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Kobe Bryant Dies in Helicopter Crash

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I'm already tired of reading earnest Kobe Bryant think pieces.

 

The guy lived his life in front of cameras from 1996 until yesterday. I can't think of much new context or new information we need to determine our feelings on Kobe.

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49 minutes ago, pmoehrin said:

 

I'll just leave this here.

 

 

 

People react to death in a million different ways. To bash them for that is more than a little impolite. 

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38 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

There's a reason professional sports halls of fame tend not to elect players until five years after retirement; to avoid knee-jerk reactions.  Unfortunately, the Mavericks have already done this...and are they going to go back?  Probably not, because that would be a "dishonor."

 

All the tributes we saw yesterday in the various arenas were great.  But I hope the league and the rest of the teams are careful before they etch more things in stone.  I don't want to see 8 and 24 retired leaguewide.  Otherwise you'll get people clamoring for 23.  And then older people for 33 (Bird) and 32 (Magic).  And really old-school guys for Oscar Robertson (1?), etc.  Let's take some time to mourn, breathe, and reflect before making permanent changes.

 

First, kudos for correctly referring to them as "halls of fame." Most people would have said "hall of fames."

 

Anyway, I could not agree with you more. Well said. 

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15 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

I'm already tired of reading earnest Kobe Bryant think pieces.

 

The guy lived his life in front of cameras from 1996 until yesterday. I can't think of much new context or new information we need to determine our feelings on Kobe.

 

I'm guilty.

 

I've seen multiple "all he did was throw a ball through a hoop" comments since yesterday and made a long-ish Facebook post about it. More calling those people out than a "Kobe think piece," but it's in a similar vein.

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23 hours ago, DG_Now said:

I'm already tired of reading earnest Kobe Bryant think pieces.

 

The guy lived his life in front of cameras from 1996 until yesterday. I can't think of much new context or new information we need to determine our feelings on Kobe.

To be fair, it's given me a new perspective (well, this thread, mostly).

I hated Kobe from the time he declared he must play in a big market.  Then watching him get all the calls.  Then the rape accusation.  Then the pass he was given for it.  Hi greatness on the floor was connected, for better and worse, to who he was.  I knew he had that intangible that maybe only Jordan has had in our lives, so I respected that.

I struggle with those accused of rape...rape is the hardest crime there is to prove (thanks in part to rape culture, which is real, but also the general nature of he said / she said) but once someone is acquitted or, as in this case, the charges are dropped, we have almost no choice but to begrudgingly welcome them back.  The Eagle, CO case always stuck with me and it will always be a part of his legacy.

 

And while I'm never going to be comfortable in my suspicions that he "got off" I actually kinda think he was able to learn from it and become better for it.  Maybe, while putting his own freedom first, he also understood where she was coming from.  Throw in having several daughters, and I think he might have turned it around some. I of course, don't know, but that feeling has only come about in the last 24 hours.  As I see his dedication to parenthood, the WNBA, etc.  There's a ton of nuance and I'll never pretend to really know what he was about...but in the last 24 hours, this stuff has moved him from "retired superstar" to "complex human" for me.

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17 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

To be fair, it's given me a new perspective (well, this thread, mostly).

I hated Kobe from the time he declared he must play in a big market.  Then watching him get all the calls.  Then the rape accusation.  Then the pass he was given for it.  Hi greatness on the floor was connected, for better and worse, to who he was.  I knew he had that intangible that maybe only Jordan has had in our lives, so I respected that.

I struggle with those accused of rape...rape is the hardest crime their is to prove (thanks in part to rape culture, which is real, but also the general nature of he said / she said) but once someone is acquitted or, as in this case, the charges are dropped, we have almost no choice but to begrudgingly welcome them back.  The Eagle, CO case always stuck with me and it will always be a part of his legacy.

 

And while I'm never going to be comfortable in my suspicions that he "got off" I actually kinda think he was able to learn from it and become better for it.  Maybe, while putting his own freedom first, he also understood where she was coming from.  Throw in having several daughters, and I think he might have turned it around some. I of course, don't know, but that feeling has only come about in the last 24 hours.  As I see his dedication to parenthood, the WNBA, etc.  There's a ton of nuance and I'll never pretend to really know what he was about...but in the last 24 hours, this stuff has moved him from "retired superstar" to "complex human" for me.

 

Obviously we'll never know the full truth about what happened in Colorado, and depending on what he did, maybe he really shouldn't have gotten a "second chance" until further down the road than he did, but let Kobe's behavior on such matters afterwards be another example that the goal with people who have made mistakes such as sexual assault or domestic violence (and other stuff, of course, but these being such big talking points in recent years) is to (try to) rehabilitate them into better people, not to write them off, flush their careers down the drain, and never want to hear anything about them ever again and that, if they ever do actually do anything good ever again, that it should immediately come with a "yeah, but" reminder. I'm very satisfied that, as a society, speaking up on matters such as domestic violence has become more widespread. People shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable in their homes and around people they want to think of as loved ones. But it's also been one of those things where I've felt such an over-correction towards it that we don't want to give these people a second chance to try and be better people afterwards. That the punishment they've received, if not from the authorities than certainly from their sports leagues, in the form of suspensions and wage deductions, isn't enough for some people. Frankly, it's infuriating.

 

People make mistakes. Some people make big mistakes. Some of those people get punished accordingly (and, unfortunately of course, some don't, but that's an issue with law and courts). Some of those people learn, are better, and don't make those mistakes again. Unfortunately, some don't. But if we all we want to do with these people is throw them in jail and forget about them and admonish them even after they've paid their debt to society, all we've done is defeat the purpose for why they got punished in the first place, and in the process only helped to make society more cynical than it already is. And that's a problem, because being cynical doesn't help anyone. Lord knows I wish I could get rid of some of my own; I've certainly got enough to spare. At the end of the day, everyone has room for improvement and should be working towards doing just that. 

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1 hour ago, infrared41 said:

 

Dale Earnhardt was much, much bigger than just a regional superstar. You're too young to remember just how popular the guy was. Dale Sr. was easily the biggest name in NASCAR. He had a ton of national TV spots, endorsements, etc. And he died while NASCAR was still peaking in popularity. NASCAR was huge from the mid 90's thru the early 2000's. Whether they were a NASCAR fan or not back then, everyone knew who Dale Earnhardt was. His death is probably the best 21st century comparison we have to Kobe Bryant. 

 

Well said. The sport has never really been the same without Dale Sr. either.

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1 hour ago, DG_Now said:

I'm already tired of reading earnest Kobe Bryant think pieces.

 

The guy lived his life in front of cameras from 1996 until yesterday. I can't think of much new context or new information we need to determine our feelings on Kobe.

 

I dunno about all that. I read a tweet someone posted yesterday that summed it up better than I’ve seen anywhere else, at least. I sort of wondered why I felt as sad about his death as I did despite disliking him the majority of his career. This nails it, IMO. 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, LuvTheNats said:

 

no that's the right move. The campaign was ill-advised and stupid before there was a major celebrity death, but making light of death to sell Peanuts would look even worse given the current news at the front of everybody's mind. You don't want your brand associated with that. 

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The Clippers-Lakers game on Tuesday has been postponed. 
 

This was a good decision by the league. Both teams don’t have another game until later this week. 

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45 minutes ago, Rockstar Matt said:

The Clippers-Lakers game on Tuesday has been postponed. 
 

This was a good decision by the league. Both teams don’t have another game until later this week. 

Yeah, that's the only game I could imagine them cancelling. 

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I am still baffled by the Mavs' choice to retire #24. He never played for the Mavs and I don't know of any legit connection that makes sense for this. A knee jerk reaction for sure but is this just Cuban capitalizing on an opportunity to get his name out there as some hero?

 

Also, that silly petition to change the logo to Kobe makes no sense. What happens with Jordan dies? What about Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?

 

It's a tragic situation but there is no need to make all these major announcements or pursue major changes so quickly after it happened. Let the mourning happen before taken action. 

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6 hours ago, OnWis97 said:

And while I'm never going to be comfortable in my suspicions that he "got off" I actually kinda think he was able to learn from it and become better for it.  Maybe, while putting his own freedom first, he also understood where she was coming from.  Throw in having several daughters, and I think he might have turned it around some. I of course, don't know, but that feeling has only come about in the last 24 hours.  As I see his dedication to parenthood, the WNBA, etc.  There's a ton of nuance and I'll never pretend to really know what he was about...but in the last 24 hours, this stuff has moved him from "retired superstar" to "complex human" for me.

 

5 hours ago, Bucfan56 said:

 

I dunno about all that. I read a tweet someone posted yesterday that summed it up better than I’ve seen anywhere else, at least. I sort of wondered why I felt as sad about his death as I did despite disliking him the majority of his career. This nails it, IMO.

 

 

 

 

I take it back -- I see what you're saying. I've gone through the whole Kobe experience since 2000, first in awe, then in hate, and finally in appreciation. As a Lakers fan, I followed his post-career closely. But I can see how others' opinions of Kobe stopped in 2006 or so (and I don't mean that as a slight).

 

ESPN is playing Kobe's last game tonight at 6PM PDT. I think I'll have it on, but it's going to be a really tough watch.

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34 minutes ago, phutmasterflex said:

I am still baffled by the Mavs' choice to retire #24. He never played for the Mavs and I don't know of any legit connection that makes sense for this. A knee jerk reaction for sure but is this just Cuban capitalizing on an opportunity to get his name out there as some hero?

 

Also, that silly petition to change the logo to Kobe makes no sense. What happens with Jordan dies? What about Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?

 

It's a tragic situation but there is no need to make all these major announcements or pursue major changes so quickly after it happened. Let the mourning happen before taken action. 

 

So if Kobe was still alive, the Mavs players could still wear 24? If so, that pretty much confirms it's just a reaction to his untimely death. It has to do with that way more than anything Kobe did on the court, imo.

 

It's the first time I've ever seen a team retire the number of another player who never played for them (not counting Gretzky's or any other league-wide # retirement).

 

But 8, his other number, is still available. He did a lot wearing 8 as well. Cuban forgot to retire both numbers.

 

It would get complicated for some teams to be that hero and honor someone like that, if said number is already retired by one of their own players. If something happened to Larry Bird, what if another team already retired 33?

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I don't think the utility of any of this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/27/posts-misguided-suspension-felicia-sonmez-over-kobe-bryant-tweets/

 

Some of it has to be of the variety "Cry you little sportsball babies but did you know your hero WAS A RAPIST????" And that's part of the sentiment I think I was trying to get at; what exactly is the utility of condensing a complicated incident that all parties have moved on from, and distilling Kobe Bryant to yada yada yada sexual assault?

 

Maybe I'm being a sportsball baby, but I doubt John Lennon obits talked about him abandoning his son and beating his wife. Or maybe they did, I don't know.

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A lot of what is being done or proposed is part of the typical knee-jerk reactions we often get when a famous person dies. You see it all the time. I may be cynical, but I think there are many examples. I'm not convinced Roy Halladay is a first ballot Hall of Famer if he doesn't die. I'm not convinced Heath Ledger wins Best Actor if he doesn't die.

 

Same thing here with Kobe. While his death is tragic and definitely far too soon, it doesn't mean people should be tripping over themselves to do things. What is Mark Cuban doing announcing such a ridiculous thing the day that Kobe dies? 

 

I always try to view these things through the lens of: would you do these things if the person was still alive? If Kobe had lived a long life and died of old age, would the Mavericks or any other team ever retire his number? Probably not, so why would you do it just because he died young? Would there be calls to change the logo to Kobe if this hadn't had happened? I don't recall many people pushing that idea prior to today.

 

People need to take time to let horrible events sink in and give the families the space they need to heal, and then down the line find appropriate ways to honor the dead. Jumping to do things before a funeral is even held comes off more as an act of self-interest or self-promotion rather than real respect.

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I'll be honest...watching the replay of Kobe's last game and the pregame ceremony on ESPN is tough.

 

I'm glad they're playing it, but it's just so sad.

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49 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

I don't think the utility of any of this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/27/posts-misguided-suspension-felicia-sonmez-over-kobe-bryant-tweets/

 

Some of it has to be of the variety "Cry you little sportsball babies but did you know your hero WAS A RAPIST????" And that's part of the sentiment I think I was trying to get at; what exactly is the utility of condensing a complicated incident that all parties have moved on from, and distilling Kobe Bryant to yada yada yada sexual assault?

 

Maybe I'm being a sportsball baby, but I doubt John Lennon obits talked about him abandoning his son and beating his wife. Or maybe they did, I don't know.

 

The version of me 20 years ago would have been extremely upset at her for posting and tweeting that, and to some degree I still would.

I get that not everyone is a sports fan, just like I am not really into movies and don't really understand about getting worked up over meeting star actors.

As I pointed out earlier, I don't have issues bringing the rape allegations up. It was part of his life. However, I think he did try to make it up in the aftermath and I can't be upset at him for that, especially considering all the other accusations about other wealthy, powerful people.  

One thing I will admit, I can't bring myself to cry profusely over Kobe's death. I was more devastated over his daughter's death. 

 

 

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