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MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside


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On 7/7/2019 at 1:33 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Are there any American sports rivalries where the rivalry between cities does matter?  Boston and NY aren't "rivals", because they're not competing for attention or to be the cultural or economic center.  It's just sports.  Boston could have a rivalry with Philadelphia, but to my knowledge doesn't.  I don't see any way in which St. Louis and Chicago are rivals outside the context of sports.  Maybe NY has one with LA over being the entertainment or media capital of the country?  Maybe the CA cities do?  DAL/HOU?  IDK.  

 

I don't see any American rivalries that would be based on anything as deep as what the TOR/MTL one is.


Chicago and Green Bay, maybe?  It's frequently turned into a proxy war for urban America vs rural America.

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https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2020/01/30/hardball-rays-threaten-to-block-redevelopment-of-tropicana-field/

 

Quote

The Tampa Bay Rays are now playing hardball with the most lucrative piece of property in the city.

 

Rays officials have told City Council members that the team will hold up any attempts to develop the 86-acre Tropicana Field site while its locked into playing at the dome through the 2027 season.

 

That’s what team president Brian Auld conveyed to council members during a spate of rapid-fire meetings held Tuesday and Wednesday, according to two council members.

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The revelation of the Rays’ hardball stance comes the day before what could be a contentious meeting between the City Council members and the Krisemans administration on Thursday about the fate of the Rays and the land underneath the Trop.

 

Council members Amy Foster and Darden Rice both said Auld, in his meetings with them this week, referenced a quote from former St. Petersburg city attorney John Wolfe that appeared in a July 15, 2019 Tampa Bay Times article about the redevelopment of Tropicana Field.

 

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https://ballparkdigest.com/2020/02/07/rob-manfred-backs-rays-pursuit-of-split-season-plan/

 

Commissioner Manfred, have you no shame?

 

I am sorry, but I cannot think of much else to say about the person presumably in charge of the whole of MLB granting an official, public blessing to Sternberg's complexity-inducing, greed-laden, hubris-laden, almost certainly fan-alienating plan for the future of the Rays.

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I can only speak for myself but I was close to pulling the trigger on becoming a STM as I found myself genuinely rooting for the Rays the past two seasons and attending more and more games. However after what I've heard the past 24 hours, my support has been officially exhausted. I'll continue spending my money on the Bolts and soon the Vipers instead. 

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2 hours ago, Walk-Off said:

https://ballparkdigest.com/2020/02/07/rob-manfred-backs-rays-pursuit-of-split-season-plan/

 

Commissioner Manfred, have you no shame?

 

I am sorry, but I cannot think of much else to say about the person presumably in charge of the whole of MLB granting an official, public blessing to Sternberg's complexity-inducting, greed-laden, hubris-laden, almost certainly fan-alienating plan for the future of the Rays.

 

It's not just Manfred:

 

"saying he and MLB team owners view it as a viable plan."

 

What I want to know, is this: Was there anyone in that room who has half a brain?

 

EDIT: Nah, they aren't being stupid. I think they think this is actually going to fly in their markets. Sorry, no one is going to go watch the Omaha-Kansas City Royals. 

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Of course he's going to say that.  He has to. Either Tampa will et scarred and pony up for a full-time park, Montreal will get excited and just build something that would allow them to have the team full time, or it actually happens and becomes a case study.

 

I doubt that any of them actually think the split-season thing will work, but the more they support it, the more likely the local gorernments will seize the opportunity to build a new dome stadium.

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"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."

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5 hours ago, Walk-Off said:

https://ballparkdigest.com/2020/02/07/rob-manfred-backs-rays-pursuit-of-split-season-plan/

 

Commissioner Manfred, have you no shame?

 

I am sorry, but I cannot think of much else to say about the person presumably in charge of the whole of MLB granting an official, public blessing to Sternberg's complexity-inducting, greed-laden, hubris-laden, almost certainly fan-alienating plan for the future of the Rays.

 

I'm sure the players association will have something to say about that.

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It’s still amazing to me that that an expansion team was able to move into that dump with a 30-year lease starting in 1998.  That is only three years before contraction talk started and after completion of current ballparks in Cleveland, Baltimore, and Colorado, not to mention the now-defunct park in Arlington.and several high-revenue parks (Houston, Milwaukee, SF, Detroit) were under construction.

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Disclaimer: If this comment is about an NBA uniform from 2017-2018 or later, do not constitute a lack of acknowledgement of the corporate logo to mean anything other than "the corporate logo is terrible and makes the uniform significantly worse."

 

BADGERS TWINS VIKINGS TIMBERWOLVES WILD

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On 10/21/2019 at 8:38 AM, Sport said:

Right. When you have a billion dollars you can easily get someone else to give you another billion dollars. That's not the problem. The problem is they want to reap the rewards without paying for it, which is another way they became billionaires in the first place. 

 

Also stadiums don't need to cost a billion dollars. Baseball stadium design should be moving more where MLS is now. If you're in a climate like Oakland's you don't need a retractable roof like the Rangers or like you would in Vegas and you don't need 65,000 seats. I'd love to see a major league team take a minor league style design and really trick it out with about 32,000 super intimate seats.

This is the direction I want the DBacks to go in here in Arizona.  They only sellout Chase Field when there is a World Series or when the Yankees or Red Sox visit.  There are good crowds for Cubs, Dodgers and Giants games too but nothing to the extent of a sellout.  I think this concept of 32,000 would do well here if they happen to build out on the Salt River Reservation. 

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1 minute ago, _J_ said:

PNC Park is only 38k and it's perfect. 

 

LV should be looking at the same size, as well as the majority of new parks.

 

IT's relative.  CBP is around 44k and I think that works for them.  Making it smaller is like saying that you don't expect to often have good teams.  Making it bigger is like saying you always expect to be a contender.  That might work for some teams, but I think 44 is the sweet spot for the Phillies.  The downside is that when they're good, the secondary market is obscene because they'll sell out 5 or more straight seasons.  The good side is that when they're usually bad, even 25k doesn't look too bad in a 44k park (except when most of the premium seats behind home plate are empty - that's certainly not a good look.

"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."

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On 10/22/2019 at 9:58 PM, _J_ said:

That was, from my memory, the reason behind the design on PNC Park. Owners wanted an intimate ballpark that emphasised the view of the city over adding additional seats. One of the best ballparks for those reasons.

 

Let's be fair here, the Pirates built a small ball park because they sucked for years before it was built and no one was showing up.  Having maybe 20k at a Bucs game in Three Rivers that held 50k wasn't a good look.  So they turned around and designed their 'small intimate ballpark'.  It's the same end point Snyder is going towards with FedEx, just coming in from a different direction, by removing half the upper bowl for the same reason. 

Now, credit where it's due.  PNC is a fantastically designed building, and the Pirates and HOK deserves all the praise they've gotten for how it turned out.  But if they were a better drawing team that stadium would have been built with a club level with an additional 5,000 seats.  

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On 2/27/2020 at 9:39 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

 

IT's relative.  CBP is around 44k and I think that works for them.  Making it smaller is like saying that you don't expect to often have good teams.  Making it bigger is like saying you always expect to be a contender.  That might work for some teams, but I think 44 is the sweet spot for the Phillies.  The downside is that when they're good, the secondary market is obscene because they'll sell out 5 or more straight seasons.  The good side is that when they're usually bad, even 25k doesn't look too bad in a 44k park (except when most of the premium seats behind home plate are empty - that's certainly not a good look.

I don't think the relativity is based on expected success, rather on market size and dynamics. The Indians have been one of the best franchises in baseball over the last 7 years, and certainly fit the "always expect to be a contender" bill right now, but recently reduced capacity of their ballpark (and aren't filling the smaller number either).

 

For about a quarter of the clubs in the league, I'd make the case that if a new ballpark were to be built, it shouldn't have a permanent capacity larger than 35,000. I'd say there are 9 true "small-market" clubs in baseball -- Cincinnati, Cleveland, Kansas City, Milwaukee and Pittsburgh have much lower populations than any other markets in baseball; Baltimore and Oakland are geographically constrained; Miami and Tampa Bay are in the wacky Florida sports climate. For whatever reason, the Brewers draw out their ass and buck the trend, but for the other 8 clubs in that list:

  • The Royals drew 2.5 million fans in 2015 and 2016, the only 2 times they've ever done so
  • The Orioles last drew 2.5 million fans in 2005
  • The Indians last drew 2.5 million fans in 2002
  • The Reds last drew 2.5 million fans in 2000; the only other time they'd done so was from 1976 through 1978
  • The Rays only drew 2.5 million fans in 1998, their inaugural season
  • The Marlins only drew 2.5 million fans in 1993, their inaugural season
  • The A's last drew 2.5 million fans from 1989 through 1991, the only time they've done so in franchise history
  • The Pirates have never drawn 2.5 million fans in a season

There's no reason that any of these clubs need more than 35,000 permanent seats in their stadium -- and Miami aside, it's not like these numbers are being influenced solely by bad baseball. Baltimore, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh each made 3 postseason appearances this decade that broke 15- or 20-year droughts; Oakland and Tampa Bay have made pretty regular playoff appearances and have shrewd front offices. That the recent high-water mark for these clubs is the Royals averaging ~33,000 the season after they broke a 28-year postseason drought to go to the World Series tells me that none of these clubs need a park larger than 35,000, irrespective of how good they expect to be.

 

The teams themselves recognize this, too -- Miami and Pittsburgh built their ballparks small; Kansas City kept capacity small in its renovation; Cleveland and Tampa Bay have reduced capacity as they can within their stadiums. When Oakland builds its new park and joins the trend, it'll be appropriate for them.

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