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MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside


So_Fla

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So I checked the boards for the first time this weekend and saw this, and had a bunch of thoughts. First, what a clickbait awful article with a source with no leads.

I know a few minor details about the stadium they're looking to build, and I'm not sharing anything. This is all research as a fan of the team, and information that's available. What I do know is that they're in year 2 of a 3 year deal that they can look outside St. Pete for stadium locations. They aren't rushing stadium plans like the 2008 sail stadium. They're going to be smart about this, and not build some 400 million dollar playground for billionaires. They've come out saying they want to have a community footprint and make it a 365 day facility, which could justify /some/ public money since it would hypothetically be open on non game days with shops and bars or whatever. They were going to put atleast $150 million of their own money to the sail stadium and hope the public voted for $300 million of the rest of it. That's why it failed. 

That being said.

This is a map of 30 mile radii centered around the Trop and the Lightning's arena. It's hard to draw a good crowd with half of that space under water. No, it's not a certainty they pack up for Tampa, but that's atleast what I tell myself is a glaring issue of a badly designed stadium by Populous a mile inland away from downtown, built 10 whole years before they had a full time baseball tenant.

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4 hours ago, DG_Now said:

 

I really don't know how true that is anymore. Have you ever been to FedEx Field from DC? It's a terrible, miserable experience that makes you feel like an :censored: for even bothering.

 

Contrast to CenturyLink, which is at the end of regional and local rail, that it almost feels simple in comparison.

 

3 hours ago, McCarthy said:

 

It's a way better experience when travel to and fro is made as easy as possible for the majority of people in the metro area. It's such a basic concept and this is the reason any Seattle arena proposal not in the downtown core is a bad idea. I only went to see the TBirds in Renton once and I probably would not have often gone to Tukwila to watch the Seattle NHL Hockey Pucks play and I'm the target demo. 

 

NFL teams can get away with playing in the burbs, but almost all of those cases would be better for the team if they were downtown. I love when I go to a Bengals game I almost don't even have to think about travel. I just hop on a bus and it delivers me right there. 

 

 

 

 

The sense I get is that the trend among NFL teams is to have a stadium within city limits. 

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I don't mind that the Redskins play in the middle of nowhere. Having a single-use football stadium in the District where you can't build vertically would be a huge waste of space. They need that space for overpriced condos and restaurants.

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On 7/22/2017 at 4:51 PM, Bucfan56 said:

My initial reaction is God I hope not, but if it keeps us from having a future Las Vegas Athletics, I'm cool with it. 

 

The A's are announcing their plans for their private ballpark, in Oakland, in a few months. With Wolff gone the A's aren't going anywhere. As for Vegas, I'll believe it when I see it. Baseball is so anti-gambling that I just don't see it happening.

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3 hours ago, McCarthy said:

 

NFL teams can get away with playing in the burbs, but almost all of those cases would be better for the team if they were downtown. I love when I go to a Bengals game I almost don't even have to think about travel. I just hop on a bus and it delivers me right there. 

 

5 hours ago, DG_Now said:

 

I really don't know how true that is anymore. Have you ever been to FedEx Field from DC? It's a terrible, miserable experience that makes you feel like an :censored: for even bothering.

 

Contrast to CenturyLink, which is at the end of regional and local rail, that it almost feels simple in comparison.

 

I never meant to imply that it was the preference of the fans, but rather the teams. Placing the team in the burbs/outer city limits seems to afford more control/favorable terms, for the NFL teams.

 

It's the same reason the other three leagues try it, but the NFL's event style schedule typically sees minimal impact, on the attendance.

 

Take Phoenix, for example. I almost never hear complaints from Cardinals fans, regarding the drive to Glendale. That same commute has the Coyotes bleeding money, and they play a stones throw away.

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39 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

 

 

I never meant to imply that it was the preference of the fans, but rather the teams. Placing the team in the burbs/outer city limits seems to afford more control/favorable terms, for the NFL teams.

 

It's the same reason the other three leagues try it, but the NFL's event style schedule typically sees minimal impact, on the attendance.

 

Take Phoenix, for example. I almost never hear complaints from Cardinals fans, regarding the drive to Glendale. That same commute has the Coyotes bleeding money, and they play a stones throw away.

Huge difference between 8 games and 41 games. I guarantee that you will hear the exact same song if they move from Glendale to the Scottsdale area. 

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23 minutes ago, Gary. said:

Huge difference between 8 games and 41 games. I guarantee that you will hear the exact same song if they move from Glendale to the Scottsdale area. 

 

Doubtful. It won't be the panacea some people expect, but it'll be an improvement over Glendale.

 

Scottsdale has more money, East metro has a higher population and it puts them closer to Tempe, Chandler and Mesa, while being about the same commute, from downtown Phoenix. I have several East Valley friends who would attend more games, in Scottsdale. Two of those would probably make the jump to STH.

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Them moving east to Scottsdale/Tempe would be a HUGE improvement for the simple fact that the majority of Phoenix's population sits east of the city. Why anyone thought moving a hockey team further away from a population who barely cared about the team when they were still easily accessible was a good idea, I'll never know. 

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On 11/19/2012 at 7:23 PM, oldschoolvikings said:
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It was 2001, not a time in our history known for prudent attitudes toward real estate development. They probably thought that the West Valley would catch up because everything would keep growing and appreciating and nothing would ever go wrong. 

 

I think Scottsdale has already spoken on whether it wants the Coyotes.

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What about the cities of Charlotte or Indianapolis? Wouldn't they be good markets for an MLB franchise? 

 

There's nothing between Washington D.C. and Atlanta. I've heard you need about 2 million people to make a professional franchise fly. Both metro regions for these cities are right around that mark.  

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3 hours ago, the admiral said:

I don't mind that the Redskins play in the middle of nowhere. Having a single-use football stadium in the District where you can't build vertically would be a huge waste of space. They need that space for overpriced condos and restaurants.

 

If it's 8 games a year (plus 2 extortion games), yes, indeed. But DC is currently building a soccer stadium that, like Atlanta, could be duel-use. That at least gets you up to about 30 events a year, plus soccer exhibitions, plus concerts, plus X Game stuff, plus boat shows.

 

I'm not sure what happens at FedEx, but if you made the stadium more multipurpose it could have a greater use.

 

And with that, I just looked up the FedEx Field schedule and saw that they're hosting an International Champions Cup exhibition Wednesday and some NCAA football game in addition to the NFL season. Plus a Coldplay concert.

 

All that stuff is better served in a city. DC is a special case due to its severe building restrictions, but FedEx Field (perhaps in contrast to, say, Ralph Wilson or MetLife), is especially far and especially terrible.  

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1 hour ago, ShutUpLutz! said:

and the drunken doodoobags jumping off the tops of SUV's/vans/RV's onto tables because, oh yeah, they are drunken drug abusing doodoobags

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Charlotte already has football and basketball and isn't terribly passionate about either. (And not that you asked but Raleigh could have a shot if the Zombie Whalers were liberated from that overgrown office park and baseball could be their one pro sport.) Plus it's a major transplant town. Baseball and hockey are the sports least amenable to high-transplant areas.

 

Indianapolis is within reasonable driving distance of Cincinnati, Chicago x2, St. Louis, and Detroit, and is valuable RSN territory for at least the Chicago teams and maybe more. I say no.

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5 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

 

If it's 8 games a year (plus 2 extortion games), yes, indeed. But DC is currently building a soccer stadium that, like Atlanta, could be duel-use. That at least gets you up to about 30 events a year, plus soccer exhibitions, plus concerts, plus X Game stuff, plus boat shows.

 

I'm not sure what happens at FedEx, but if you made the stadium more multipurpose it could have a greater use.

 

And with that, I just looked up the FedEx Field schedule and saw that they're hosting an International Champions Cup exhibition Wednesday and some NCAA football game in addition to the NFL season. Plus a Coldplay concert.

 

All that stuff is better served in a city. DC is a special case due to its severe building restrictions, but FedEx Field (perhaps in contrast to, say, Ralph Wilson or MetLife), is especially far and especially terrible.  

 

The other thing about DC being special is that I don't think of the Skins as a particularly "city" team. I don't have a Cobb County Braves heat map to prove it but it seems like the real power base of Redskins fandom is suburban/exurban Maryland and Virginia more so than, like, Georgetown or whatever. So if they're out in the sprawl, whatever.

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14 hours ago, Fassy said:

What about the cities of Charlotte or Indianapolis? Wouldn't they be good markets for an MLB franchise? 

 

There's nothing between Washington D.C. and Atlanta. I've heard you need about 2 million people to make a professional franchise fly. Both metro regions for these cities are right around that mark.  

@the admiral hit the nail on the head, with Indianapolis, and Charlotte.

 

What he left out was the AAA angle. Both cities host AAA baseball. Trip-A Minor League baseball is, generally, a pretty stable entity. Also, Charlotte just shelled out millions, for a new home, for the Knights.

 

The only three noticeable US/Can markets not served by MLB/AAA are Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal. All three need a stadium.

 

As far as I know, the only vacant market with a suitable venue is Omaha. Not a home run, but I can think of worse things to do, with the Rays.

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Speaking of AAA stability, Omaha has been Kansas City's farm club since the Royals were established. 

 

Apparently TD Ameritrade Park can be expanded to 35,000. More than the Thunder, it would be a Winnipeg Jets deal where it's not only a small park but one you have to sell out every day. You know, there might be something to Omaha and trying to pull off one boutique market in MLB.

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2 hours ago, the admiral said:

Speaking of AAA stability, Omaha has been Kansas City's farm club since the Royals were established. 

 

Apparently TD Ameritrade Park can be expanded to 35,000. More than the Thunder, it would be a Winnipeg Jets deal where it's not only a small park but one you have to sell out every day. You know, there might be something to Omaha and trying to pull off one boutique market in MLB.

Despite only having about 915K metro population, Omaha does have a disproportionate number of Fortune 500 & 1000 companies. The Rays would likely go for a bit of a deal, and Omaha does have a prominent businessman known for loving a good deal.

 

I'm not convinced, but the idea does have some merit.

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42 minutes ago, LA_Angels said:

Is Portland no longer a viable option?

 

They rebuilt the local AAA baseball stadium into a Soccer Specific Stadium, so no, it isn't.

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On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
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The Expos had a solid fan base. They needed an updated stadium.  I think it would be good for baseball to bring the Expos back to life. I think a Blue Jays-Expos rivalry would be excellent - a Canadian version of Yankees-Red Sox.  

 

As for Tampa, if the stadium was in Tampa and not in the Forbidden Zone of St. Pete, I bet attendance would be a ton higher.

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