for a minor-league venue -- in fact, you might even try to get away with charging more for the "intimate experience," which would be highly stupid in Florida for obvious market-saturation reasons.

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1 hour ago, the admiral said:

 

Agreed, 35,000-50,000 seems to be the ideal range for baseball (and really, you shouldn't be going above 45,000 unless you're the Yankees or Dodgers, or maybe the Mets). Dip into the 20s, and you're charging major-league prices for a minor-league venue -- in fact, you might even try to get away with charging more for the "intimate experience," which would be highly stupid in Florida for obvious market-saturation reasons.

 

I'd err on the side of too big.  When the Phillies had a 5+ year sellout streak (I think CBP is 45k), it was nearly impossible for a parent to take their kids to a major league game without paying an unreasonable amount of money, and even then, it was probably SRO.  I'd rather for major league baseball (and sports in general) to be more accessible to people, and not be big business for scumbag resellers.

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Yeah, I don’t miss the days of cavernous multiuse ballparks, but I don’t love the excuse of “more intimate” as a dog whistle for “more luxury seats”. Something tells me we’re gonna go the wrong way on that particular issue in the coming 1-3 years, though.

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18 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

You haven't lived until you watch a baseball game with 3500 other people in a stadium that seats 80,000. 


digging deep on this one... I saw both Toronto and Atlanta (old stadium) but both, I believe, pre-97 so crowds weren’t swallowed up. 
 

been to like 20 Revolution MLS games through the years to get that idea, though.

 

EDIT: I should say old old stadium for Atlanta. Can’t keep up!

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3 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

You haven't lived until you watch a baseball game with 3500 other people in a stadium that seats 80,000. 

 

It's one reason when the A's suck I always recommend people make a trip to the Oakland Coliseum. Won't be too much longer that you'll be able to have that experience. And you're right... there's nothing like it. Don't know if that's a good thing... but it's definitely a thing. 

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12 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

You haven't lived until you watch a baseball game with 3500 other people in a stadium that seats 80,000. 

 

Fact: nobody spread coronavirus in 3/4-empty Veteran's stadium, Cleveland stadium, Riverfront, Three Rivers, etc.  Let's let that sink in for a minute.

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  • 1 year later...
13 minutes ago, TBGKon said:

This just got reported and I'm curious what it might end up doing, if anything.  The report states that Sternberg's alleged communication could violate the agreement with the City of St Petersburg.

 

Tampa Bay Rays minority owners say Sternberg secretly negotiated Montreal deal in new lawsuit

:censored: Stu Sternberg. Hope Vinik comes in and gets the Rays; he'd make them a far better franchise with how well the Lightning have done since he took over.

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37 minutes ago, TBGKon said:

This just got reported and I'm curious what it might end up doing, if anything.  The report states that Sternberg's alleged communication could violate the agreement with the City of St Petersburg.

 

Tampa Bay Rays minority owners say Sternberg secretly negotiated Montreal deal in new lawsuit

 

This really isn't a surprise, given that Bronfman was at a Rays playoff game in 2019, during talks to become a minority owner.

 

 

Also, this was known over a year ago:

 

The whole situation is scummy as all heck, and believe me, I've seen and researched many a scummy tactic with my series. Like the more blatant ones, this just feels like it'll end in a courtroom or a settlement, with only whatever fans the Rays have (or prospective neo-Expos fans) getting hurt.

 

Tampa Bay was a mistake of an expansion, created only to keep Vince Naimoli and company from threatening MLB's antitrust exemption after so many MLB clubs blue-balled that market to get new stadiums. History has proven George Steinbrenner right when he said, in reference to St. Petersburg trying to build a stadium, "Don't build it. They won't come."1 While it was intentional disinformation on Steinbrenner's part to discredit stadium efforts for his own reasons, the way the expansion has transpired has demonstrated a genuine insight into the market.

 

1 Bob Andelman and Lori Parsells, Stadium For Rent: Tampa Bay’s Quest for Major League Baseball, 2nd edition (St. Petersburg, FL: CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, 2015), xiv. 

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1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

Tampa Bay was a mistake of an expansion, created only to keep Vince Naimoli and company from threatening MLB's antitrust exemption after so many MLB clubs blue-balled that market to get new stadiums. History has proven George Steinbrenner right when he said, in reference to St. Petersburg trying to build a stadium, "Don't build it. They won't come."1 While it was intentional disinformation on Steinbrenner's part to discredit stadium efforts for his own reasons, the way the expansion has transpired has demonstrated a genuine insight into the market.

Honestly, though, I feel like this whole thing does more to discredit the location for the Trop over the actual support the region has for baseball. The Rays do well for a smaller-market team locally when it comes to viewership, so I don't think it's the overall region that's the problem here, necessarily.

 

The biggest part of the problem for the Rays is that they're not the Lightning, they're the Loria Expos.

 

They don't have Jeff Vinik pushing them to great success by spending; they have Stu Sternberg, an owner that's willing to spend more effort plotting ways to move than he is to try and actually make an honest college try out of the Tampa Bay region.

They don't have a really nice centrally-located park to play out of that's easy for people to get to, they have a decrepit fossil that's a pain in the ass to travel to and from if you don't live in one specific part of the area.

 

Combine a cheapass owner everybody in the local area hates with a decrepit venue that's not fun to travel to or fun to be in and most franchises would struggle.

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50 minutes ago, Ridleylash said:

Honestly, though, I feel like this whole thing does more to discredit the location for the Trop over the actual support the region has for baseball. The Rays do well for a smaller-market team locally when it comes to viewership, so I don't think it's the overall region that's the problem here, necessarily.

 

They don't have Jeff Vinik pushing them to great success by spending; they have Stu Sternberg, an owner that's willing to spend more effort plotting ways to move than he is to try and actually make an honest college try out of the Tampa Bay region.

They don't have a really nice centrally-located park to play out of that's easy for people to get to, they have a decrepit fossil that's a pain in the ass to travel to and from if you don't live in one specific part of the area.

 

Or, maybe the market is the problem. While viewership has apparently been high, it has never translated into ticket sales or any sustained presence in the region. At some point, it can't all be the stadium or the location or the owner. There has never been any string of attendance success with the Rays. During the '08 pennant run, the team had to give away playoff tickets.

 

Give. Away. Playoff. Tickets.

 

AccomplishedLimpBluetonguelizard-size_re

 

Even the worst days of Candles**t, the Giants never gave away playoff tickets. The A's have never given away playoff tickets. That's a new level of bad.

 

50 minutes ago, Ridleylash said:

Combine a cheapass owner everybody in the local area hates with a decrepit venue that's not fun to travel to or fun to be in and most franchises would struggle.

 

Fair, but even a good owner and a good stadium can't overcome the outright lack of interest the region shows in the Rays. It was a Jacksonville Jaguars/Atlanta Thrashers-level error. Two bad ownership groups crippled whatever miniscule chance the team had of being successful, but let's not pretend like regular season MLB was doing well in the Tampa Bay Area after over a decade of blue-balling by MLB. I want Tampa Bay baseball to work, I really do, but I just don't think it was ever going to work in the long or short term.

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1 hour ago, Ridleylash said:

Honestly, though, I feel like this whole thing does more to discredit the location for the Trop over the actual support the region has for baseball. The Rays do well for a smaller-market team locally when it comes to viewership, so I don't think it's the overall region that's the problem here, necessarily.

 

The television ratings are helped by a disproportionate number of games against the Yankees and the Red Sox, the Tampa Bay area's two favorite teams.

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44 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

The television ratings are helped by a disproportionate number of games against the Yankees and the Red Sox, the Tampa Bay area's two favorite teams.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious about the evidence of the ratings breakdown per team. I doubt the Rays or their network affiliate want to make it public. What would the 38 Yankees and Red Sox games draw in comparison to the other 124 games?

 

I hear the Yankees-Red Sox sound bite often enough that I want some evidentiary proof. Again, I'm not totally disputing it, I'm just wondering about the statistical validity. 

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