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The Montreal-Tampa Rays?

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25 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

I'm really more saying "you should have had your team in the first place".

 

Anyway, calls to move the (Devil) Rays have been happening since soon after the team got there.  And the Marlins were talked about as candidates for contraction.

 

 

 

No way.

 

The Giants moving out of San Francisco would have been a tragedy; and their moving from a city as great as San Francisco to Tampa Bay would have been a double insult. Through my study of baseball history, I developed an emotional attachment to this team that had originated in my city; and, as the 1992 season drew to an close, I was just sick over the fact that this historic team's move away from its longtime home was considered inevitable.

 

And I also did not want to see the Mariners leave Seattle. When the Yankees lost to the Mariners in the first Division Series in 1995, I was not sad; this contrasted strongly with my misery after their losses in the World Series in 1976 and 1981, and in the League Championship Series in 1980. In 1995 I was not sad mainly because the Yankees, not having come in first in their division that year, did not really belong in the playoffs. (This distaste for the wild card presaged my disgust with interleague play, and my retirement as an active fan after 1996.)

 

But another important reason that I was not sad was that it looked like this Mariners victory could keep the tean in Seattle.

 

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

 

So you think that the Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami? Earlier, Gothamite said that the Rays are the third most popular Major Lague team in Tampa. Likewise, the Marlins are, at best, the second most popular Major League team in Miami, and quite possibly the third.

 

 

 

Certainly not. The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

 

 

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

 

The Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami. Despite 16 years of horrible mismanagement the Marlins fans would still outdraw Yankees fans like they did in the 2003 World Series. The gap was narrowed in that time, but nothing unites Miamians more than rooting against a team from New York. This is similar with the Heat and Dolphins. Even the Cuban exiles that can remember watching the Yankees in the 40s and 50s in black and white put the Marlins before the Yankees. The rules that govern the rest of Florida do not apply in Miami. Anyone who has spent a decent enough time here fully understands.

 

This map from 2014 shows this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#7,26.015,-81.360

 

You can continue to repeat your line about Northeasterners in Florida, but it ignores  facts: 1) 53% of Miami-Dade was not even born in this country and 2) That Miami is a full generation removed from spring training baseball.

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Honestly the Florida experiment should have ended a while ago. Miami and Tampa are better off in the Florida State League. Lets get baseball back to Montreal and to maybe Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte or Nashville.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

I'm really more saying "you should have had your team in the first place".

 

Anyway, calls to move the (Devil) Rays have been happening since soon after the team got there.  And the Marlins were talked about as candidates for contraction.

 

 

While both may be true, you're still ignoring the extenuating circumstances behind each of those calls. Better ownership would have made the difference for Miami at least. Also, saying to a fan of a team that their team shouldn't exist is just insensitive. Would you say that to their face?

 

Quote

No way.

 

The Giants moving out of San Francisco would have been a tragedy; and their moving from a city as great as San Francisco to Tampa Bay would have been a double insult. Through my study of baseball history, I developed an emotional attachment to this team that had originated in my city; and, as the 1992 season drew to an close, I was just sick over the fact that this historic team's move away from its longtime home was considered inevitable.

 

You would be surprised at how similar the situations are between the current Rays and the pre-1993 Giants. "Candlescat" Park was the open-air equivalent of The Trop, as it was an inhospitable place to play baseball and arguably to blame for much of the team's financial woes during the 1960s-'90s. The team only cracked the two million mark for attendance once (1989) and drew under one million in eleven seasons. It was officially declared "unsuitable for baseball" at one point, prompting several failed referendums for a mostly taxpayer-funded stadium that predictably failed. Media of the time tried to argue that these referendums were a sign that the city didn't want the team. I saw that a lot in my research, including one of the most asinine quotes I've ever encountered.

 

Quote

Willie Mays should have finished his career where it started, in the Polo Grounds. San Francisco had always been an American League town. Its minor-league teams were affiliated with the AL, and its greatest hero, Joe DiMaggio, had played there as well.

 

Mays never was as happy in San Francisco as he was in New York.

 

-Blaine Newnham of The Seattle Times, "If Move OK’d, It’s a Giant Mistake," August 11, 1992

 

The truth was, of course, that Bay Area taxpayers don't like paying the majority of the stadium bill. 

 

Quote

And I also did not want to see the Mariners leave Seattle. When the Yankees lost to the Mariners in the first Division Series in 1995, I was not sad; this contrasted strongly with my misery after their losses in the World Series in 1976 and 1981, and in the League Championship Series in 1980. In 1995 I was not sad mainly because the Yankees, not having come in first in their division that year, did not really belong in the playoffs. (This distaste for the wild card presaged my disgust with interleague play, and my retirement as an active fan after 1996.)

 

But another important reason that I was not sad was that it looked like this Mariners victory could keep the tean in Seattle.

 

I fail to see how events in 1995 are germane to the Mariners almost moving to Tampa Bay in 1992. Similarly to the Rays, they were born out of a lawsuit. They had an even worse time of it than the Rays, not achieving a winning season until 14 years into their existence. The Mariners also had a depressing dome for a venue, with piss-poor attendance and calls to move them. I'd argue that the situation is fairly similar to the Rays.

 

The victory certainly helped get a stadium done, but the purchase of the team by Nintendo of America pretty much made their commitment to Seattle a done deal.

 

Quote

 

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

So, are we just going to ignore the long history of minor league baseball in the area?

 

The Tampa Smokers, Tampa Tarpons, and St. Petersburg Saints (and Cardinals) would beg to differ. Just because the minor league didn't rise to the status of the old PCL doesn't disqualify them from mattering.

 

Quote

 

So you think that the Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami? Earlier, Gothamite said that the Rays are the third most popular Major Lague team in Tampa. Likewise, the Marlins are, at best, the second most popular Major League team in Miami, and quite possibly the third.

 

I'm not sure, but there's enough of a market for them. Given better ownership and marketing, they could be number one. However, Huizenga and Loria intervened to stop that.

 

Quote

Certainly not. The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

But are they? The argument about transplants still following their old teams applies here as well. Somehow the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat are thriving teams, even if the locals are from New York or Boston. 

 

Quote

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

 

Actually, I didn't know that Spring Training homes were that close to Miami. Also, see @marlinfan's post for a correction.

 

26 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

I know it sucks to lose your favorite player.  But fans of all teams lose their favorite players all the time, and they don’t get two world championships out of it.  Only, what, four other teams have been able to repeat in the years since?

 

You're underselling how devastating those fire sales were for fan engagement. When over three-quarters of the championship roster doesn't return and it's clear that the team won't commit to its successful lineup, you've got problems.

Edited by SFGiants58
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And yet after the first fire sale they won a second world championship.  Really finding it hard to be too sympathetic about that one. 

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27 minutes ago, marlinfan said:

The Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami.

 

Interestingly enough, after the Rays had won the AL pennant they still weren’t more popular than the Yankees in the Tampa Bay area.  Nor were they more popular than the Red Sox; one of the best teams in baseball was the third-favorite team among baseball fans in its own town.

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Was The Rays attendance even that much better during 08 when they made the World Series? Did they even sell out any of their home games? 

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3 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

And yet after the first fire sale they won a second world championship.  Really finding it hard to be too sympathetic about that one. 

 

Then they had another fire sale, followed by a stadium debacle, followed by two fire sales. The franchise's most relevant players wound up being traded for little in return and the best Cuban-American player (a guy Miami really could/should have marketed around) died in a cocaine-related boating accident. That second championship is a tiny bit obscure when the team has only posted only four winning seasons since, with the most recent one in 2009. Also, when most of those players wound up succeeding away from the confines of Marlins Park or Joe Robbie Stadium, it hurts even more. 

 

I get that it's more championships than several other teams, but the crap following it has made those two titles far less relevant. But now we're in Marlins talk, which distracts us from the Tampa Bay Litigation Preventers.

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42 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

I know it sucks to lose your favorite player.  But fans of all teams lose their favorite players all the time, and they don’t get two world championships out of it.  Only, what, four other teams have been able to repeat in the years since?

 

Exactly. I'll cherish the 3 Giants titles  forever. 

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13 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Interestingly enough, after the Rays had won the AL pennant they still weren’t more popular than the Yankees in the Tampa Bay area.  Nor were they more popular than the Red Sox; one of the best teams in baseball was the third-favorite team among baseball fans in its own town.

 

I won’t comment on where the Rays are in the pecking order since I haven’t been in Tampa long enough to get a feel for it, but the link above shows the Rays being the favorite baseball team. 

 

I think MLB failed the Rays but not doing more to push the Yankees out of the Tampa area (to Orlando?) to allow the Rays to establish themselves.

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18 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

And yet after the first fire sale they won a second world championship.  Really finding it hard to be too sympathetic about that one. 

 

3 years after winning the championship they were also visiting Las Vegas, Portland, San Antonio, and Oklahoma City for new ballparks.

 

@SFGiants58 summed it up pretty well. He forgot David Samson bragging at a banquet how he got taxpayers to fund the majority of the stadium AND later in an inebriated state yelling “$1.2 BILLION!” when he was booed by fans at another event after the sale.

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9 minutes ago, Wings said:

 

Exactly. I'll cherish the 3 Giants titles  forever. 

 

Same here! I'll always cherish them and I hope that every fanbase gets to experience that feeling at least a few times, no matter how many times people try to dismiss the titles as "flukes" or "undeserving." Bleep that. 

 

Of course, the Giants didn't immediately sell off all of their best players following the titles (twice!) or try to claim losses despite being in the black. It's easier to maintain interest when the championship roster keeps returning, for better or for worse. 

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2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Same here! I'll always cherish them and I hope that every fanbase gets to experience that feeling at least a few times, no matter how many times people try to dismiss the titles as "flukes" or "undeserving." Bleep that. 

 

Of course, the Giants didn't immediately sell off all of their best players following the titles (twice!) or try to claim losses despite being in the black. It's easier to maintain interest when the championship roster keeps returning, for better or for worse. 

 

They just got old instead 😁

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2003 was my first real experience as a fan. I remember 1997 but I was too young to understand. I can still remember most of the memorable games in 2003. It’s burned into me and I relive it everytime I go to the ballpark or they play against a specific opponent. They are some of the fondest memories I have as a teenager and it’s why I still hope that the Marlins can be relevant again. 

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1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:
Quote

The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

But are they? The argument about transplants still following their old teams applies here as well. Somehow the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat are thriving teams, even if the locals are from New York or Boston. 

 

The difference can be attributed partly to the phenomenon of spring training, and partly to a set of intangible factors that no one can define.

 

When we look at yet another sport, we find yet another set of norms. In football, there is no love in Florida for New York or the Northeast at all; and the Jets have been the Dolphins' biggest rivals since the Dolphins' creation. On the college side, Florida is one of the sport's major capitals, while New York City is one of its backwaters. Every sport is different.

 

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:
Quote

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

 

Actually, I didn't know that Spring Training homes were that close to Miami.

 

Oops!

 

There is so much snark and sarcasm around — which, generally speaking, is not a bad thing because this keeps things lively and enjoyable. But the prevalence of sarcasm can sometimes make it difficult to identify a genuine comment. And that is the mistake I made here.

 

So I must apologise for the inapproprately nasty tone that I took in my reply to that comment of yours. 

 

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

Also, see @marlinfan's post for a correction.

 

Right. I will defer to his perceptions. I can understand the idea that what is true generally about Florida does not apply to Miami. 

 

But, insofar as Tampa and the Rays are concerned, I will stand by my previous comments.

 

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:
Quote

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

So, are we just going to ignore the long history of minor league baseball in the area?

 

The Tampa Smokers, Tampa Tarpons, and St. Petersburg Saints (and Cardinals) would beg to differ. Just because the minor league didn't rise to the status of the old PCL doesn't disqualify them from mattering.

 

I'm not ignoring that history. But I specified "high-level" baseball for a reason.

 

Every town had minor league baseball; but the top cities in the PCL were pretty much equivalent in stature as metropolitan areas to the cities in the American and National Leagues. Just as important, the calibre of play in the PCL was pretty close to that of the AL and NL, because the PCL teams paid competitive salaries.

 

So, while I wouldn't want to say that the history of minor league baseball in Tampa doesn't matter, in this discussion the level really is a key factor. San Francisco and Seattle were "major league" baseball cities before they were Major League Baseball cities; and the Tampa Bay area is arguably still not a "major league" baseball city despite being a Major League Baseball city.

 

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

Also, saying to a fan of a team that their team shouldn't exist is just insensitive. Would you say that to their face?

 

I believe I would.

 

I am definitely not any kind of internet tough guy; I sign everything that I write on any website or message board with my real name, and I stand behind what I have written (while of course being willing to admit mistakes). 

 

I do not dismiss the sadness involved in losing a team. I recently wrote on this website about the unpleasant feeling of losing my connection to the Nets, whom I had followed since the Dr. J days. Ironically, this comes as a result of their having moving into my city; but, because the team does not take the name of my city and because it ignores the New York Nets and New Jersey Nets history to which I have an emotional connection, it is no longer my team. My team has gone away.

 

I should say that basketball was never my favourite sport; and, while I liked the Nets since I was a kid of 8 or 9, they were never a core part of my identity. However, I do indeed appreciate that, when a fan who loses a team that he or she really loves, then this can be quite a blow.

 

Still, in a conversation consisting of serious analysis (as opposed to one made up of banter and trash talk), I would be willing to say to a Rays fan that, in my opinion, the awarding of the team was a mistake, for the cultural and historical reasons that I have expressed in this thread.

 

I would say this not in order to mock or to be hurtful, but only in the spirit of honest debate.

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7 hours ago, bosrs1 said:

 

Diamondback issues are completely fabricated. The BoB is still a great modern park with all the modern bull :censored:. 

 

Angels aren't leaving LA so they don’t have an issue so much as a desire for a new ballpark.

 

In fairness to the Angel's their ballpark is the 4th or 5th oldest in the league. Just cause someone gets a boob job and some lipo in their 50's , doesn't make them younger. 

 

They've had a well know rat problem at the stadium. And while enjoy going to games there. I can see why they really could use a new stadium. A lot of bad awkward sightlines from it being a multipurpose previously in life.

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6 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Doesn't that stadium host a college football all star game?  The East-West Shrine Bowl I think?

Not for long. I think its moving again.

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19 hours ago, ~Bear said:

Is there anyway the Rays could relocate before 2027? The news of splitting cities can't help attendance. People aren't going to show up any more than the abysmal numbers they are now if they think the team's in lame-duck mode. 

 

Well, if the writing is on the wall, they could probably work out some deal where the team would pay a "cancellation" fee of some sort to get out of the agreement.

 

19 hours ago, Marlins93 said:

Of coursed I'm biased, but I think the Rays fans have more to be ashamed of than Marlins fans right now when it comes to attendance. I understand the ballpark location argument (but I'd argue that Marlins Park is poorly located too), but at least the Rays have had competent ownership, no history of soul crushing firesales (despite still losing franchise players like Price and Longoria), and are a competitive team on the field. If the Marlins were playing so well that they were first in their division up until several days ago, their attendance figures would most definitely be better than what the Rays are pulling so far this season, although not necessarily sell outs by any stretch.

 

I agree.  South Florida will show up for a winning team.

I also agree Marlins Park is in a bad location - terrible highway in/out access, in a neighborhood with small streets, nothing around but small homes (no "ballpark village" opportunity), not downtown, etc - but the property was there so that's where it went.

 

18 hours ago, QueenCitySwarm said:

For certain, but no matter the reason, attendance woes are still attendance woes. I'm sure if the Marlins were consistently better we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it's still possible that baseball in Miami has been contaminated like Tampa Bay. Incompetent ownership and fire sales aplenty has harmed the goodwill between fans and the team, and even if a better owner took over, that relationship may be permanently damaged. Moving the team to a new fanbase will not only change the suitors for the team (I'm sure people would rather own the Miami franchise than the Charlotte one), but it wipes the slate clean for the team to build trust between it and the fans. The Marlins have done really nothing to reward long-time fans, even with two World Series wins, since right after they win they just burn it to the ground. Even if it's the owners' fault, the goodwill may be gone. It's like a nuclear explosion: one mistake can make the soil infertile for years to come.

 

I think the Marlins will be ok long term; it'll take years of being competently run without blowing the team up every few years, and obviously success/winning, but I think the market will warm up to them should it those things happen.  They've just been raked through the coals every time the start to have a reason to support the team, so people are leery to support them.

 

13 hours ago, 63Bulldogs63 said:

 

In fairness to the Angel's their ballpark is the 4th or 5th oldest in the league. Just cause someone gets a boob job and some lipo in their 50's , doesn't make them younger. 

 

They've had a well know rat problem at the stadium. And while enjoy going to games there. I can see why they really could use a new stadium. A lot of bad awkward sightlines from it being a multipurpose previously in life.

 

They could likely use a new one, but it's a different situation than Tampa.

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19 hours ago, Brian in Boston said:


Well, in any event. Las Vegas won't be the first city to land franchises in the leagues we now regard as major professional in rapid-fire succession. After all, if you're only going to regard American Football League franchises as joining the ranks of top-tier pro sports when the full AFL merger with the NFL took place, then...

Buffalo Bills / NFL / 1970
Buffalo Braves / NBA / 1970
Buffalo Sabres / NHL / 1970

BOOM!!! Three franchises in three of the so-called "Big Four" North American pro sports leagues in one fell swoop.

Similarly... 

San Diego Rockets / NBA / 1967
San Diego Padres / MLB / 1969
San Diego Chargers / NFL / 1970
(That's three years to land three franchises in the "Big Four".)

Kansas City Royals / MLB / 1969
Kansas City Chiefs / NFL / 1970
Kansas City-Omaha Kings / NBA / 1972
Kansas City Scouts / NHL / 1974
(Five years to land teams in all of the "Big Four" leagues.)

Denver Broncos / NFL / 1970
Denver Nuggets / NBA / 1976
Colorado Rockies / NHL / 1976
(Six years to land three teams amongst the "Big Four".) 






  

 

The difference being that that era in major league sports saw a lot more expansion to legit respond to growing demand for more teams in more places.

 

Although for all 4 examples it also bears repeating that some of the teams didn't take.  Braves bailed on Buffalo, Rockets bailed on San Diego, Kings AND Scouts bailed on KC, Rockies (who were the former Scouts!) bailed on Denver.

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Miami was just the Dolphins for over 20 years until the Heat arrived in 1988 and then the Marlins & Panthers in 1993. 

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15 hours ago, AustinFomBoston said:

Was The Rays attendance even that much better during 08 when they made the World Series? Did they even sell out any of their home games? 

 

A little bit, not much.  Nor did they get a significant attendance boost the year after, which often happens.

 

The attendance was maybe a little less bad during their amazing run, but it sure as hell didn't even begin to approach "good".

 

Year

No of Home Games

Total Attendance

Average Attendance

Rank

2007

81

1,387,603

17,130

29 out of 30

2008

80

1,780,791

22,259

26 out of 30

2009

81

1,874,962

23,147

23 out of 30

 

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