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Oakland Athletics Wheel of Relocation


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4 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

That stadium (financed privately and with back door subsidies) made the domination of the Giants possible in that market, since the stadium was now a destination instead of a monument to Horace Stoneham’s immense stupidity.

 

Hold on, there.  

Candlestick Park was highly flawed, and pales in comparison to the current park.  But if the old stadium was a monument to anything regarding Stoneham, it would be a monument to his wisdom at having taken Walter O'Malley's advice and moving the Giants to San Francisco, thereby preserving one of baseball's great rivalries, rather than moving the club to Minneapolis as he had originally intended to do.  Every fan of baseball history thus owes Stoneham a debt of gratitude.

There is a new book on Stoneham out that I will soon pick up; it is called Forty Years a Giant, by Steve Treder.  I am very disappointed that no audio book seems to exist.  However, I hope to listen in the coming days to an interview with the author on Tim Hanlon's "Good Seats Still Available" podcast.

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1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

Hold on, there.  

Candlestick Park was highly flawed, and pales in comparison to the current park.  But if the old stadium was a monument to anything regarding Stoneham, it would be a monument to his wisdom at having taken Walter O'Malley's advice and moving the Giants to San Francisco, thereby preserving one of baseball's great rivalries, rather than moving the club to Minneapolis as he had originally intended to do.  Every fan of baseball history thus owes Stoneham a debt of gratitude.

 

That's not the stupid part. That was incredibly intelligent of him to do. His stupidity comes from not doing his due diligence when it came to scouting a proper stadium site and finding a better patch of land for such a venture.  That's why I called it a "monument to his stupidity." Maybe "monument to his naivete" would be more appropriate. 

 

1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:


There is a new book on Stoneham out that I will soon pick up; it is called Forty Years a Giant, by Steve Treder.  I am very disappointed that no audio book seems to exist.  However, I hope to listen in the coming days to an interview with the author on Tim Hanlon's "Good Seats Still Available" podcast.

 

I'd recommend Home Team by Robert F. Garratt (emeritus professor of English and humanities at the University of Puget Sound) for a Giants-centered perspective. There's an audiobook available, which should be fun. 

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2 hours ago, bosrs1 said:

Honestly I've always felt Oracle is overrated. If it hadn't been built on the water it's an otherwise cramped and somewhat pedestrian park.

 

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. It wouldn't be cramped if they hadn't built it where they built it, but the waterfront was the point. It's great. I just wish the team could give up the ghost on trying to sell the naming rights and call it Willie Mays Field. 

 

Candlestick was bad for the Giants but a lot better for the 49ers than Lego Stadium has been. They really should have built a new stadium on that parcel and barnstormed around the Bay for a few years till it was ready (Stanford, Berkeley, Oakland, aforementioned Willie Mays Field). 

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50 minutes ago, the admiral said:

 

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. It wouldn't be cramped if they hadn't built it where they built it, but the waterfront was the point. It's great. I just wish the team could give up the ghost on trying to sell the naming rights and call it Willie Mays Field. 

 

Candlestick was bad for the Giants but a lot better for the 49ers than Lego Stadium has been. They really should have built a new stadium on that parcel and barnstormed around the Bay for a few years till it was ready (Stanford, Berkeley, Oakland, aforementioned Willie Mays Field). 

 

Nah, the Candlestick site sucked. Coldest place in California in mid-summer you could ever watch a night game. That was the one thing that's ok with the move. Yes they hemmed themselves in and built a tiny, cramped and dreary ballpark by modern standards. But the location alone was miles better than Candlestick, and about 15 degrees warmer any given summer night. 

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1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

That's not the stupid part. That was incredibly intelligent of him to do. His stupidity comes from not doing his due diligence when it came to scouting a proper stadium site and finding a better patch of land for such a venture.  That's why I called it a "monument to his stupidity." Maybe "monument to his naivete" would be more appropriate. 

 

That's a good point.  (Unlike Candlestick Point, which was not a good point for a ballpark.)

 

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

I'd recommend Home Team by Robert F. Garratt (emeritus professor of English and humanities at the University of Puget Sound) for a Giants-centered perspective. There's an audiobook available, which should be fun. 

 

Wow, great!  Thanks for the tip on that.  I have just bought in in Audible.

 

 

Edit: In the podcast interview, Treder says that Garratt encouraged him to write his Stoneham book.

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On 6/1/2021 at 11:00 PM, GDAWG said:

 

Oracle Park is a beautiful stadium.  Better than that monstrosity the Rangers are playing.  

 

This is the lowest of possible bars to clear

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On 5/31/2021 at 8:20 PM, bosrs1 said:

 

 

Before. Though SF emptying out into the east bay hasn’t been helping matters. The Giants made major inroads in the Bonds/roids era, sealed the deal with the World Series runs, and stuck the knife in the A’s locally when they killed San Jose. I mean more power to them as it was well played and the A’s owners have been clueless off field for 30 years now. 


This is pretty much it. Sucks for the A’s, but they basically made their own bed on this one. They had a full decade to submit the paperwork returning the rights to them, and just never did 🤷‍♂️

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Just now, FiddySicks said:


This is pretty much it. Sucks for the A’s, but they basically made their own bed on this one. They had a full decade to submit the paperwork returning the rights to them, and just never did 🤷‍♂️


I’m curious about what that entailed. My reasoning being that I’m hitting a brick wall with trying to a San José A’s write-up for Defunct Saga. I have written 20-25 page history and research papers that were less daunting than summarizing the San José saga (in a way that didn’t perpetuate misinformation) in a clear way.

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1 minute ago, FiddySicks said:


This is pretty much it. Sucks for the A’s, but they basically made their own bed on this one. They had a full decade to submit the paperwork returning the rights to them, and just never did 🤷‍♂️

 

Worst part, came out very recently that the Giants apparently had no interest in moving to St. Petersburg, or the South Bay for that matter. Which means all of the A's efforts initially to help them stay in the Bay Area by offering to forego the rights on Santa Clara County... were really even more wasted than we already knew.

 

https://newballpark.org/2021/06/02/ghost-of-blue-ribbon-panel-speaks-out-in-favor-of-the-coliseum/

 

I mean again, I'm in awe of how much the Giants then owners played everyone. But again, the A's allowed themselves to be played, and then as you say didn't move to rectify it when it became clear the Giants were full of :censored: about moving to the South Bay. 

 

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1 minute ago, bosrs1 said:

 

Worst part, came out very recently that the Giants apparently had no interest in moving to St. Petersburg, or the South Bay for that matter. Which means all of the A's efforts initially to help them stay in the Bay Area by offering to forego the rights on Santa Clara County... were really even more wasted than we already knew.

 

https://newballpark.org/2021/06/02/ghost-of-blue-ribbon-panel-speaks-out-in-favor-of-the-coliseum

 

Given all the TV deal stuff that I’ve detailed earlier and Lurie’s willingness to loan money to the local group, I was pretty sure that letting the Giants actually move (even to Santa Clara County) was never in the cards. Lurie made it clear in statements that public funding measures for stadiums were unpopular with Bay Area voters, with two SF referendums failing along with the Santa Clara County and San José ones. Since SF business folk didn’t take the bleeping hint about Lurie’s goals, he went to the desperate folks in Tampa Bay to really deliver his message
 

Bob Lurie really knew how to play some suckers. He knew how to stir up a storm. Both Santa Clara/San José politicians (e.g., Mayor Susan Hammer) and the desperate St. Pete folks were the perfect marks for his plan to give the Giants good local ownership to solve the Candlescheisse problem. 


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You could even argue that he played Haas with the San José deal, even though Haas was arguably trying to get one-up on him.

 

1 minute ago, bosrs1 said:

 

I mean again, I'm in awe of how much the Giants then owners played everyone. But again, the A's allowed themselves to be played, and then as you say didn't move to rectify it when it became clear the Giants were full of :censored: about moving to the South Bay. 


Indeed. The A’s got complacent and missed the boat to gain even a slight edge in the market. 
 

That post is gonna need a bunch of primary source literature, which will be quite the dive.

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2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Given all the TV deal stuff that I’ve detailed earlier and Lurie’s willingness to loan money to the local group, I was pretty sure that letting the Giants actually move (even to Santa Clara County) was never in the cards. Lurie made it clear in statements that public funding measures for stadiums were unpopular with Bay Area voters, with two SF referendums failing along with the Santa Clara County and San José ones. Since SF business folk didn’t take the bleeping hint about Lurie’s goals, he went to the desperate folks in Tampa Bay to really deliver his message
 

Bob Lurie really knew how to play some suckers. He knew how to stir up a storm. Both Santa Clara/San José politicians (e.g., Mayor Susan Hammer) and the desperate St. Pete folks were the perfect marks for his plan to give the Giants good local ownership to solve the Candlescheisse problem. 


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You could even argue that he played Haas with the San José deal, even though Haas was arguably trying to get one-up on him.

 


Indeed. The A’s got complacent and missed the boat to gain even a slight edge in the market. 
 

That post is gonna need a bunch of primary source literature, which will be quite the dive.

 

Eh I've never bought the argument that the Haas family were trying to play the Giants. Even if the Giants had moved to San Jose I think it's pretty certain they still would have had more drawing potential from SF than the A's would have had. You saw a microcosm of that with the Niners when they moved all but to San Jose and it having no impact positively on the Raiders in Oakland. Sure the dynamics would have been a little different given it's baseball and not football. But fact is East Bay teams other than the Warriors (who were east bay only in location not in practice) have never had much appeal in the city proper. Or anywhere else in the Bay Area for that matter. Other than a few unsustainable years at the close of the 80's, the A's were always second fiddle when on even and even superior footing stadium wise to the Giants. And a San Jose Giants team in a new ballpark would have still had a leg up on the A's all these years financially (maybe even more so not having to pay off a ballpark presuming San Jose would have provided some form of public assistance on an SJ ballpark). And the Giants would still have had the lion share of the draw for most of the last 30 years both in person and on TV due to San Jose being primarily a Giants market even before they had the territorial rights to it (I grew up in the South Bay when the A's were at their absolute peak as a franchise during the Bash Bros. era, and outside my family I didn't need any hands to count how many A's fans I knew). 

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That's definitely a good assessment of the situation. I do wonder why the Warriors didn't consider bolting for San José when The Shark Tank finished construction, given that they played there during the Oracle Arena renovation. The Sharks draw well enough for the whole region (part of why the team delayed that much-needed rebuilt), so why not try their luck there instead of demanding an Oracle renovation?

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15 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

That's definitely a good assessment of the situation. I do wonder why the Warriors didn't consider bolting for San José when The Shark Tank finished construction, given that they played there during the Oracle Arena renovation. The Sharks draw well enough for the whole region (part of why the team delayed that much-needed rebuilt), so why not try their luck there instead of demanding an Oracle renovation?

Being second tenant to the Sharks might've been a downside.  At the Oracle, they were primary tenant so first dibs on dates.

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I think you really have to put into context just how different San Jose was back then compared to now. It’s a tech powerhouse now, but when the Sharks came in it was still sort of a bedroom community for those who couldn’t afford to/didn’t want to live that close San Francisco. And even today, access to the South Bay pales in comparison to the rest of the region. Maybe if those BART plans in the early 90s to move the lines further south had come to fruition (there was no realistic chance of this happening, for MANY reasons. Biggest being that South Bay residents simply didn’t want it.) things would’ve been different. But San Jose wasn’t really the draw in the early 90s that it is today.

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27 minutes ago, TBGKon said:

Being second tenant to the Sharks might've been a downside.  At the Oracle, they were primary tenant so first dibs on dates.

 

Bingo. Plus if you're able to swindle your current land lord for a new arena (which frankly was what they got as nothing but the outer shell of the old Coliseum Arena survived the rebuild into the New Arena in Oakland), why would you give that up to go be second tenant in a now older and somewhat simpler arena that was built primarily for hockey in San Jose? Not to say it was the right choice, obviously the "new" arena in Oakland was only good enough to keep the Warriors for a little more than 20 years before they bolted anyway.  

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Dave Kaval, for all of his recent uptalking of a potential move of the A's to the Las Vegas area, seems to have admitted that a Howard Terminal ballpark is, at least for now, much closer to becoming a reality than an MLB-ready venue anywhere in Southern Nevada:

 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/06/07/as-have-called-the-stadium-pursuit-in-las-vegas-and-oakland-parallel-paths-but-what-does-that-mean/ 

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So the A’s owner was just rattling his relocation saber to get a better deal locally? I remember when Mario Lemieux did the same thing to Kansas City so the Pens could get a new arena in Pittsburgh.

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