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2019-2020 MLB Offseason Thread

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1 hour ago, Bucfan56 said:

So Mike Trout is this generation‚Äôs Barry Bonds, huh? ūüėā

That's honestly probably less surprising than this whole Astros cheating debacle. 

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4 hours ago, Marlins93 said:

I wonder what happens to Beltran's hall of fame chances now. In my view, he's done more damage to the integrity of the game than Bonds, Clemens, and Rose did. And I think that the steroids guys should be in; on the fence about Rose.

 

LOL Wut?  I'm not sure that stealing signs is anywhere near what those other guys did - especially Rose.  Regarding HOF, it's stupid that they're not in, but as far as damaging the integrity of the game, they're all scumbag.

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46 minutes ago, the admiral said:

 

Maybe Buzzfeed is covering someone feeding him buzzes.


giphy.gif

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8 hours ago, Digby said:

Oh my god, it is the most Mets thing in the world to fire a manager before he ever managed a game for them due to a scandal they weren't involved in.

 

Since the ongoing story was that Beltran had helped think up the scheme, I think concern about him doing it again would be high.

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5 hours ago, Davey said:

Anyone following the latest news regarding The Astros and, Altuve?

 

He might want to consider being safely on the disabled list when they play the Yankees this year.  That or the buzzer is going to let him know when to duck because another Code Red just got called in.

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On 1/13/2020 at 3:24 PM, Needschat said:

Your 2017 World Series Champions:

Houston Astericks! 

 

Houston+Asterisks.jpg

 

(Not my creation, BTW - here's the article where I found it.)

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8 hours ago, Bucfan56 said:

So Mike Trout is this generation‚Äôs Barry Bonds, huh? ūüėā

Trout would need a big head to accomplish that.

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11 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

LOL Wut?  I'm not sure that stealing signs is anywhere near what those other guys did - especially Rose.  Regarding HOF, it's stupid that they're not in, but as far as damaging the integrity of the game, they're all scumbag.

Devising an elaborate system to potentially read with electronics and relay every sign delivered to the opposing pitcher causes me to question the validity of the Astros' championship. Nothing that Bonds, Clemens, or Rose has done has come even close to causing me to question the integrity of the game as much as this incident has. Cora and Beltran should have received lifetime bans.

 

It's much easier for me to look past the steroid era or betting on your own team, although I certainly believe that the offenders should be punished for those too.

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1 hour ago, Marlins93 said:

Devising an elaborate system to potentially read with electronics and relay every sign delivered to the opposing pitcher causes me to question the validity of the Astros' championship. Nothing that Bonds, Clemens, or Rose has done has come even close to causing me to question the integrity of the game as much as this incident has. Cora and Beltran should have received lifetime bans.

 

It's much easier for me to look past the steroid era or betting on your own team, although I certainly believe that the offenders should be punished for those too.

 

Betting on your own team leads to rigging results. Stealing signs is a not-foolproof way to try to pick up your batting average some points.

 

I suppose the severity of affronts to the game are subjective, though.

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Pete Rose can eat s***. F*** that guy. 

 

The Astros can also eat s***. This isn't just "stealing signs". To steal signs you have to use your eyeballs, your wits, non-verbal communication with your own team's signs. It's acceptable if it's organic. Strapping a wire on a guy and then telling him what's coming because they're watching with a camera is outside of the spirit of the game and is just f****y cheating. 

 

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2 hours ago, Marlins93 said:

Devising an elaborate system to potentially read with electronics and relay every sign delivered to the opposing pitcher causes me to question the validity of the Astros' championship. Nothing that Bonds, Clemens, or Rose has done has come even close to causing me to question the integrity of the game as much as this incident has. Cora and Beltran should have received lifetime bans.

 

It's much easier for me to look past the steroid era or betting on your own team, although I certainly believe that the offenders should be punished for those too.

 

Betting - even if on your own team - is the worst of all of those.   There's very little difference if you're betting for or against your team.  Even if you're betting on your club to win, you might make decisions that aren't in the best interest of the team.  For example, leaving a reliever in longer than is good for him just because you have to win an otherwise meaningless mid-May game.  That could injure the reliever, or impact how the next few games are managed.  Or say you bet, but need to win by 3 runs to cover.  You're up by 2 in the 9th inning - you're telling me he wouldn't make decisions that a normal manager wouldn't in that situation?  Like pinch hit for a lights-out reliever so that he can get that 3rd run to cover?

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51 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

Pete Rose can eat s***. F*** that guy. 

 

The Astros can also eat s***. This isn't just "stealing signs". To steal signs you have to use your eyeballs, your wits, non-verbal communication with your own team's signs. It's acceptable if it's organic. Strapping a wire on a guy and then telling him what's coming because they're watching with a camera is outside of the spirit of the game and is just f****y cheating. 

 

 

They were wearing wires?  If so, then that's a uniform and/or equipment violation, and should be punished as such.  

 

Catcher's signs were developed in the 1800s.  Technology has advanced just a bit since then, but they're still sending signals like it's the 19th century.  That system needs to advance too - it's too easy to 'cheat'.

 

You don't blame a lion for eating a gazelle that's right in front of it.  I don't blame a team from using a video camera that's right there in front of them.  Is it scummy?  Of course.  But it's naive to think that every team isn't doing something - some are just better at it.

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Am I understanding correctly that teams are permitted to have guys in the back watching video replay, but only to tell the manager whether or not to challenge a call? Like they're only allowed to talk about the one thing?

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56 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

They were wearing wires?  If so, then that's a uniform and/or equipment violation, and should be punished as such.  

 

Catcher's signs were developed in the 1800s.  Technology has advanced just a bit since then, but they're still sending signals like it's the 19th century.  That system needs to advance too - it's too easy to 'cheat'.

 

You don't blame a lion for eating a gazelle that's right in front of it.  I don't blame a team from using a video camera that's right there in front of them.  Is it scummy?  Of course.  But it's naive to think that every team isn't doing something - some are just better at it.

This isn’t a lion eating a gazelle right in front of it. It’s more the lions at a zoo and Jumped out of the pen and killed a kid. They didn’t use the regular tv camera, they installed a separate camera to watch the signs and the dude in the tape room that was installed directly next to the dugout for this reason would either bang on a trash can to indicate certain pitches, or players had buzzers on them that they would use. It completely goes outside of the rules. And did give them an advantage.

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

You don't blame a lion for eating a gazelle that's right in front of it.  I don't blame a team from using a video camera that's right there in front of them.  Is it scummy?  Of course.  But it's naive to think that every team isn't doing something - some are just better at it.

This isn't an accurate account of what the Astros did at all. They installed a special camera dedicated to cheating--one that had a live closed circuit feed so they could read the signs instantaneously.

 

I don't know precisely what kind of set up most clubhouses have for replays, but it is definitely on a delay. What the Astros achieved would not have been possible unless they went out hunting for that gazelle (ie. installed an illegal camera) and right now there's zero evidence that other teams have stooped to this low. And no reason to believe that other teams have been doing it too. The live feed fixated on the catcher's hand is the game changer.

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Betting - even if on your own team - is the worst of all of those.   There's very little difference if you're betting for or against your team.  Even if you're betting on your club to win, you might make decisions that aren't in the best interest of the team.  For example, leaving a reliever in longer than is good for him just because you have to win an otherwise meaningless mid-May game.  That could injure the reliever, or impact how the next few games are managed.  Or say you bet, but need to win by 3 runs to cover.  You're up by 2 in the 9th inning - you're telling me he wouldn't make decisions that a normal manager wouldn't in that situation?  Like pinch hit for a lights-out reliever so that he can get that 3rd run to cover?

I'm well aware of the detriments of gambling on even one's own team and I'm not a devoted Rose defender, but the scenarios you outline still don't hold a candle to what the Astros did by installing their illegal camera feed. Gambling might lead to desperate decision-making and moves that a manager wouldn't normally make, but they don't call the results of playoff series or the World Series into question. The 2017 World Series will forever have a massive cloud hanging over it and the Astros will be illegitimate victors in my mind. Despite the scumminess of what Bonds, Clemens, and Rose have done, their actions do not have the same degree of catastrophic effects on the game itself. There are few things worse for baseball than what the Astros did--throwing the World Series being one of them.

 

The key point is that while Rose might have been making desperate moves that affected the outcomes of games, for better or for worse, he at least did nothing to give his team an unfair advantage over his opponents. 

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Expecting the Astros hitters to break the record of most batters hit by pinch this season. 

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Everyone associated with this is downright radioactive; especially Ludnow, Hinch and Cora. I want to say Beltran was an unwitting associate, but he's guilty by association. Ergo, he's also radioactive.

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13 minutes ago, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

Everyone associated with this is downright radioactive; especially Ludnow, Hinch and Cora. I want to say Beltran was an unwitting associate, but he's guilty by association. Ergo, he's also radioactive.

I’d say so, especially in a sport like baseball where everyone has extremely long memories and holds grudges/keeps people accountable for way longer than other sports. Greg Williams is back coaching after bounty gate, bill belichick was allowed to become the greatest coach ever, steroids and other performance enhancers are just suspensions for less than a 1/4 of the season in their respective sports and then forgotten while in baseball you get a minimum of half the season and then labeled for life as a roof user and barred from any career achievement. Micheal Jordan possibly had a gambling problem and retired for a year (rumor but still shows the forgiveness other sports have for players and personnel)

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Morse-coding the incoming pitches with buzzers, if true, is even more egregious than the cameras and the trash can.

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