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The Montreal-Tampa Rays?

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40 minutes ago, insert name said:

If they're gonna move the Rays to Montreal then I request the (Ex)Rays and Nationals to swap leagues to have DC back in the AL and Montreal back in the NL. Order will then be restored.

Don't forget the Astros and Brewers

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6 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

For all the bitching about the first file sale, they went back to and won a second World Series.  Hard to feel too sorry for them. 

...then followed it up with a fire sale a few years later. Then came the stadium debacle, a second fire sale, several transformative players leaving via trades and one region-perfect playing making a fatal mistake. It’s a little easier to feel sorry for the fans that stuck by them.

 

Again, it could have worked. Huizenga and Loria made sure it wouldn’t work.

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Wow, baseball in Florida has looked awful for the past few years. It's not even like we can place it on the teams themselves being bad: the Marlins have two World Series titles (in like 25 years), and the Rays also made it the Fall Classic. The problem is, no one in the region seems to care. The Rays have been decent to pretty good for the past few years, but they're still setting record lows for attendance. That's pathetic. The Trop is obviously in an awful location, but I have to argue that the announcement of this split relocation has permanently killed any chance of this team staying in Tampa Bay forever. Whatever little goodwill the tiny fanbase has for the Rays is now gone. Even less people will show up, even if the partial move doesn't go through. As less people show up, the team will get more desperate for any kind of move, and Montreal may bend over backwards for a new stadium, and the Rays (and the MLB) leave the Tampa Bay area for good. It's a shame for the 10,000 (at most) people in the area that seem to care, but the market just is not right for the Majors.

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15 minutes ago, buzzcut said:

1. Contract both the Rays and Marlins.

I'm still really baffled when people think it's remotely possible that the Marlins are a candidate or relocation or contraction. Are you ignoring the fact that they are playing in a brand new, state of the art, climate controlled ballpark? MLB wouldn't relocate the Rays because their attendance is low; it's because they play in a ballpark that was obsolete the second it opened...in 1990.

 

The Marlins might not remain in Miami forever, but they have at least two or three decades before anything like that is considered. The attendance situation is dire right now, sure, but I wouldn't say the future is eternally hopeless. It will take several years for Jeter to rebuild trust, but it's far from impossible. He made some unpopular moves and some other ill advised moves that reek of Loria incompetence, but there's some good mixed in there too in terms of their drafted prospects and trade hauls.

 

The Marlins will always face some huge obstacles that other teams don't (most notably transplants from NYC and elsewhere), but you are wasting your breath if you think MLB will consider making any bold decisions regarding baseball in Miami, at least in the near future.

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7 minutes ago, QueenCitySwarm said:

Wow, baseball in Florida has looked awful for the past few years. It's not even like we can place it on the teams themselves being bad: the Marlins have two World Series titles (in like 25 years), and the Rays also made it the Fall Classic. The problem is, no one in the region seems to care. The Rays have been decent to pretty good for the past few years, but they're still setting record lows for attendance. That's pathetic. The Trop is obviously in an awful location, but I have to argue that the announcement of this split relocation has permanently killed any chance of this team staying in Tampa Bay forever. Whatever little goodwill the tiny fanbase has for the Rays is now gone. Even less people will show up, even if the partial move doesn't go through. As less people show up, the team will get more desperate for any kind of move, and Montreal may bend over backwards for a new stadium, and the Rays (and the MLB) leave the Tampa Bay area for good. It's a shame for the 10,000 (at most) people in the area that seem to care, but the market just is not right for the Majors.

Of coursed I'm biased, but I think the Rays fans have more to be ashamed of than Marlins fans right now when it comes to attendance. I understand the ballpark location argument (but I'd argue that Marlins Park is poorly located too), but at least the Rays have had competent ownership, no history of soul crushing firesales (despite still losing franchise players like Price and Longoria), and are a competitive team on the field. If the Marlins were playing so well that they were first in their division up until several days ago, their attendance figures would most definitely be better than what the Rays are pulling so far this season, although not necessarily sell outs by any stretch.

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I agree the Marlins 2 World Series proved that when their good the fans come out, a bad stretch shouldn’t be enough to ship them off to somewhere else, unless it gets especially long, I’m talking 15-20 years of this kinda attendance 

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From a Reel Line Mint standpoint, I wouldn't mind the Marlins moving to the AL and elb being in the NL East.  Having BOS and NYY on the schedule on a regular basis might help Miami (though it didn't help TB), and MTL belongs in the NL East (and it'd split up TOR and MTL again... though I would understand if people thought they should be together and have a regular rivalry.)

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1 hour ago, Magic Dynasty said:

So baseball fans in Florida who want to support major league teams from their area can get screwed?

 

Those fans are no more screwed than baseball fans in Buffalo or Charlotte or anywhere else that doesn't have a Major League team are "screwed". Having a major league team in your city is not a constitutional right, and not having one is not an injustice .

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

“Florida is for spring training” is just narrow-minded.

 

It hasn’t worked, but it could have wor ked in Miami (which is fairly far away from Spring Training land in Florida) given better ownership and no fire sales after winning championships.

 

I strongly doubt that it could have worked under any  circumstances. Saying that Florida is for spring training is perfectly sound because the majority of baseball fans in Florida support Northeastern teams. That will probably change eventually. And when it does, that's when Florida cities will be legitimate places for Major League teams.

 

Also, Miami is not far from spring training land. The Orioles trained in Miami for decades; and the Dodgers played plenty of games there even while their main base was in Vero Beach. And, of course, the Yankees were in Fort Lauderdale for a very long time. 

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23 minutes ago, Marlins93 said:

Of coursed I'm biased, but I think the Rays fans have more to be ashamed of than Marlins fans right now when it comes to attendance. I understand the ballpark location argument (but I'd argue that Marlins Park is poorly located too), but at least the Rays have had competent ownership, no history of soul crushing firesales (despite still losing franchise players like Price and Longoria), and are a competitive team on the field. If the Marlins were playing so well that they were first in their division up until several days ago, their attendance figures would most definitely be better than what the Rays are pulling so far this season, although not necessarily sell outs by any stretch.

For certain, but no matter the reason, attendance woes are still attendance woes. I'm sure if the Marlins were consistently better we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it's still possible that baseball in Miami has been contaminated like Tampa Bay. Incompetent ownership and fire sales aplenty has harmed the goodwill between fans and the team, and even if a better owner took over, that relationship may be permanently damaged. Moving the team to a new fanbase will not only change the suitors for the team (I'm sure people would rather own the Miami franchise than the Charlotte one), but it wipes the slate clean for the team to build trust between it and the fans. The Marlins have done really nothing to reward long-time fans, even with two World Series wins, since right after they win they just burn it to the ground. Even if it's the owners' fault, the goodwill may be gone. It's like a nuclear explosion: one mistake can make the soil infertile for years to come.

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Except Miami is not full of transplants from the Northeast.

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16 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

Those fans are no more screwed than baseball fans in Buffalo or Charlotte or anywhere else that doesn't have a Major League team are "screwed". Having a major league team in your city is not a constitutional right, and not having one is not an injustice .

 

 

Wow, telling somebody “You should lose your team!” isn’t a good look. It makes you look like a dick. Did you say that to Giants and Mariners fans in the early-1990s? 

 

16 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

I strongly doubt that it could have worked under any  circumstances. Saying that Florida is for spring training is perfectly sound because the majority of baseball fans in Florida support Northeastern teams. That will probably change eventually. And when it does, that's when Florida cities will be legitimate places for Major League teams.

 

It changed in that direction once a few generations of “native” Floridians occurred. It might not have in Tampa, but I’m sure it has in Miami (people from Miami, let me know). Would you use that as a defense for why Florida shouldn’t have basketball teams?

 

16 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Also, Miami is not far from spring training land. The Orioles trained in Miami for decades; and the Dodgers played plenty of games there even while their main base was in Vero Beach. And, of course, the Yankees were in Fort Lauderdale for a very long time. 

 

I didn’t know that. Thanks for the history!

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1 hour ago, insert name said:

If they're gonna move the Rays to Montreal then I request the (Ex)Rays and Nationals to swap leagues to have DC back in the AL and Montreal back in the NL. Order will then be restored.

 

It only makes sense. 

 

I’m not looking at a map at the moment, but I bet that MLB would invoke an Astros-in-the-AL situation* for the Montreal Expos v2.0, keeping them within spitting distance of Toronto.

 

(*IIRC the switch was made, at least in part, to help cut travel costs for the Rangers and the rest of the AL West when they come into the state of Texas.)

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2 hours ago, mania said:

Well that was a fun few hours.

 

 

My next question is what does it take to discontinue the use agreement?

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Having BOS and NYY on the schedule on a regular basis might help Miami (though it didn't help TB), and MTL belongs in the NL East (and it'd split up TOR and MTL again... though I would understand if people thought they should be together and have a regular rivalry.)

As you say, Toronto and Montreal playing 18 games a year against each other in the AL East would be pretty fun though... and if they met in a playoff series forget about it...

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2 hours ago, insert name said:

If they're gonna move the Rays to Montreal then I request the (Ex)Rays and Nationals to swap leagues to have DC back in the AL and Montreal back in the NL. Order will then be restored.

 

While it would be neat to see the O's and Nats in the same division, I don't want both teams in the Baltimore/Washington area being New York or Boston's bitch for most of the time.

 

Also, I do like the idea of teams in the same city being in separate leagues (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles). It would be sweet if they where both in the World Series against each other like in 2000.

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55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Wow, telling somebody “You should lose your team!” isn’t a good look. It makes you look like a dick.

 

I'm really more saying "you should have had your team in the first place".

 

Anyway, calls to move the (Devil) Rays have been happening since soon after the team got there.  And the Marlins were talked about as candidates for contraction.

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Did you say that to Giants and Mariners fans in the early-1990s? 

 

No way.

 

The Giants moving out of San Francisco would have been a tragedy; and their moving from a city as great as San Francisco to Tampa Bay would have been a double insult. Through my study of baseball history, I developed an emotional attachment to this team that had originated in my city; and, as the 1992 season drew to an close, I was just sick over the fact that this historic team's move away from its longtime home was considered inevitable.

 

And I also did not want to see the Mariners leave Seattle. When the Yankees lost to the Mariners in the first Division Series in 1995, I was not sad; this contrasted strongly with my misery after their losses in the World Series in 1976 and 1981, and in the League Championship Series in 1980. In 1995 I was not sad mainly because the Yankees, not having come in first in their division that year, did not really belong in the playoffs. (This distaste for the wild card presaged my disgust with interleague play, and my retirement as an active fan after 1996.)

 

But another important reason that I was not sad was that it looked like this Mariners victory could keep the tean in Seattle.

 

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:
Quote

the majority of baseball fans in Florida support Northeastern teams. That will probably change eventually. And when it does, that's when Florida cities will be legitimate places for Major League teams.

 

It changed in that direction once a few generations of “native” Floridians occurred. It might not have in Tampa, but I’m sure it has in Miami (people from Miami, let me know). 

 

So you think that the Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami? Earlier, Gothamite said that the Rays are the third most popular Major Lague team in Tampa. Likewise, the Marlins are, at best, the second most popular Major League team in Miami, and quite possibly the third.

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Would you use that as a defense for why Florida shouldn’t have basketball teams?

 

Certainly not. The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:
Quote

Also, Miami is not far from spring training land. The Orioles trained in Miami for decades; and the Dodgers played plenty of games there even while their main base was in Vero Beach. And, of course, the Yankees were in Fort Lauderdale for a very long time. 

 

I didn’t know that. Thanks for the history!

 

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

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9 minutes ago, BellaSpurs said:

@SFGiants58

will this appear on your defunct series as a failed relocation? Lol

 

ZwCdz5z.gif?noredirect

 

Challenge accepted! It'll be a bit more tongue-in-cheek, if you catch my drift. ;) 

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I like the idea that Florida can't have MLB teams because of spring training because it's such a weird argument that ignores all of the actual reasons for the teams to not be there. I'm also stealing this argument for why Arkansas doesn't have Major League Baseball since Hot Springs used to host spring training and ignoring all of the actual reasons.

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It was pretty much this 

after the thwarted Giants relocation:

 

Vince Naimoli: I'm going to sue MLB

MLB: Here's a damn expansion team

Vince: I'm no longer going to sue MLB

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I know it sucks to lose your favorite player.  But fans of all teams lose their favorite players all the time, and they don’t get two world championships out of it.  Only, what, four other teams have been able to repeat in the years since?

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