Sebastianm

Next city to get an NFL team

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1 hour ago, Red Comet said:

 

With the issues the CFL had this year, I'm wondering how long there would be a Canadian game to protect.

 

Unlikely to be soon, but I wonder how much damage cancelling the season will have long-term?

 

I find it interesting that they weren't able to play but the CPL was able to and the CFL has been around longer than the CPL.  

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1 hour ago, colortv said:

Why?

I know this will be hard for some people to understand but the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. And they wouldn't be in Toronto! Hockey and baseball have a more established history there, and the Raptors' NBA Championship is still fresh in people's minds. 

 

"Surely the NFL can overcome that!" you say. Except the evidence isn't there to support that. Again, the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. 

The NFL tried in Toronto. Really tried. The Bills' Toronto series was pushed HARD. How hard you may ask? I was living in London, Ontario at the time (three hours out from Toronto) and you couldn't escape the marketing. So I can only imagine the marketing blitz the city itself got. 

What did it amount to? A Rogers Centre that wasn't even filled to capacity. And the Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards. 

So there's no evidence the team would be a draw. In fact evidence suggests it would be middling for the market and near the bottom (if not the bottom) for the NFL long-term. 

 

The Rogers Centre brings up the second reason it wouldn't work. The Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards, and wouldn't be a viable solution. It would be suitable as a short term venue while a new stadium was built, but even that is out the window. 

The Toronto Argonauts, the CFL team, recently left Rogers to play at an expanded BMO Field across the street. This was done so the Blue Jays could install real grass in Rogers. Converting Rogers from baseball to football isn't the easy thing it used to be, and the Jays would SO not go for it after finally getting the place to themselves. 

 

Related to Rogers Centre...point three of why the NFL shouldn't go to Toronto. There's no NFL-caliber stadium in the city, and no will to build one. 

BMO Field was the last stadium the City of Toronto paid for, and that's going to be it for the foreseeable future. Not to say that Canadian locales are above paying for billionaires' pet projects, because events in Edmonton and Calgary prove we can stoop that low.

Thing is...those were hockey arenas. Meaning they're cheaper than the football palaces modern NFL stadiums have become and they were for teams in a sport that is practically a cultural institution in Canada. Which American football isn't (hell, Canadian football isn't).

The City of Toronto/Province of Ontario isn't going to pull a Las Vegas/Nevada and pour 700+ million into a football stadium. So short of finding a Kroenke style billionaire who's willing to fund it on his own dime (and pay Canadian taxes on top of that)? It's just not happening. 

 

Point four. I'm not an Argos fan (go Ti-Cats!) but the Toronto Argonauts are older than every other team in the NFL. They're among the oldest continuous sports franchises in the world. Not only that, they anchor the CFL financially. Toronto is the economic centre of Canada and its largest city. Merely having Toronto in the CFL makes it viable to advertisers. 

There is a very real chance that a NFL team in Toronto could kill the Argos, and a very real chance that killing the Argos kills the CFL. And it's a very real possibility that without the CFL the Canadian version of the game dies. 

I'm not willing to sacrifice a team with the history of the Argos, or the CFL, or the Canadian version of the game for some middling NFL franchise the market doesn't need and metrics indicate it doesn't want. 

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23 hours ago, IceCap said:

I know this will be hard for some people to understand but the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. And they wouldn't be in Toronto! Hockey and baseball have a more established history there, and the Raptors' NBA Championship is still fresh in people's minds. 

 

"Surely the NFL can overcome that!" you say. Except the evidence isn't there to support that. Again, the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. 

The NFL tried in Toronto. Really tried. The Bills' Toronto series was pushed HARD. How hard you may ask? I was living in London, Ontario at the time (three hours out from Toronto) and you couldn't escape the marketing. So I can only imagine the marketing blitz the city itself got. 

What did it amount to? A Rogers Centre that wasn't even filled to capacity. And the Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards. 

So there's no evidence the team would be a draw. In fact evidence suggests it would be middling for the market and near the bottom (if not the bottom) for the NFL long-term. 

 

The Rogers Centre brings up the second reason it wouldn't work. The Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards, and wouldn't be a viable solution. It would be suitable as a short term venue while a new stadium was built, but even that is out the window. 

The Toronto Argonauts, the CFL team, recently left Rogers to play at an expanded BMO Field across the street. This was done so the Blue Jays could install real grass in Rogers. Converting Rogers from baseball to football isn't the easy thing it used to be, and the Jays would SO not go for it after finally getting the place to themselves. 

 

Related to Rogers Centre...point three of why the NFL shouldn't go to Toronto. There's no NFL-caliber stadium in the city, and no will to build one. 

BMO Field was the last stadium the City of Toronto paid for, and that's going to be it for the foreseeable future. Not to say that Canadian locales are above paying for billionaires' pet projects, because events in Edmonton and Calgary prove we can stoop that low.

Thing is...those were hockey arenas. Meaning they're cheaper than the football palaces modern NFL stadiums have become and they were for teams in a sport that is practically a cultural institution in Canada. Which American football isn't (hell, Canadian football isn't).

The City of Toronto/Province of Ontario isn't going to pull a Las Vegas/Nevada and pour 700+ million into a football stadium. So short of finding a Kroenke style billionaire who's willing to fund it on his own dime (and pay Canadian taxes on top of that)? It's just not happening. 

 

Point four. I'm not an Argos fan (go Ti-Cats!) but the Toronto Argonauts are older than every other team in the NFL. They're among the oldest continuous sports franchises in the world. Not only that, they anchor the CFL financially. Toronto is the economic centre of Canada and its largest city. Merely having Toronto in the CFL makes it viable to advertisers. 

There is a very real chance that a NFL team in Toronto could kill the Argos, and a very real chance that killing the Argos kills the CFL. And it's a very real possibility that without the CFL the Canadian version of the game dies. 

I'm not willing to sacrifice a team with the history of the Argos, or the CFL, or the Canadian version of the game for some middling NFL franchise the market doesn't need and metrics indicate it doesn't want. 

Ignoring the ti-cats bit(go argos), all this.

 

The day that I move back to Buffalo? I'm getting Argos seasons and not even thinking Bills. The CFL is a treasure worth protecting and Toronto is key to that. And honestly? Toronto doesnt have the best fanbase but, like you said, the mere presence of Toronto in the league makes everything more valuable.

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4 minutes ago, _J_ said:

The day that I move back to Buffalo

late-era Goo Goo Dolls song, I think

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23 hours ago, IceCap said:

I know this will be hard for some people to understand but the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. And they wouldn't be in Toronto! Hockey and baseball have a more established history there, and the Raptors' NBA Championship is still fresh in people's minds. 

 

"Surely the NFL can overcome that!" you say. Except the evidence isn't there to support that. Again, the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. 

The NFL tried in Toronto. Really tried. The Bills' Toronto series was pushed HARD. How hard you may ask? I was living in London, Ontario at the time (three hours out from Toronto) and you couldn't escape the marketing. So I can only imagine the marketing blitz the city itself got. 

What did it amount to? A Rogers Centre that wasn't even filled to capacity. And the Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards. 

So there's no evidence the team would be a draw. In fact evidence suggests it would be middling for the market and near the bottom (if not the bottom) for the NFL long-term. 

 

The Rogers Centre brings up the second reason it wouldn't work. The Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards, and wouldn't be a viable solution. It would be suitable as a short term venue while a new stadium was built, but even that is out the window. 

The Toronto Argonauts, the CFL team, recently left Rogers to play at an expanded BMO Field across the street. This was done so the Blue Jays could install real grass in Rogers. Converting Rogers from baseball to football isn't the easy thing it used to be, and the Jays would SO not go for it after finally getting the place to themselves. 

 

Related to Rogers Centre...point three of why the NFL shouldn't go to Toronto. There's no NFL-caliber stadium in the city, and no will to build one. 

BMO Field was the last stadium the City of Toronto paid for, and that's going to be it for the foreseeable future. Not to say that Canadian locales are above paying for billionaires' pet projects, because events in Edmonton and Calgary prove we can stoop that low.

Thing is...those were hockey arenas. Meaning they're cheaper than the football palaces modern NFL stadiums have become and they were for teams in a sport that is practically a cultural institution in Canada. Which American football isn't (hell, Canadian football isn't).

The City of Toronto/Province of Ontario isn't going to pull a Las Vegas/Nevada and pour 700+ million into a football stadium. So short of finding a Kroenke style billionaire who's willing to fund it on his own dime (and pay Canadian taxes on top of that)? It's just not happening. 

 

Point four. I'm not an Argos fan (go Ti-Cats!) but the Toronto Argonauts are older than every other team in the NFL. They're among the oldest continuous sports franchises in the world. Not only that, they anchor the CFL financially. Toronto is the economic centre of Canada and its largest city. Merely having Toronto in the CFL makes it viable to advertisers. 

There is a very real chance that a NFL team in Toronto could kill the Argos, and a very real chance that killing the Argos kills the CFL. And it's a very real possibility that without the CFL the Canadian version of the game dies. 

I'm not willing to sacrifice a team with the history of the Argos, or the CFL, or the Canadian version of the game for some middling NFL franchise the market doesn't need and metrics indicate it doesn't want. 

Seconded. The NFL can kiss my ass replica ring and 17 Grey Cup Championships.
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Forgot to mention. 
 

Canadian football>American football

 

yes I know nfl has better players, but the Canadian game is still a better game. 

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I can't get behind two downs and a punt. The rhythm is all wrong. It's two-strikes-you're-out.

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On 9/29/2020 at 11:49 AM, IceCap said:

I know this will be hard for some people to understand but the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. And they wouldn't be in Toronto! Hockey and baseball have a more established history there, and the Raptors' NBA Championship is still fresh in people's minds. 

 

"Surely the NFL can overcome that!" you say. Except the evidence isn't there to support that. Again, the NFL is not the be-all-end-all of sports. 

The NFL tried in Toronto. Really tried. The Bills' Toronto series was pushed HARD. How hard you may ask? I was living in London, Ontario at the time (three hours out from Toronto) and you couldn't escape the marketing. So I can only imagine the marketing blitz the city itself got. 

What did it amount to? A Rogers Centre that wasn't even filled to capacity. And the Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards. 

So there's no evidence the team would be a draw. In fact evidence suggests it would be middling for the market and near the bottom (if not the bottom) for the NFL long-term. 

 

The Rogers Centre brings up the second reason it wouldn't work. The Rogers Centre is small by NFL standards, and wouldn't be a viable solution. It would be suitable as a short term venue while a new stadium was built, but even that is out the window. 

The Toronto Argonauts, the CFL team, recently left Rogers to play at an expanded BMO Field across the street. This was done so the Blue Jays could install real grass in Rogers. Converting Rogers from baseball to football isn't the easy thing it used to be, and the Jays would SO not go for it after finally getting the place to themselves. 

 

Related to Rogers Centre...point three of why the NFL shouldn't go to Toronto. There's no NFL-caliber stadium in the city, and no will to build one. 

BMO Field was the last stadium the City of Toronto paid for, and that's going to be it for the foreseeable future. Not to say that Canadian locales are above paying for billionaires' pet projects, because events in Edmonton and Calgary prove we can stoop that low.

Thing is...those were hockey arenas. Meaning they're cheaper than the football palaces modern NFL stadiums have become and they were for teams in a sport that is practically a cultural institution in Canada. Which American football isn't (hell, Canadian football isn't).

The City of Toronto/Province of Ontario isn't going to pull a Las Vegas/Nevada and pour 700+ million into a football stadium. So short of finding a Kroenke style billionaire who's willing to fund it on his own dime (and pay Canadian taxes on top of that)? It's just not happening. 

 

Point four. I'm not an Argos fan (go Ti-Cats!) but the Toronto Argonauts are older than every other team in the NFL. They're among the oldest continuous sports franchises in the world. Not only that, they anchor the CFL financially. Toronto is the economic centre of Canada and its largest city. Merely having Toronto in the CFL makes it viable to advertisers. 

There is a very real chance that a NFL team in Toronto could kill the Argos, and a very real chance that killing the Argos kills the CFL. And it's a very real possibility that without the CFL the Canadian version of the game dies. 

I'm not willing to sacrifice a team with the history of the Argos, or the CFL, or the Canadian version of the game for some middling NFL franchise the market doesn't need and metrics indicate it doesn't want. 

I'm not wishing this, because there's no reason to do so, BUT, if the CFL failed (whether due to 2020 or any other reason), would your stance change? Addressing your other points, do you think a Toronto NFL could work?

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Rogers is squandering a golden opportunity to install natural grass in the SkyDome with the Argos moved out and the Blue Jays quarantined in Buffalo.

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2 hours ago, Sec19Row53 said:

I'm not wishing this, because there's no reason to do so, BUT, if the CFL failed (whether due to 2020 or any other reason), would your stance change? Addressing your other points, do you think a Toronto NFL could work?

Probably not. The CFL going under doesn't cause a NFL-calibre stadium to spontaneously build itself, and the CFL had nothing to do with the Bills drawing poorly. 

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40 minutes ago, IceCap said:

Probably not. The CFL going under doesn't cause a NFL-calibre stadium to spontaneously build itself, and the CFL had nothing to do with the Bills drawing poorly. 

 

The NFL should just leave Canada alone.

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9 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

The United States should just leave Canada alone.

Fixed it for my Canadian friends. I'm sure this is how they all feel.

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Look. We like you guys. Hell, I live here now. 

 

Still, sometimes we gotta do our own things. You NFL hosers gotta know when "no, thank you" means "I'd rather not, eh?" 

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Given the pandemic, it's obviously going to be some time before anyone puts resources into exploring a new stadium.  Further, we'll have to see how things shake out with the younger generations not really following sports like us oldsters and a lot people just Quitting sports for political reasons. If anything, I see the next huge move in one of the big 3/4/5 (depending on your take on the NHL and MLS) being contraction.

 

There's no NFL-ready stadium in need of a team and we're a long ways from major headway occurring in that direction.

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1 hour ago, OnWis97 said:

If anything, I see the next huge move in one of the big 3/4/5 (depending on your take on the NHL and MLS) being contraction.

I would love to hear someone's take on not including the NHL with the other Big 3

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Well, it has a much smaller national TV deal than the other three, and there are large swaths of the country where the league isn't on most people's radar. It's a regional league wearing a David Byrne Stop Making Sense suit. Fortunately for them, the region is the Northeast, which has the highest density and is where the media lives (though most actual Media Types recoil at the thought of hockey).

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On 9/30/2020 at 8:54 PM, IceCap said:

Probably not. The CFL going under doesn't cause a NFL-calibre stadium to spontaneously build itself, and the CFL had nothing to do with the Bills drawing poorly. 

 

9 hours ago, IceCap said:

Look. We like you guys. Hell, I live here now. 

 

Still, sometimes we gotta do our own things. You NFL hosers gotta know when "no, thank you" means "I'd rather not, eh?" 

 

If you're going to live in the most stereotypically American state you're going to have to start swapping your e's and r's. Make sure to leave the u's up north as well. And remember that we like the month before the date (Canadians do the day-month-year format right?). I'm running out of terrible jokes that aren't jokes. Umm.... use miles you... Socialist? Everything is Socialist, right?

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The date thing blows my mind.  Thats just sheer American defiance.  Small-Medium-Large (dd/mm/yy) just makes too much sense.  I hate when I'm anywhere else in the world and get confused when I see a date because we do things differently just because.

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, BBTV said:

The date thing blows my mind.  Thats just sheer American defiance.  Small-Medium-Large (dd/mm/yy) just makes too much sense.  I hate when I'm anywhere else in the world and get confused when I see a date because we do things differently just because.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I think the opposite makes even more sense where some places go Year-Month-Date so that it's narrowing down rather than expanding. Though I suppose it's not usually necessary to reference the year. Also, I just tried to google why we do it this way and the first article I got basically said, "hell if we know," and I refuse to do further research. I definitely think somebody wrote it the wrong way once and instead of admitting their mistake decided to double down and ruin everything for everybody else. Now that's America.

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