Los Angeles NFL Brands Discussion

[Ridleylash]

5 minutes ago, colortv said:

 

Every major pro league has two successful franchises in LA, there are countless teams in lesser pro and college leagues too.

 

The NFL of all things is not going to be the exception to the rule and fail.

Except it's pretty clear that Los Angeles already has two franchises dear to their heart; the Rams and Raiders. The Chargers aren't drawing fans. Well, okay, they kind of are, but it's not making more LA Chargers fans, it's that they're providing a dirt-cheap way for fans of other teams to go watch their own franchise play the Chargers.

 

LA is, and always has been, a put up or shut up town. If you don't do well at least fairly consistently, people aren't necessarily going to want to spend time and money watching you when they could be doing any number of other things with their time and money.

 

The Rams have made two playoff appearances, one of which was making it to the Super Bowl, since returning to Los Angeles. The Chargers have made all of one playoff appearance since moving to LA, and they only got past the first round in it.

[colortv]

[colortv]

2 minutes ago, Ridleylash said:

Except it's pretty clear that Los Angeles already has two franchises dear to their heart; the Rams and Raiders. The Chargers aren't drawing fans. Well, okay, they kind of are, but it's not making more LA Chargers fans, it's that they're providing a dirt-cheap way for fans of other teams to go watch their own franchise play the Chargers.

 

LA is, and always has been, a put up or shut up town. If you don't do well at least fairly consistently, people aren't necessarily going to want to spend time and money watching you when they could be doing any number of other things with their time and money.

 

The Rams just recently made it to a Super Bowl. The Chargers have made all of one playoff appearance since moving to LA, and they only got past the first round in it.

 

I again point you to the Los Angeles Clippers, who ironically also moved from San Diego.

[Ridleylash]

5 minutes ago, colortv said:

I again point you to the Los Angeles Clippers.

You mean the team that hasn't posted a below .500 winning percentage since a decade ago and made the playoffs 7 out of 8 seasons since then?

[colortv]

Just now, Ridleylash said:

You mean the team that hasn't posted a below .500 winning percentage since a decade ago and made the playoffs 7 out of 8 seasons since then? Hardly a comparison in terms of on-field ineptitude to the Chargers.

 

I'm talking about the 30 years prior to that.

[sky1324]

3 minutes ago, colortv said:

 

I again point you to the Los Angeles Clippers, who ironically also moved from San Diego.

That's... not really irony, but whatever. The Clippers do well because LA is a basketball town. It's not a football town. The Chargers can't draw their own fans for . They're not making any new fans. They've lost just about every single one from San Diego, and they're about to move into a massive stadium that further proves their lack of market penetration.

[colortv]

3 minutes ago, QCS said:

That's... not really irony, but whatever. The Clippers do well because LA is a basketball town. It's not a football town. The Chargers can't draw their own fans for . They're not making any new fans. They've lost just about every single one from San Diego, and they're about to move into a massive stadium that further proves their lack of market penetration.

 

"Los Angeles isn't a football town" is the one of the biggest misnomers in sports. Tell that to USC, UCLA, or the countless high level high school programs across the region.

 

Al Michaels said it best, "There's 20 million people in Southern California(Actually 24 million with SD). What, all of them are going to the beach on Sunday?"

[sky1324]

1 minute ago, colortv said:

 

"Los Angeles isn't a football town" is the one of the biggest misnomers in sports. Tell that to USC, UCLA, or the countless high level high school programs across the region.

 

Al Michaels said it best, "There's 20 million people in Southern California(Actually 24 million with SD). What, all of them are going to the beach on Sunday?"

Then why are the Chargers not drawing their own fans?

 

Oh, and: San Diego does not count for LA's population. You want a team to draw from SD? Put it in SD.

[colortv]

2 minutes ago, QCS said:

Then why are the Chargers not drawing their own fans?

 

The Chargers have been selling out. There are a lot of fans of opposing teams who also want to see them play who are also buying tickets. What about that do people here not understand?

[daniel75]

1 minute ago, QCS said:

Then why are the Chargers not drawing their own fans?

My guess would be cause they're in San Diego.

[colortv]

Ridley and QCS let me illustrate it this way based on your locations:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_metropolitan_area#Combined_Statistical_Area

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe

 

Combined population: Roughly 12 million

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California

 

Population: 24 million.

 

The sheer size of the market will ensure profitability.

[colortv]

3 minutes ago, colortv said:

Ridley and QCS let me illustrate it this way based on your locations:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_metropolitan_area#Combined_Statistical_Area

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe

 

Combined population: Roughly 12 million

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California

 

Population: 24 million.

 

The sheer size of the market will ensure profitability.

 

[Ridleylash]

8 minutes ago, colortv said:

 

Quoting yourself to try and seem cool, real cute.

 

Also, why is the team financially struggling in the Los Angeles market, then? I thought "the size of the market ensured profitability" in Los Angeles? They're not selling PSL's, most of their home games are heavily skewed for the road team in terms of fans...it's not going well, and I think it's pretty damn obvious LA doesn't have what it takes to support more then one NFL franchise.

[colortv]

Let's play a game and see what we need to do to match up to Southern California's size.

 

Since Ice Cap has been so vocal in here, let's throw in the Tampa Bay area. Since we're talking football, let's add Dallas.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_area

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas–Fort_Worth_metroplex

 

That's another 10 million, damn we're still 2 million short. Let's throw Cleveland in there:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area

 

So we have to add the the greater metro areas of: Toronto, Charlotte, Dallas, Tampa, and Cleveland to equate the population of Southern California.

 

It's just numbers, the Chargers will be fine.

 

[colortv]

1 minute ago, colortv said:

Let's play a game and see what we need to do to match up to Southern California's size.

 

Since Ice Cap has been so vocal in here, let's throw in the Tampa Bay area. Since we're talking football, let's add Dallas.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_area

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas–Fort_Worth_metroplex

 

That's another 10 million, damn we're still 2 million short. Let's throw Cleveland in there:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area

 

So we have to add the the greater metro areas of: Toronto, Charlotte, Dallas, Tampa, and Cleveland to equate the population of Southern California.

 

It's just numbers, the Chargers will be fine.

 

 

[Ridleylash]

2 minutes ago, colortv said:

 

Size means nothing if nobody in the market gives a about the Chargers. Quote all the size stats you want, it doesn't change that Los Angeles is not supporting the Chargers. Even the owners have noticed that this is an issue. LA doesn't seem to give much of a rat's ass about the Chargers as a franchise.

 

And constantly quoting your own posts with reaction .gifs isn't exactly helping your cause.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

6 hours ago, colortv said:

7 hours ago, mattr1198 said:

The Jets and Giants are probably the only complement in the NY sports landscape where the teams are just about equal in terms of popularity. The Yankees, Knicks, and Rangers are clearly more popular than the Mets, Nets, and Isles, but I know pretty much just as many Jets fans as I do Giants fans and the Jets had better attendance this year (it kind of flip-flops).

 

That's quite surprising, I thought the Giants were a firm #1 over the Jets. Not too familiar with the intricacies of the market though.

 

The Giants and Jets may share the City itself on a kind of 60/40 basis; but each team dominates different sections of the metro area. North Jersey is Giants country and Long Island is Jets country. Even then, finding Giant fans on Long Island is a lot easier than finding Jet fans in Jersey. (Though one such Jersey-based Jet fan is my cousin, on account of her having swooned for Joe Namath.)

 

In Connecticut the Jets don't exist; the question there is whether you are a Giant fan or a Patriot fan.

 

There's no way the Giants and Jets are equal in terms of popularity.  The Giants are clearly the dominant entity, though their dominance over the Jets is not as great as the Knicks' dominance over the Nets, whose fanbase is negligible. However, this advantage is significantly greater than the Yankees' dominance over the Mets, who have a large and devoted fanbase that spans the whole metro area.

 

 

Aaanyway, I am pleased to see that other people are getting on board with the idea that the Chargers are most likely destined to return to San Diego.

 

@oldschoolvikings- No one will be "yanking" the team away from Spanos; the other owners will just use good old-fashioned persuasion to convince him to sell.

 

The issue is not really the team's profitability, as the NFL's revenue-sharing scheme ensures that all teams make money. The issue is that every Chargers home game is a guaranteed bad-publicity generator. This phenomenon was bad enough at the Galaxy's park; it will only be worse in the new stadium. This harms the brand image of the entire league, and will not be tolerated indefinitely.

 

 

@doctorpeligro- @Gothamiteis probably being too kind to the Chargers by saying that they are the 5th or 6th most popular NFL team in L.A., just as the Nets are, at best, the 4th most popular NBA team in New York City (even in the borough of Brooklyn). There are way more Celtic fans and Laker fans in New York (and in the Nets' home borough) than there are Net fans; likewise, L.A. certainly has a great deal more fans of the Dallas Cowboys and of several other teams than fans of the Chargers.

[colortv]

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

The Giants and Jets may share the City itself on a kind of 60/40 basis; but each team dominates different sections of the metro area. North Jersey is Giants country and Long Island is Jets country. Even then, finding Giant fans on Long Island is a lot easier than finding Jet fans in Jersey. (Though one such Jersey-based Jet fan is my cousin, on account of her having swooned for Joe Namath.)

 

In Connecticut the Jets don't exist; the question there is whether you are a Giant fan or a Patriot fan.

 

There's no way the Giants and Jets are equal in terms of popularity.  The Giants are clearly the dominant entity, though their dominance over the Jets is not as great as the Knicks' dominance over the Nets, whose fanbase is negligible. However, this advantage is significantly greater than the Yankees' dominance over the Mets, who have a large and devoted fanbase that spans the whole metro area.

 

 

Aaanyway, I am pleased to see that other people are getting on board with the idea that the Chargers are most likely destined to return to San Diego.

 

@oldschoolvikings- No one will be "yanking" the team away from Spanos; the other owners will just use good old-fashioned persuasion to convince him to sell.

 

The issue is not really the team's profitability, as the NFL's revenue-sharing scheme ensures that all teams make money. The issue is that every Chargers home game is a guaranteed bad-publicity generator. This phenomenon was bad enough at the Galaxy's park; it will only be worse in the new stadium. This harms the brand image of the entire league, and will not be tolerated indefinitely.

 

 

@doctorpeligro- @Gothamiteis probably being too kind to the Chargers by saying that they are the 5th or 6th most popular NFL team in L.A., just as the Nets are, at best, the 4th most popular NBA team in New York City (even in the borough of Brooklyn). There are way more Celtic fans and Laker fans in New York (and in the Nets' home borough) than there are Net fans; likewise, L.A. certainly has a great deal more fans of the Dallas Cowboys and of several other teams than fans of the Chargers.

 

This is completely detached from reality as I've explained to you before. 

[Pharos04]

Is this STILL going on?

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, colortv said:

Since Ice Cap has been so vocal in here

I had no idea I had free rent in your head. I'll have to see if I sublet that out.

 

1 hour ago, colortv said:

let's throw in the Tampa Bay area

The Bucs have more fans in their stadium on average per gameday then the Chargers have had since moving to LA.

 

I want you to listen to this, because it's important. Market size is meaningless, it's the fanbase that counts. The current Winnipeg Jets in the NHL started off life as the Atlanta Thrashers.

Atlanta's metro area has a population of 5,949,951. Winnipeg's metro area has a population of 778,489. It doesn't even break a million, and Atlanta is pushing six million! Know what though? The Jets have, since moving from Atlanta to Winnipeg, made more money, sold more merch, and have risen in franchise value. Now why is that? Well Atlanta may dwarf Winnipeg in terms of population and even wealth, but Winnipeg? Winnipeg has more hockey fans in those 778,489 than Atlanta does in their 5,949,951.

 

So yes. LA is huge. Yes, LA has the sheer population needed to support two NFL teams. That doesn't mean the Chargers will be a success though, because all 18,679,763 people of greater LA means nothing if not enough of them are Chargers fans. I know there are enough Rams fans in that group. And enough Raiders fans. Not enough Chargers fans though.

 

1 hour ago, colortv said:

 

The Chargers have been selling out. There are a lot of fans of opposing teams who also want to see them play who are also buying tickets. What about that do people here not understand?

That's all well and good, but you want it both ways.

On one hand you claim that the Chargers will present a family friendly venue that will attract families and that fans from San Diego will come up for the games. On the other hand you claim that the Chargers will be just fine if they sell the vast majority of their tickets to visiting team fans because their money's as good as anyone else's.

 

You can either have the Chargers who are building their own niche in LA or the Chargers surviving off of the ability of road fans to swarm the stadium, but you can't have both. I'd ask you which you'd prefer, but that's irrelevant. Observable reality has shown us it's the latter.

 

 

2 hours ago, colortv said:

The NFL of all things is not going to be the exception to the rule and fail.

I truly believe two LA teams can succeed. The problems are...

1) They rushed both to market. LA needed to be handled delicately after so long without NFL football. The Rams were the best choice to go first, but they really needed to wait five years or so before moving another team in.

 

2) They chose the wrong team. The Chargers NEVER had much of a following in LA. Certainly not as much as the Raiders had, and continue to have. The Raiders should have been that second team. They have a built-in fanbase that remained loyal even after they moved back to Oakland, meaning you could afford to wait five years to move them back. The LA Raiders faithful aren't going anywhere and won't be won over by the Rams in the interim.

It was the height of the NFL's arrogance that they felt ANY two LA teams would do. Again, the Rams were a smart choice (one Goodell fought against, but still) but the Chargers were always going to be a mess. Again, the Chargers have sold $50 million in PSLs compared to $500 million worth for the Rams. In the same G-ddamn stadium. Puts a damper on your "the Chargers will be fine once they get into a bigger building" argument.