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Washington NFL Franchise Retires Name and Logo

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10 minutes ago, disman00911 said:

(What about the Natives who are NOT offended by such sports mascot/names or simply don't care about this issue one way or the other?)

 

Pretty sure the team went with the majority opinion of the "Natives" on that one.

 

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However, I do have concern over a slippery slope over renaming certain teams.

 

The slippery slope is a fallacy. When Washington changes its name, all that will happen is Washington changed its name. It is not the first step towards renaming the Dolphins because some Marine Biologist claims that Dolphins told him they had a problem with the name.

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1 hour ago, IceCap said:

DC's subway system IS top notch though. 

 

The Metro sucks. Every station is identical ugly Brutalism, it shuts down at like 11, and the point-to-point pricing structure is byzantine and incalculable. It's nice that the cars seem to be devoid of Aspiring Rappers, but then as you roll up to the stop for the Pentagon, you realize that if there were Aspiring Rappers on the Metro, they would probably get blacksited. I have never been less happy to use public transit than on the Metro.

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4 hours ago, CherryMX said:

Also regarding "Founders:"  That is also the term of when an animal eats too much, to the point where its stomach bursts and the creature dies.

 

Oh, the National Football League

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8 minutes ago, disman00911 said:

I noticed that the discussion on the front page was disabled as this issue over the Washington Redskins and their name can get ugly (on both sides on this issue).  Chris made a good article about the history of the Redskins controversy recently.  There’s another old but interesting webpage about the Native mascot controversy and of course the Fighting Whities, which was a satirical and creative take on this issue.

 

I must admit that I can't get used to a Washington DC football team NOT named the Redskins.  Sure, Daniel Snyder is a terrible sports owner but why was the sports/news media act like he's the one that named the team what it is?  That being said, I would be okay if Washington rebranded if Snyder agreed to relinquish ownership of the team. Him still being owner of the team is more offensive than "Redskins" to me as he is one of the worst owners in sports. Washington getting new ownership should had been a higher priority and let the new ownership change the name. (yeah, yeah I know some of you would say "Why not both") Snyder is a weaselly owner who only changing the name because of the corporate pressure, not because whether it is the right thing to do or from request from Native American activist groups who take issue with the team name (What about the Natives who are NOT offended by such sports mascot/names or simply don't care about this issue one way or the other?). Seven years ago, Snyder vowed he would not change the team's name.  Well, money talks and he's a serial liar.

 

The name change is coming but why is Washington dropping the classic Indian head logo?  I thought the "Redskin" name was the issue, not the logo. It's not that Washington's now-former logo was Chief Wahoo or anything. (with MLB's Cleveland Indians, it was the opposite with Chief Wahoo as the hot button issue rather than the team's name).  The man who designed the old Redskins logo was a Native American (I did not know that until recently).  While the Washington franchise was last to racially integrate its players (the owner at the time, George Marshall, was ultra-racist), weren't the Redskins the first NFL team to win a Super Bowl with a Black QB decades later?  Doug Williams won a Super Bowl as a Washington Redskin (not as a Redtail, Renegade, Warrior, Hog, Pigskin, Potato Skin, Swamp Politician, or so on).  What's going to happen regarding old broadcasts?  No more throwback options on Madden?  Overall, a shaky history regarding cultural sensitivity. They better at least keep the colors (burgundy/gold).  We don’t need another R/W/B team just to match the other Washington teams (Nationals, Capitals, and Wizards).

 

These corporations like Nike and Amazon had no problem selling Redskins/Indians/etc merchandise for DECADES and yet suddenly I'm supposed to believe they are all offended somehow?  I remember the declaration that "Corporations were NOT People!"  At least I respect the opinions of people who opposed Native-theme sports logos (such as Uni-Watch's Paul Lukas) for at least being consistent and sincere on what they believe in.  These corporations could care less about the Native people (the same can be applied about these sports teams as well).  However, I do have concern over a slippery slope over renaming certain teams.  Yale university is currently in hot water over its name after its founder, who was a slave trader. A Washington Post opinion piece is even calling for the Texas Rangers MLB team to change its name!  I could go further and thought of some over-the-top politically correct scenarios over sport team names being forced to change, but I don't want to get in trouble with the moderators and the last thing we need is a flame war (not that I want to start one anyway).

 

Finally, the Navajo Nation, a Native American tribe from Arizona who opposed the “Redskins” name, have suggested that the team could used the name “Code Talkers”.  Snyder could had kept the logo but swap “Redskins” for “Code Talkers”.  Better yet, Snyder should sell the ownership of the team to a wealthy member of the tribe.   Since the name change is now a done deal, “Renegades” is my favorite choice for the team as I am not feeling "Red Wolves" or "Warriors". The choice the Navajo Nation suggested wouldn’t be too bad since they are okay with it.  On a side note, aren’t there a few Native American high schools with the name “Redskins”.  Here’s a 2014 Yahoo article about an Arizona Navajo high school with the “Redskins” name.  Since Washington’s NFL team is now dropping the name, shouldn’t these schools follow suit?

(Parts bolded by me for emphasis)

 

1. That says a ton about you, given the team's former nickname is a slur that should be censored like the n-word and f-word (the slur for gay people, not the other f-word) are. I agree that Synder is a terrible owner but the fact is that the name should've been changed 40+ years ago, not in the 21st century. 

 

2. Who cares why he's doing it, the truth is any reason to change it is a good thing. The name was derogatory, offensive, and wrong, on all counts. 

 

3. The name and logo are inextricably tied together. Keeping the logo would be just as harmful. Any Native imagery appropriated is too much, which is why other teams like Cleveland AL and Atlanta NL need to look at how they use things like tomahawks and headdresses.

 

4. Great for them, but it has nothing to do with how they treated Native Americans.

 

5. Yeah, so those broadcasts/news clippings/whatever need to be presented with context on how the name was wrong then and is wrong now.

 

6. I hope so, or at least the removal of any logos/wordmarks related to the former name.

 

7. They are.

 

8. They're not, but they do have a financial interest in this. Again, despite the fact that this change is only happening because of the financial implications, it's still a great thing.

 

9. There was a post on this thread a while back that detailed why slippery slopes are inherently fallacious argument. You should take a look.

 

10. As long as Native imagery is used, this is a no-go. Many people more knowledgable than I have explained why that is.

 

11. Yes, absolutely.

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Just now, the admiral said:

 

The Metro sucks. Every station is identical ugly Brutalism, it shuts down at like 11, and the point-to-point pricing structure is byzantine and incalculable. It's nice that the cars seem to be devoid of Aspiring Rappers, but then as you roll up to the stop for the Pentagon, you realize that if there were Aspiring Rappers on the Metro, they would probably get blacksited. I have never been less happy to use public transit than on the Metro.

 

You seem to have lived everywhere. Like anytime someone brings up a regional/local thing, you always seem to come in understanding the reference or having lived the experience.

 

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I visited DC in the fall and got trapped in the Metro because I accidentally fare-jumped on the way in. I'm still bitter about the experience.

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On 7/14/2020 at 4:57 PM, CherryMX said:

Not to target anyone specifically or be provacative (quite the opposite), but when it comes to making a case regarding Native American/First Nations/etc imagery in sports, please be aware of what the Slippery Slope fallacy is and how it, as a fallacy, is by definition an unsound argument. 

 

3wp69mi.png

 

 

If mods feel like this post is more harmful than helpful, feel free to edit.  Not trying to stir the pot at all, just trying to educate.


Just re-iterating for anyone who may need to read it. 

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I really think we should lock this thread until a name finally gets chosen. We’ve already shown that we can’t be trusted to follow the rules on this issue and is causing too many suspensions. I’ve tried to just avoid commenting on here other than a few here or there and feel fear every time that a mod might take it the wrong way and get suspended for it. 

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11 minutes ago, QCS said:

10. As long as Native imagery is used, this is a no-go. Many people more knowledgable than I have explained why that is.

Read a story yesterday that a Native American designed the current logo and his son is disappointed it's going away. 

 

FWIW.

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2 minutes ago, rjrrzube said:

Read a story yesterday that a Native American designed the current logo and his son is disappointed it's going away. 

 

FWIW.

I read that as well! However, while he personally may be disappointed that it's going away, I would be willing to bet that there are plenty more Native Americans that are incredibly happy it's going away. It's another example that no group is monolithic and there's always nuance to topics, especially difficult ones like race issues. 

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21 minutes ago, QCS said:

[Snipped by me, this point is in reference to if a Navajo high school using the name Redskins should change]

 

11. Yes, absolutely.

 

I don't know where I stand on this, because the name is being used by a group of people who it is offensive towards. I want to view it as similar to black people taking back the n-word or the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame. Taking a word historically used against them and turning it into a word of pride and comradery (Though I know there are issues people take up with both of my examples, some more than others). I do think if a Navajo high school is fine with using Redskins, they should be allowed too.

 

An example, the only Midget AAA hockey team in Canada that is run by and located on a First Nations reserve, though that program was just eliminated at the conclusion of this past season as part of Saskatchewan hockey restructuring, are called the Blackhawks and use the Blackhawks logo.

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3 minutes ago, rjrrzube said:

Read a story yesterday that a Native American designed the current logo and his son is disappointed it's going away. 

 

FWIW.

Yeah. Many Native Americans aren’t personally offended by the name. That guy specifically has a definite reason to support the current name and logo, but different people think otherwise. Ultimately this is the franchise’s only option moving forward. And our purpose here is to throw out and compare ideas for new names, not to debate opinions on whether the change should be happening in the first place. 

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5 hours ago, Wackyriderfan14 said:

Washington RedGolds

 

Washington Yellow Maroons

 

#fixed

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5 hours ago, LMU said:

I think that one of the problems with the proposed names floating around is that Washington is always seen more macro than micro with everything being capital or military-focused.  Why not go for something that actually reflects the history of the culture of the city itself and not those hired or elected to move in?

 

I don't love the color scheme or the Third Reich vibes of the logo, but I have liked that DC United has done this. The eagle and the name are nods to the cliche rah-rah Americanness, but they've utilized the DC flag (one of the better city flags!) to good effect many times over.

 

kinda similar with the Wizards' G-League team, there are many things I don't love about the identity but Capital City Go-Go does well to target the local market and not the national image of DC.

 

Obviously neither of those would work for the Ex-skins, for many reasons. Regardless of what happens on the stadium front, even if they move to a new future RFK, I don't know that they're a team of the city as such, especially not as long as they exist (and specifically play) one of the most suburby markets there is, but the point is there doesn't need to be any reason to keep leaning toward stars-and-stripes stuff.

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7 hours ago, infrared41 said:

I wasn't "handwaving" away the NCAI and I never said it isn't legitimate. In fact, I said I wasn't knocking it. My point was that the NCAI isn't the be all end all voice on NA issues. That's all.


I’m sorry, I really didn’t mean it to sound like that. 
 

You’re right, the NCAI is not the end-all.  But it does seem to be the closest thing we’re going to get to a consensus from the First Nations community. 

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41 minutes ago, QCS said:

5. Yeah, so those broadcasts/news clippings/whatever need to be presented with context on how the name was wrong then and is wrong now.

Gonna break from the mould and disagree on this point specifically, as well as the related point that all instances of the Redskins' logo in the HoF need a disclaimer. Not at all.

I've never been to the football HoF, but I've been to the hockey HoF more times than I can count. There are tons of old, outdated logos on display there. Hell, I think the hockey HoF was where I first became aware of the Windsor Swastikas, which is another logo/name that you're not going to see today.

 

Again, I've never been to the football HoF so I'm not sure how it's structured, but let's say they have Darrell Green's helmet on display. I don't think they need a disclaimer next to it explaining the logo or attempting to shame Dan Snyder. It's just an old logo/name for a team. HoFs are full of that stuff.

Nor do you need to edit old broadcasts.

 

As for modern broadcasts? Just refer to the team as "Washington" if you're talking about it in a historical context, or showing old clips. Again, the old logo's going to be there but old sports footage is filled with old logos that are no longer used.

 

Now if the football HoF wanted to have a dedicated exhibit that focused on Native-themed names, exploring how many of those names have seen as offensive, and how the sport has moved on by eliminated the problematic ones and getting tribal permissions for the rest then by all means. I'd be 100% on board with that.

Disclaimers every time you have a picture of a Washington player though? Nah sorry. That seems ridiculous.

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37 minutes ago, dont care said:

I really think we should lock this thread until a name finally gets chosen. We’ve already shown that we can’t be trusted to follow the rules on this issue and is causing too many suspensions. I’ve tried to just avoid commenting on here other than a few here or there and feel fear every time that a mod might take it the wrong way and get suspended for it. 

Please keep it open as long as it isn't too much work to do so. If individuals can't help themselves, too bad. I'd like us to have this nice thing.

 

I think the mods have done well so far. [Hat tip]

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8 minutes ago, Gothamite said:


You’re right, the NCAI is not the end-all.  But it does seem to be the closest thing we’re going to get to a consensus from the First Nations community. 

 

I'm going to have to ask that the NCAI talk stop. The reason is that the NCAI is the body that declared that all Native-themed sports logos and names had to go. As such we can't truly delve into the NCAI's stance without discussing teams other than the Washington NFL team. That would be outside of what we want this discussion to be, which is clearly focused on the Washington team, their old name of "Redskins," and speculation as to what they may be called in the near future. Talking about other teams outside of the need to provide context will only serve to derail the thread.

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No worries :) thanks for understanding. The last few days have been intense from a moderating perspective, as you can probably tell.

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