Ark

Teams that ignore their 90s identity

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12 hours ago, Morgo said:

But why it can't be used on an alternate is beyond comprehension. 

I think it would make a fine alternate logo and wouldn’t object if it was used as such. 

The question is “does it need to be used as such?” and I would say “no.” 

 

Again, not everything from the 90s needs to be thrown back to. 

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I'd like for the Brewers to briefly revisit the 1997-99 set, as it was the best version of the "Germanic" identity.

 

1120_MAIN.jpg 94065a_lg.jpeg

The 1994-96 set simply isn't good enough.

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9 minutes ago, Ark said:

 

This is just false. The same events would have transpired whether they changed uniforms or not. What you're talking about is a coincidence.

 

And now your argument is that it's too "corporate", whatever that means. That is probably worse than saying it's a pigeon because it has no meaning. Basically you're implying that any logo that isn't cartoony can be considered "corporate". Well a lot of companies have cartoony mascots. Seems to me that the Skating Penguin would fit right in with Ronald McDonald, Grimace, and the Hamburglar. I guess that means it has to go because it's too corporate!

 

 

I would rather have the Cartoony SKATING PENGUIN than the Realistic Corporate looking pos thing

 

check out Andrew Conti’s Book BREAKAWAY: it chronicles the Events Leading up to and after Lemieux taking Ownership of the Franchise 

 

then owner howard ass hat baldwin has ADMITTED to wanting to CHANGE the Logo / Uniform and even Team Name! The NEW LOGO was NOTHING MORE than a Money Grab! Maybe if he hadn’t had such a hard on for WANTING TO change the logo, his mindset for handling Everything Else might have been different 

 

courtesy of pittsburghhockey.net (apologies if I’m not allowed to provide a link to another site)

 

Hanging up the Skates. Gary Adams, an artist with Vance, Wright & Adams Design Group, came up with the “corporate-style” logo that was used on the shoulder patches until the start of the 2007-08 season. Adam’s said new Penguins’ owner Howard Baldwin wanted something more “marketable” and even considered changing the name back to the Hornets.” “Baldwin said: ‘They’re gonna kill me for changing the logo, why not the name?’ ” recalled Adams. “We even looked at replacing gold with the Vegas Gold color scheme.” The design was met with skepticism and superstition. Loyal fans thought the logo change was a Baldwin gimimick simply to generate money in jersey sales. Others, including Gessner, thought the logo change would ruin the Pens’ mojo. “They just won the Stanley Cup two years in a row and they wanted to change the logo?” recalled Gessner. “I was stunned and saddened. 

 

Wait did this article Refer to the logo as 

“corporate-style”?????

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What is the article's source for calling it quote "corporate-style"?

 

Also, the logo is just a penguin + triangle combination. It's a really simple logo. If that logo is "corporate", what non-cartoony sports logo isn't? And that right there shows that calling it "corporate" is meaningless.

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10 minutes ago, Ark said:

What is the article's source for calling it quote "corporate-style"?

 

Also, the logo is just a penguin + triangle combination. It's a really simple logo. If that logo is "corporate", what non-cartoony sports logo isn't? And that right there shows that calling it "corporate" is meaningless.

You’re at the Pittsburgh Zoo and Aquarium, standing at the door to the Penguin Exhibt

 

which logo BEST REPRESENTS the Penguin Exhibit you’re about to Enter

 

- Skating Penguin holding a Hockey Stick?

OR

- Corporate (Pittsburgh Zoo is a Corporate Business, they make money from people coming to visit the animals) Style Triangular penguin? 

 

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The skating penguin is far more fun as a logo than the robo-penguin. 

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8 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

The skating penguin is far more fun as a logo than the robo-penguin. 

Thank You!  When I look at the Skating Penguin, I see a Sports Logo! When I look at the Robo / Realistic penguin, I see a CORPORATION 

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1 hour ago, Fitzy0220 said:

Thank You!  When I look at the Skating Penguin, I see a Sports Logo! When I look at the Robo / Realistic penguin, I see a CORPORATION 

I mean, ultimately what is any sports franchise but a corporation? 😛 Just because we get attached to a team doesn't make them any less of a corporation. These franchises exist, primarily, to make money, not primarily to please people.

 

And I can turn the argument against you; when look at the Skating Penguin, I see a goofy cartoon penguin with big angry eyebrows that's skating around and holding a hockey stick with gloves, which is really childish in hindsight. When I look at the Robopen, I see a clean and stylish sports logo. People decry the Mighty Ducks logo for being silly and dumb, but honestly, when was Pittsburgh's skating penguin logo any better? It's grandfathered in, but that doesn't make it great.

 

Besides, 90's nostalgia is in. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pens roll out a Robopen third or something sooner rather then later, it makes too much sense from a money perspective. The team is doing excellently, there's no real fear anymore.

 

1 hour ago, Ice_Cap said:

The skating penguin is far more fun as a logo than the robo-penguin. 

Maybe, but ultimately I feel that it comes off almost as a relic at this point; the linework is dated pretty badly, I feel, and could desparately use an update. But even then, I don't know if I'd prefer it over the Robopen, because it'd still probably retain that same goofy and childish look that I think drags it down. A sports team should look slick and elegant, and I don't think the Skating Penguin quite cuts the mustard anymore without updates.

 

That's the same reason I never got the hate on the Mighty Ducks logo; that was an incredibly slick logo and identity that the current look just...doesn't have. It was a unique color combo that looked gorgeous, the jerseys were sick. It's really not much different then Pittsburgh's logo, in all honesty; it's a thing with hockey stick(s) on a triangle.

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I'd love for double blue to return as a third. The Winter Classic sweaters are a particular favorite of mine:

 

WinterClassic08.jpgcheap-custom-sidney-crosby-pittsburgh-penguins.jpg

 

Just put the skating penguin with the scarf on the powder jersey and you'd be set! Robo-Pen in double blue would also work for me.

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7 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Robo-Pen in double blue would also work for me.

That'd be a sick third jersey, IMO. It'd combine multiple eras of Penguins history on a jersey, and would work amazingly as an anniversary jersey. I just want the team to do more then just Skating Penguin with occasional blue throwbacks.  

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8 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

Maybe

Yes :P

 

8 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

but ultimately I feel that it comes off almost as a relic at this point; the linework is dated pretty badly, I feel, and could desparately use an update.

You're not going to make any headway with me with that argument. I wholeheartedly believe this needs to be the Miami Dolphins' primary logo, dated design and linework included. Why? Sometimes kitsch is good. Sometimes something that was clearly hand drawn has a charm something rendered on a computer will never have.

I, for one, find the Penguins' skating penguin charming. I'm not sure I want an "update" that will give him unneeded shading or an angry 90s-style snarl.

 

10 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

don't know if I'd prefer it over the Robopen, because it'd still probably retain that same goofy and childish look that I think drags it down. A sports team should look slick and elegant, and I don't think the Skating Penguin quite cuts the mustard anymore without updates.

I just don't agree, sorry.

I think there is room within the wide world of sports for a variety of identity types. And the whimsy we see with the Penguins' skating penguin logo is severely underrepresented. The robo-penguin isn't bad, but it's just so bland. At best it would work as a shoulder patch, but I don't think the Penguins are under any obligation to do even that. It's a look at that represents the slump between two multiple championship eras.

 

12 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

That's the same reason I never got the hate on the Mighty Ducks logo; that was an incredibly slick logo and identity that the current look just...doesn't have. It was a unique color combo that looked gorgeous, the jerseys were sick. It's really not much different then Pittsburgh's logo, in all honesty; it's a thing with hockey stick(s) on a triangle.

Wait...so the Mighty Ducks' logo is great but the skating penguin is childish....and both the Mighty Ducks' logo and the skating penguin are pretty much the same thing anyway but one is good and the other isn't? You seem confused.

 

Look dude. Just admit you like what you like and dislike what you dislike. That's much easier than trying to dress up your opinions as something more than that.

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4 hours ago, Ark said:

This is just false. The same events would have transpired whether they changed uniforms or not. What you're talking about is a coincidence.

Sure, but it doesn't undo the mental association fans have of the robo-penguin and disappointing hockey/financial hardships. As I explained in this post you ignored? Humans are hardwired to recognize patterns and associate separate senses with each other. Therefore it's not surprising that people equate a team's identity with the team's performance.

The only way to get around that is to just wear an identity for so long that it becomes "the" identity for your franchise, one so ingrained no one would think of changing it. Like the Yankees or Canadiens. Even then, you'd need to win a lot in it. The Chicago/St. Louis/Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals had the same identity for decades, close to a century actually, and still ditched it without much fuss because they were routinely terrible.

 

tl;dr? It's human nature to associate team identities with team performance.

No Pistons fan wants to remember the teal-clad Grant Hill Pistons being terrible and no Penguins fan wants to be reminded of an era that represents Lemieux retiring (and then unretiring) and Jagr heading off to play for a divisional rival.

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20 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I, for one, find the Penguins' skating penguin charming. I'm not sure I want an "update" that will give him unneeded shading or an angry 90s-style snarl.

Frankly, I'd hate that, too. I might personally prefer the Robopen, but I think the Skating Penguin could absolutely be a great logo for the Pens; I just think it needs to be revised and made a bit cleaner-looking overall. Something that looks like this is what I want, really, solely in terms of linework.

 

Quote

Wait...so the Mighty Ducks' logo is great but the skating penguin is childish....and both the Mighty Ducks' logo and the skating penguin are pretty much the same thing anyway but one is good and the other isn't? You seem confused.

 

Look dude. Just admit you like what you like and dislike what you dislike. That's much easier than trying to dress up your opinions as something more than that

I don't HATE the Skating Penguin at all, but it's a logo that could absolutely do with some cleaning up. It has a solid concept but is just a bit...old-looking. And not really in a timeless manner, like the Flyers, Leafs or Habs logo do, in my own opinion.

 

The Mighty Ducks logo is great because of how clean the lines are. The more dated linework of the current Skating Penguin makes it look more like, say, a junior team logo to me. I know the Robopen's never going to be the main logo (frankly, I'd love it back on a third), and I don't really want them to change too much about the Skating Penguin; just to make it's linework cleaner and less....dated-looking. Other teams that had dated logos have tweaked and modernized them (SJS, TML, BOS) in the same way I'd like Pittsburgh to do it; keep the core, but modernize it a bit.

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The Skating Penguin was a bit of a victim of an attempted update/very bad digital trace in the 1990s. Compare these renderings (modern recreation of 1970s design vs. 1990s/2000s digitization/slight tweak of original):

 

36ai6de8ef0svi6hiugcgpwjl.png6362_pittsburgh_penguins-primary-2017.png

Note how the newer version, while better with some line weights (such as the beak), a different head shape, and better eye rendering, has a lot of lost sharpness in the glove detail and the stick end. Heck, the more angular stick of the original is probably better for the purposes of the design. 

 

It doesn't need any serious replacing, but it could just use some tidying up. Much like how the Orioles tidied up their cartoon birds:

 

tenacross1.png

 

...or how @ren69 nailed the original Dolphins' logo:

 

LogoTemplate_VintageLogos_MiamiDolphins1.png

 

Just a little bit of tidying up goes a long way, or re-digitizing logos from the original art renderings/providing better traces. @andrewharrington once said that the Rangers' shield was several generations removed from the original art. This is something that teams, especially if they're looking to expand throwback gear or update their look, should consider.

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3 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

Frankly, I'd hate that, too. I might personally prefer the Robopen, but I think the Skating Penguin could absolutely be a great logo for the Pens; I just think it needs to be revised and made a bit cleaner-looking overall. Something that looks like this is what I want, really, solely in terms of linework.

I still think that loses something, but it's not bad at all. I could live with that.

 

7 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

linework

Again, I don't really hold this against a logo. Unless it's REALLY bad, like Pat the Patriot. Broadly though? I think hand drawn charm can work in a logo's favour. One of the reasons I prefer the old Dolphins logo is because its hand drawn nature calls to mind both a grungy look and something you'd see on Florida roadside attraction signage in the 60s/70s. It just works for the Dolphins in that regard.

Obviously that's not the same feeling one looks for in a Pittsburgh Penguins logo, but I think the cartoon mascot look works in its favour. It's not muddled to all hell like Pat the Patriot, or even the Dolphins logo I was defending.

 

10 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

Other teams that had dated logos have tweaked and modernized them (SJS, TML, BOS) in the same way I'd like Pittsburgh to do it; keep the core, but modernize it a bit.

I know I'm in the minority but I actually hate the Bruins' current iteration of the B. I preferred the last version, where the spokes fed into the B. The current one makes it seem like the B is separate.

 

Regardless, I get your point. Still? I don't know if the skating penguin needs a facelift that badly. With the old Leafs logos? You clearly had off-centred text to fix, and if you're fixing that, why not touch up a few other things? With the skating penguin? Even as-is he seems fine. Maybe the linework isn't strong in places, but so what? It's not that big of a deal.

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43 minutes ago, DastardlyRidleylash said:

That'd be a sick third jersey, IMO. It'd combine multiple eras of Penguins history on a jersey, and would work amazingly as an anniversary jersey. I just want the team to do more then just Skating Penguin with occasional blue throwbacks.  

Blue Throwbacks = 2 Crosby Injuries (David Steckl hit in 2011 and puck to the face in 2013)

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22 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

The Skating Penguin was a bit of a victim of an attempted update/very bad digital trace in the 1990s. Compare these renderings (modern recreation of 1970s design vs. 1990s/2000s digitization/slight tweak of original):

 

36ai6de8ef0svi6hiugcgpwjl.png6362_pittsburgh_penguins-primary-2017.png

Note how the newer version, while better with some line weights (such as the beak), a different head shape, and better eye rendering, has a lot of lost sharpness in the glove detail and the stick end. Heck, the more angular stick of the original is probably better for the purposes of the design. 

 

It doesn't need any serious replacing, but it could just use some tidying up. Much like how the Orioles tidied up their cartoon birds:

 

tenacross1.png

 

...or how @ren69 nailed the original Dolphins' logo:

 

LogoTemplate_VintageLogos_MiamiDolphins1.png

 

Just a little bit of tidying up goes a long way, or re-digitizing logos from the original art renderings/providing better traces. @andrewharrington once said that the Rangers' shield was several generations removed from the original art. This is something that teams, especially if they're looking to expand throwback gear or update their look, should consider.

If you took the Longer Scowled Beak and Eye and put it on the Cleaned up logo, it would look Awesome

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20 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I still think that loses something, but it's not bad at all. I could live with that.

 

I agree that specific logo loses a bit, but I was mainly using it as an example of how cleaning up the linework helps the logo's positive attributes shine more. As it is, I can't see the logo without immediately seeing how crude the linework is nowadays, especially compared to their sister franchise's incredibly clean linework for their primary logo. Philly's logo is so incredibly clean that I think updating it at all would be risking ruining it; Pittsburgh, in my opinion, needs to get to that point before I can feel like leaving their logo alone; and I don't believe they have quite yet.

 

Quote

I know I'm in the minority but I actually hate the Bruins' current iteration of the B. I preferred the last version, where the spokes fed into the B. The current one makes it seem like the B is separate.

Again, was more referring to the linework there; it's more defined then the previous versions. I'd like the lines to feed into the B, too, but it's an example of modernizing a classic logo without losing the core of what made said logo work.

 

Quote

Regardless, I get your point. Still? I don't know if the skating penguin needs a facelift that badly. With the old Leafs logos? You clearly had off-centred text to fix, and if you're fixing that, why not touch up a few other things? With the skating penguin? Even as-is he seems fine. Maybe the linework isn't strong in places, but so what? It's not that big of a deal.

Eh, I disagree that the brand should just be "fine". A brand should strive to look as clean and timeless as it can. It's why Boston, Detroit and Montréal haven't changed their core logos since the 40's and 50's; those logos are exceptionally clean and damn near perfection, IMO. Pittsburgh has the timeless part, but the linework is something that still needs to be improved.

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Regarding the "Pigeon" logo

 

This would remain unchanged until the 1992–93 season, when the team unveiled new uniforms and a new logo, made by Pittsburgh visual communications agency Vance Wright Adams. The logo featured a modern-looking, streamlined penguin.[40] Although the "Robo-Penguin" logo survived in various forms for 15 years, it received mixed responses from fans and was never as widely accepted as the "skating penguin" logo. Longtime KDKA anchor Bill Burns even went as far as calling the penguin in the logo "a pigeon."

After Mario Lemieux (a personal fan of the "skating penguin" logo) purchased the team from bankruptcy court in 1999, he announced plans to bring back the "skating penguin" logo. This occurred for the 2000–01 season, when the team revived the logo (albeit with a "Vegas gold" triangle instead of "Pittsburgh gold") on the chest of the team's new alternate jersey. In 2002–03, the logo became the primary logo,[41] and the "flying penguin" logo (also with a "Vegas gold" triangle instead of "Pittsburgh gold") was relegated to secondary status and only on the shoulders of the team's jerseys, until it was retired in 2007 when the team introduced their version of the Rbk Edge uniforms.[40]
 

On September 19, 2014, the Penguins released their new alternate uniforms for the 2014–15 season. The new black uniforms are throwbacks to the early part of Lemieux's playing career, emulating the uniforms worn by the Penguins' 1991 and 1992 Stanley Cup-winning teams. The new alternate uniform features "Pittsburgh gold," the particular shade of gold which had been retired when the Penguins switched to the metallic gold full-time in 2002.

After the 2016 season, the team returned to using the "Pittsburgh gold" jerseys as the primary uniforms. The "Vegas gold" jerseys were retired, in time for the 50th anniversary in 2017. The new home and away "Pittsburgh gold" jerseys were unveiled on June 24, 2016, to be first presented at the 2016 NHL Entry Draft.

 

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