Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

This is totally misplaced.  The Expos could have survived in Quebec ruled by the PQ — or even, if all had gone well, in an independent Quebec — if they had had competent ownership.

 


I don't think it's totally misplaced.  The spectre of Quebec separatism did cause much of Montreal's corporate infrastructure to move west. (Hence, BMO, the Bank of Montreal, is now headquartered in Toronto.) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Award for the most pointless cap in the league?

spacer.png

I’m watching them wear this and I often forget the white outline is there. The difference so minuscule, they might as well be wearing the classic blue cap. The 2 tone cap was much better.

This one here has no reason to exist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NicDB said:


I don't think it's totally misplaced.  The spectre of Quebec separatism did cause much of Montreal's corporate infrastructure to move west. (Hence, BMO, the Bank of Montreal, is now headquartered in Toronto.) 

 

Agreed. It’s important to understand how much the demographic shift produced by Bill 101 turned away the baseball fandom of the area, as well as the corporate support networks needed to fund a competitive team. Said separatist leanings increased the pain the province faced during the Canadian recession of the 1990s, especially after the referendum failed.

 

Without the PQ, maybe the Expos would have had a better corporate support network to keep the team afloat through the recession (like the Blue Jays, who arguably benefitted from a post-Bill 101 Canada and claimed Southern Ontario as their territory - hurting the Expos’ revenue). Without the separatist referendum, maybe they get a stadium built with public money (it never should have come to that, but I’m just being realistic). With a stadium or better ownership, Loria never would have been sent in to “salt the earth” and the team wouldn’t have fallen as far. 

 

Those who try to claim that the PQ weren’t at fault to some extent are misguided. Heck, Jonah Keri made a point to mention these “demographic issues” in Up, Up, and Away. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, insert name said:

Award for the most pointless cap in the league?

spacer.png

I’m watching them wear this and I often forget the white outline is there. The difference so minuscule, they might as well be wearing the classic blue cap. The 2 tone cap was much better.

This one here has no reason to exist. 

Just so they can match the jersey...

 

Do they still wear the one with the silver logo? I like this one and it's different enough to be unique. 

unnamed-1212.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, NicDB said:


I don't think it's totally misplaced.  The spectre of Quebec separatism did cause much of Montreal's corporate infrastructure to move west. (Hence, BMO, the Bank of Montreal, is now headquartered in Toronto.) 

 

My understanding was that there was in fact a new stadium deal in place with a split of private and public money.  Loria complained the amount of public money wasn't enough, Montreal said take it or leave it, and that was the end.  Here is a little blurb from an article I found...

 

In his first speech as owner of the Expos, Loria demanded a new stadium for his team. He bluntly said of Olympic Stadium, "We cannot and will not stay there."

The city made it very clear at the time that they would not build a new facility when millions were still owed on the existing stadium. Later, though, the city began to warm to the idea of a new stadium and LaBatt Park was designed and was ready to be built using a combination of public and private financing. The facility was to be ready for the 2002 season. However, Loria balked and demanded that the city pay a higher percentage of the building costs.

The city, weary of dealing with Loria, cancelled the project.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, insert name said:

Award for the most pointless cap in the league?

spacer.png

I’m watching them wear this and I often forget the white outline is there. The difference so minuscule, they might as well be wearing the classic blue cap. The 2 tone cap was much better.

This one here has no reason to exist. 

 

Just like the Pirates alternate cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mjd77 said:

 

My understanding was that there was in fact a new stadium deal in place with a split of private and public money.  Loria complained the amount of public money wasn't enough, Montreal said take it or leave it, and that was the end.  Here is a little blurb from an article I found...

 

In his first speech as owner of the Expos, Loria demanded a new stadium for his team. He bluntly said of Olympic Stadium, "We cannot and will not stay there."

The city made it very clear at the time that they would not build a new facility when millions were still owed on the existing stadium. Later, though, the city began to warm to the idea of a new stadium and LaBatt Park was designed and was ready to be built using a combination of public and private financing. The facility was to be ready for the 2002 season. However, Loria balked and demanded that the city pay a higher percentage of the building costs.

The city, weary of dealing with Loria, cancelled the project.

 

 

He did the same exact thing with Miami except that the city/county actually caved. I'd argue that the Marlins were facing a more dire situation due to the lack of a roof and unfavorable lease terms at Joe Robbie limiting their revenue. Of course Loria's main motivation in both Montreal and Miami was to build a new park to drastically increase the value of the franchise for the inevitable sale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Mets cap with the white outline is to match the blue alternate jerseys, which have an orange script outlined in white. The same goes for the Pirates and their outlined cap logo.

 

Related image

 

Image result for pittsburgh pirates 2016

 

I would argue that the white helps the orange pop out on the Mets jersey. That being said, I don't think it is needed for Pittsburgh... but it's there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really loathe these trends towards compulsory "consistency." Some uniforms have been helped with a bit of clean up, but baseball did just fine without such expectations for decades and it gave us such quirks like the Dodgers red numbers or the Tigers orange road trim.  Now it just seems to lead to changes that add absolutely nothing to the overall identity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

This is totally misplaced.  The Expos could have survived in Quebec ruled by the PQ — or even, if all had gone well, in an independent Quebec — if they had had competent ownership.

 

You're high as balls; Montreal would have crumbled to the ground in an "independent," emphasis on the scare quotes, Quebec. Turns out governments that intentionally destabilize themselves out of petty grievances and then opt out of having their own monetary policies are not growth markets. Not only would the Expos not have survived, it may have even put a bullet in the Canadiens, or, at absolute best, left them in an even more enfeebled state than they're already in now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The loss of the expos, while sad was the loss of one of the worst looking teams. From a design aspect I’d take what Washington has done recently over anything Montreal did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BellaSpurs said:

The loss of the expos, while sad was the loss of one of the worst looking teams. From a design aspect I’d take what Washington has done recently over anything Montreal did.

 

I think this is going to be a very unpopular opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Brandon9485 said:

 

I think this is going to be a very unpopular opinion. 

I know, and partially due to the fact everyone has grown up with the expos compared to me being the minority and the most of my life they’ve been the nats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BellaSpurs said:

I know, and partially due to the fact everyone has grown up with the expos compared to me being the minority and the most of my life they’ve been the nats.

 

But what is bad about the Expos outside your lack of memory of them? Both the home and road uniform they ended with in 2004 are classics in my opinion. 

 

I like what the Nats have to work with, but I wish they’d drop all of their patriotic uniforms and hats (it’s overkill), standardize their hats and jerseys to home or away. Wearing the blue cap at home makes me think they don’t know what they’re doing. I like the road uniform, now drop the navy alt, add the Nationals script to a white home, and keep the red alt as it plays at home and on the road. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I much prefer the Expos logos and uniforms to what the Nats wear.

 

Loved the pinstripes of the later years and think the cap monogram is miles better than the Brewers BiG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brandon9485 said:

 

But what is bad about the Expos outside your lack of memory of them? Both the home and road uniform they ended with in 2004 are classics in my opinion. 

 

I like what the Nats have to work with, but I wish they’d drop all of their patriotic uniforms and hats (it’s overkill), standardize their hats and jerseys to home or away. Wearing the blue cap at home makes me think they don’t know what they’re doing. I like the road uniform, now drop the navy alt, add the Nationals script to a white home, and keep the red alt as it plays at home and on the road. 

The colors don’t mix well imo, well The shades don’t, and the logo made no sense, the logo with the letters underneath of it on the chest of the jersey was dumb. Their last uniforms, which honestly I forget about were definitely the best they had. The script was much nicer. But the light blue felt forced and ugly. Overall the Nats brand is cleaner nicer, and while needing some tweaking could look really nice. I always felt as though Montreal had so much to build off of for a brand but were restricted with the Expos, which was also a bad name.

I would love a team in Montreal tbh, but I don’t want the Expos back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The Expos’ wordmarks, colors, and jersey designs were fine. Sure, 1992-04 designs could use a tweaking to get them less “bulbous” looking, but they were still good.

 

The “eMb”/“Meb”/“elbM” is one of the single worst logos in baseball history. That blob’s problem’s are best summed up by @Gothamite here:

 

Quote

The Expos logo, on the other hand, is a bloody mess. It's supposed to look like an "M", but doesn't. The muddy silhouette, moreover, is clearly comprised of a distinctive and unmistakeable "e", "l", and "b". Which was not the intended effect.


...with @B-Rich doing some more “visual” examinations of why it doesn’t work:

 

Quote

Back on topic: The Expos brand, in my opinion is one of the worst ever in sports. 

And one of the parts that people don't discuss, which I'll go into graphically below, is that it is terribly rendered from a technical sense, and graphically incorrect in what it is trying to supposedly convey (according to the official description).

Briefly, though, a few thoughts before I go into that. 

1. Naming a team for a world's fair that occurred 2 years before the team first played is a goofy idea. I know the World's Fair was a great success and was a point of pride for those of Montreal, but seriously? Expos? Not to be outdone, Montreal did the same type of thing again a few years later, naming their first NASL team the Olympiques, one year after the city was awarded that event.

2. The concept of the logo, as one can see from the discussion on the board, the Newhart clip, and other references, is shoddy. Is it an "M" or not? There is clearly a lower case "e" in red, but is the right half of the logo a lowercase "b"? And what about the white section? Is it an "I", a "J", or something else, or negative space? Plus the whole original team name "expos" being done in lower case looks dumb. I am aware that use of all lowercase may have been a "thing" in the late 60s, but it still looked stupid.

3. Now on to the design itself. As per the earlier discussion, there is a general consensus backed up by the official description that the logo in its entirety represents a capital "M", with big rounded serifs on both bottom ends. However, it is not just any "M". but what I would call a "closed" M. For comparison's sake, let's look at an open "E" and a closed "E":

CLOSED%20E%202.jpg

Both adequately convey the letter "E", but the one on the right is "closed" with only lines and no space differentiating the arms of the capital "E".

Let's start by disregarding the 3 colors and the "e" and "b", and begin with a look at the outline of the "M", provided by Cesarano:

M%20outline.jpg

Now, to turn this into an "M", you would need to add three lines; one from the top down and two from the bottom up. The indentations in between the rounded curves indicate where these lines would go (see 1st picture below). But if you add the lines, keeping them parallel with the existing parallel outside lines of the "M" (and overall italicization of the logo), look at what you come up with (2nd pic below):

Parallel%20lines.jpg

It's unbalanced and irregular. It doesn't work. We can try a different track, and point the interior lines to the midpoint of each opposite curve (see 1st pic below). It looks a little better, but is still something that is imbalanced and irregular. The fact that all vertical lines are not parallel works against the eyes. It may be better if the lines separating the "legs" of the M diminished to a vanishing point, rather than the straight edge ends that I used here, but I don't think so:

points%20to%20center.jpg

That being said, could the original Montreal Expos "M" logo (1st pic below) be tweaked and fixed? I took a shot at it, based upon maintaining the parallel lines concept and the closed "M". I also added a "hole" to better advertise the "b". I tried several iterations to mirror the curlicue of the "e" to make the loop of the "b", but none of them worked. I think the capital "M" is a little more noticeable-- the curl of the "e" indicates the break in between two legs, and the white/blue centered break does the same-- but that's about the only improvement.

original%20and%20fixed.jpg

 

I think it’s an ugly blob that fails to accomplish its goal. It tries to cram too much into one design, creates ambiguity over the various shapes (hence why people think there’s a hidden “l,” when there is none), and the letters are poorly-constructed.

 

Say what you want about the “curly W”/“interlocking DC” or any other part of the Nationals’ identity, it’s at least clear what all the letters are meant to be. The team has some inconsistencies, sure, but it has no elements as awful as the “Meb” blob. Heck, the “M-blob” is also a terrible example of the “French Canadian” style. Compare it to what the Alouettes and Nordiques did:

 

6094.gif270.gif

 

I don’t even like the Nordiques’ crest that much, but it’s better than the Expos’ design. Affiliates also nailed the aesthetic of the club without having a blob logo.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-SHnAL5KtRc3Oa-RTM75

1987-jacksonville-expos-new-era-59fifty-

 

I don’t mind the name coming back, especially for how Expo ‘67 was such a shining moment in the city’s history (without the baggage of what happen in 1976 and how that Olympics kind of doomed the Expos). I just don’t want that crummy logo back.

 

On 5/24/2019 at 8:35 AM, Marlins93 said:

I much prefer the Expos logos and uniforms to what the Nats wear.

 

Loved the pinstripes of the later years and think the cap monogram is miles better than the Brewers BiG.

 

Sure, I can see that, seeing as how you grew up with the Expos’ logo set and their 1992-04 uniforms. I get the sense that there are very few “new” designs you like.

 

Saying that the “M-blob” is better than the BiG, that’s a strange take. I’m not even a big BiG guy, but at least it’s clearly an “mb” and has a better construction. 

 

Edited by SFGiants58
Spelling/grammar fixes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2019 at 4:09 AM, the admiral said:

petty grievances

 

The question of national identity is not petty.

 

The Quebecois people clearly consider their nation to be Quebec — the provincial parliament is called the National Assembly — and see Canada as a confederation of nations.  If English Canada is not prepared to accept this characterisation (one which describes the traditional relationship between the founding peoples of Canada), then it should have no problem letting Quebec chart its own course democratically.

 

In other words: the deniers of Quebecois nationhood should not wonder why those in whose eye they have just spit wish to use democratic means to formalise and protect that nationhood.

 

 

On 5/24/2019 at 4:09 AM, the admiral said:

You're high as balls; Montreal would have crumbled to the ground in an "independent," emphasis on the scare quotes, Quebec. Turns out governments that intentionally destabilize themselves out of petty grievances and then opt out of having their own monetary policies are not growth markets. Not only would the Expos not have survived, it may have even put a bullet in the Canadiens, or, at absolute best, left them in an even more enfeebled state than they're already in now.

 

On 5/24/2019 at 6:21 AM, WSU151 said:

"Quebexit" (hey why not)  

 

This is an ironic comment, because Quebec independence would have created a relationship very similar to that which exists in the Eurozone (a grouping which never included Britain, even before Brexit) — namely, one between independent countries with a  common monetary policy.  Canada would have played the dominant role of Germany or France, the ones who actually set the policy, with Quebec comparable to a small economy such as Belgium or Portugal.

 

If Major League Baseball and the NHL can operate on both sides of the Canadian-U.S. international border, then these leagues could easily have straddled an international border between Canada and Quebec.

 

 

On 5/24/2019 at 8:58 AM, BellaSpurs said:

most of my life they’ve been the nats.


Fans like this constitute the most important reason for the Nationals to wear the Expos throwbacks. The throwbacks are necessary on the grounds of education.

 

Someone is bound to retort that the team is doing this not in order to educate anyone, but simply to sell merchandise. To which I reply: I don't care.  I care only about the outcome, which will be that baseball fans (especially the youngest ones) will be reminded that the Expos are part of this franchise.  Knowing the facts of history is a good in its own right.

 

 

On 5/24/2019 at 8:55 AM, BellaSpurs said:

The loss of the expos, while sad was the loss of one of the worst looking teams. From a design aspect I’d take what Washington has done recently over anything Montreal did.

 

I can agree that the Nationals have a beautiful look, especially at home.  This...

Image result for washington nationals 2018

 

...is one of the finest looks in baseball, though I would simplify the piping to red only, as the Rangers of the mid-1990s showed how good red-on-blue lettering looks next to simple red piping.  And these particular gentlemen make the uniform even nicer by knowing how to wear their socks (even if they all should be wearing the same design).

 

BUUUUUUT ... that's no reason to denegrate the Expos' gorgeous look.  The team's original uniforms were fantastic, with that iconic logo (even if some people claim to be confused by it), the lower-case wordmark, the tri-colour cap, and the elegant number font.  Do not even try telling me that this...

 

Image result for expos staub

 

...is not a beautiful uniform, because I am just not having it.  The introduction of the racing stripe was unnecessary; this gaudy feature clashed with the overall aesthetic. But that still did not destroy the unique beauty of this uniform.

 

Related image

 

The only problem with the original uniforms was that the road set was always powder blue rather than grey.  But, if the Expos had kept this set past 1991, they surely would have switched to grey on the road, as they did with the new uniforms; and the road look would have experienced the same improvement that the Phillies' and Brewers' road uniforms did when those teams replaced powder blue with grey.

 

 

On 5/24/2019 at 9:06 AM, Brandon9485 said:

Both the home and road uniform they ended with in 2004 are classics in my opinion. 

 

On 5/24/2019 at 9:35 AM, Marlins93 said:

Loved the pinstripes of the later years

 

I think the Expos' latter-day home uniform was pretty bad.  That uniform, with its generic cursive wordmark, had no identity. And without the tri-colour cap the team lost a feature that was just as fundamental to the look as is the logo. That set pales in comparison to the real Expos uniforms.

 

However, the road version was pretty solid, especially with the fleur-de-lis right above the wordmark. And, while I prefer the tri-colour cap, I suppose that I could accept the solid blue cap on the road.

Image result for expos mel rojas

 

I would like to have seen this road uniform paired with the classic home uniform, but with the Expos' classic number font.  I'd remove the racing stripe from the home set and add to the home jersey the sleeve stripes we see here on road jersey.  I could even see using the blue hat on the road instead of the tri-colour hat; this would keep a consistent theme of road cap and the road jersey being less ornate than their home counterparts.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

The question of national identity is not petty.

 

The Quebecois people clearly consider their nation to be Quebec — the provincial parliament is called the National Assembly — and see Canada as a confederation of nations.  If English Canada is not prepared to accept this characterisation (one which describes the traditional relationship between the founding peoples of Canada), then it should have no problem letting Quebec chart its own course democratically.

 

In other words: the deniers of Quebecois nationhood should not wonder why those in whose eye they have just spit wish to use democratic means to formalise and protect that nationhood.

 

 

...at the expense of the Jewish population, cultural plurality, and having a stable business community. Ask @Ice_Cap how that went. 

 

Speaking of which, regional identity? That sounds mighty familiar (“Dixie” plays slowly in the background).

 

Quote

 

 

This is an ironic comment, because Quebec independence would have created a relationship very similar to that which exists in the Eurozone (a grouping which never included Britain, even before Brexit) — namely, one between independent countries with a  common monetary policy.  Canada would have played the dominant role of Germany or France, the ones who actually set the policy, with Quebec comparable to a small economy such at Belgium or Portugal.

 

If Major League Baseball and the NHL can operate on both sides of the Canadian-U.S. international border, then these leagues could easily have straddled an international border between Canada and Quebec.

 

 

So, you don’t think that the Canadian recession of the 1990s would have been exceptionally bad for Quebec had they separated? You also don’t think that the Canadian government wouldn’t have tried to put some variety of sanctions on the province? That’s a tad naive.

 

Quote


Fans like this constitute the most important reason for the Nationals to wear the Expos throwbacks. The throwbacks are necessary on the grounds of education.

 

Teach them what? They know they were the Expos and they like the Nationals’ design more? Do they need to be “educated” in the opinion that the Expos had a great look (according to you)?

 

Quote

Someone is bound to retort that the team is doing this not in order to educate anyone, but simply to sell merchandise. To which I reply: I don't care.  I care only about the outcome, which will be that baseball fans (especially the youngest ones) will be reminded that the Expos are part of this franchise.  Knowing the facts of history is a good in its own right.

 

 

They already know it.

 

Quote

 

I can agree that the Nationals have a beautiful look, especially at home.  This...

Image result for washington nationals 2018

 

...is one of the finest looks in baseball, though I would simplify the piping to red only, as the Rangers of the mid-1990s showed how good red-on-blue lettering looks next to simple red piping.  And these particular gentlemen make the uniform even nicer by knowing how to wear their socks (even if they all should be wearing the same design).

 

It’s fine, but the interlocking “DC” (with some clean-up) and the “Nationals” script are better than the “W.”

 

Quote

BUUUUUUT ... that's no reason to denegrate the Expos' gorgeous look.  The team's original uniforms were fantastic, with that iconic logo (even if some people claim to be confused by it), the lower-case wordmark, the tri-colour cap, and the elegant number font.  Do not even try telling me that this...

 

Image result for expos staub

 

...is not a beautiful uniform, because I am just not having it.  The introduction of the racing stripe was unnecessary; this gaudy feature clashed with the overall aesthetic. But that still did not destroy the unique beauty of this uniform.

 

The striping and color balance are fine. The logo was garbage.

 

Quote

Related image

 

The only problem with the original uniforms was that the road set was always powder blue rather than grey.  But, if the Expos had kept this set past 1991, they surely would have switched to grey on the road, as they did with the new uniforms; and the road look would have experienced the same improvement that the Phillies' and Brewers' road uniforms did when those teams replaced powder blue with grey.

 

 

I’d agree with that.

 

Quote

 

I think the Expos' latter-day home uniform was pretty bad.  That uniform, with its generic cursive wordmark, had no identity. And without the tri-colour cap the team lost a feature that was just as fundamental to the look as is the logo. That set pales in comparison to the real Expos uniforms.

 

Again, I agree to an extent. Blue pinstripes brings them too close to the Mets and Cubs. The cursive script could use some clean-up to work and the blue cap is fine. Also, using the word “real” is just a bad rhetorical approach.

 

Quote

However, the road version was pretty solid, especially with the fleur-de-lis right above the wordmark. And, while I prefer the tri-colour cap, I suppose that I could accept the solid blue cap on the road.

Image result for expos mel rojas

 

Thinner arm stripes (1969-sized) would be better, as well as a blue script with a single red outline.

 

Quote

I would like to have seen this road uniform paired with the classic home uniform, but with the Expos' classic number font.  I'd remove the racing stripe from the home set and add to the home jersey the sleeve stripes we see here on road jersey.  I could even see using the blue hat on the road instead of the tri-colour hat; this would keep a consistent theme of road cap and the road jersey being less ornate than their home counterparts.
 

 

Yeah, no. The thick stripes are the worst part of that road uniform. The Clarendon numbers are also not an improvement over a simple block variant (Wilson Varsity isn’t a favorite of mine).

 

Eh, different strokes for different folks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.