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On 11/1/2020 at 11:46 AM, the admiral said:

Honestly I'd take my chance with America's dog-brained attention span and lie low for a few more weeks, even odds everyone stops fighting the culture war once they have real power back and you can just go on being the Indians without Chief Wahoo.

I have felt like the Cleveland Indians have never been the same without Wahoo.  At least the Braves when they let go of the noca homa logo they still had the tomohawk on the jerseys that clearly identifies themselves as the Braves.  The indians have no logo at all besides a bland block C.  Its time to change the name and I am in favor of the Spiders.  Black and silver would be a great combo if it were not for the Chicago White Sox already claiming it.  They might have to get a little creative on some colors.  

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44 minutes ago, beachperroAZ said:

I have felt like the Cleveland Indians have never been the same without Wahoo.  At least the Braves when they let go of the noca homa logo they still had the tomohawk on the jerseys that clearly identifies themselves as the Braves.  The indians have no logo at all besides a bland block C.  Its time to change the name and I am in favor of the Spiders.  Black and silver would be a great combo if it were not for the Chicago White Sox already claiming it.  They might have to get a little creative on some colors.  

Even if they change the name, I don't think they change colors. Navy and red works for "Spiders" and the only reason to change would be to appease those who say there are too many teams with navy and red. The organization isn't going to base their decision on that.

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They're fine without Wahoo, it's just a name they've had for 100 years and it should be left at that this point. Make sure fans act respectfully and throw some money around to actual Indians, but the name is what it is and it's fine. Playing Voldemort with the word "Indians" is silly.

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I have a soft spot in my heart for the name, from my own youth (okay, almost entirely wrapped up in Major League), but I really think we should let Native Americans decide for themselves if the name is okay and should stay. 

 

Longevity and nostalgia could not be any less relevant.

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1 hour ago, McCall said:

Even if they change the name, I don't think they change colors. Navy and red works for "Spiders" and the only reason to change would be to appease those who say there are too many teams with navy and red. The organization isn't going to base their decision on that.

 

I agree that they won't listen to that complaint.  And really, they shouldn't.

 

I'm personally hoping for a black-and-red color scheme.  I know, Cincinnati and all that, but I would reverse it to be mostly black with red accents.

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I think that swapping white for cream (and maybe using purple instead of navy) would be a great way for Cleveland to set themselves apart from the other RWB teams. It's appropriately vintage for such an old team and especially with a name change it would bring about a new era in Cleveland.

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23 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

Which Native Americans?


That is an excellent question.  The First Nations community is as broad and diverse as any other, and any attempt to distill all that down to a single opinion is both difficult and foolhardy.  Especially by outsiders.

 

The only reasonable option I can see is deferring to the National Congress of American Indians.  It is the representative body for all federally-recognized tribes of every size, and their determinations are the closest thing to a consensus that we can find on Native issues.  I don't know of any better way for their voices to be heard but to let them speak for themselves through their representatives.

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2 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

I agree that they won't listen to that complaint.  And really, they shouldn't.

 

I'm personally hoping for a black-and-red color scheme.  I know, Cincinnati and all that, but I would reverse it to be mostly black with red accents.

 

Don't ask me why, because I don't know, but when I hear Cleveland Spiders, my brain thinks burgundy/cream/black. 

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2 hours ago, Gothamite said:


That is an excellent question.  The First Nations community is as broad and diverse as any other, and any attempt to distill all that down to a single opinion is both difficult and foolhardy.  Especially by outsiders.

 

The only reasonable option I can see is deferring to the National Congress of American Indians.  It is the representative body for all federally-recognized tribes of every size, and their determinations are the closest thing to a consensus that we can find on Native issues.  I don't know of any better way for their voices to be heard but to let them speak for themselves through their representatives.

A counter argument would be that it should go to the local tribes, if such exist. 

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7 hours ago, beachperroAZ said:

I have felt like the Cleveland Indians have never been the same without Wahoo.  At least the Braves when they let go of the noca homa logo they still had the tomohawk on the jerseys that clearly identifies themselves as the Braves.  The indians have no logo at all besides a bland block C.  Its time to change the name and I am in favor of the Spiders.  Black and silver would be a great combo if it were not for the Chicago White Sox already claiming it.  They might have to get a little creative on some colors.  

 

I totally agree. They essentially function as the Cleveland Baseball Team but unlike Washington there is nothing unique or interesting about their current identity in any way.

 

Cleveland Spiders would be great using the eight legs theme.

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21 minutes ago, Gothamite said:


That would be another option in some places, but Ohio hasn’t had any local tribes in nearly 180 years.

 

https://www.dispatch.com/article/20130818/NEWS/308189783

 

 

There are no reservations in Ohio, but I remember some tribes would occasionally hold meetings in Southeast Ohio when I was younger. 

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There are some tribes with historical ties to Ohio, but they haven’t lived there for the better part of two centuries.  I would personally be interested in what they have to say, but I’m not  sure that it’s fair to single out their voices above others in their community.

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3 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

There are some tribes with historical ties to Ohio, but they haven’t lived there for the better part of two centuries.  I would personally be interested in what they have to say, but I’m not  sure that it’s fair to single out their voices above others in their community.

Those tribes are now spread from North Carolina all the way out to Oklahoma. That's why I think holding on to Indians isn't as simple as agreements between Florida State and the Seminole tribes. I'd love to keep the name but the requirements for branding would be so much pain that changing the name will get Cleveland better logos and a maybe even a singular direction of uniform design. Right now they have two designs spread across four jerseys that don't compliment each other and a primary logo that's so plain and isn't even used in either wordmark.

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Just for the hell of it, I spent a couple minutes researching tribes formerly of Ohio, to see if we could get a sense for their stance.  One of the largest was the Illinois Confederation, which no longer exists but is survived in some form by the Peoria Tribe of Oklahoma.  The Peoria people were instrumental in getting the University of Illinois to drop its native-themed iconography, so it seems unlikely they’d give the baseball team their blessing. 
 

I actually think the NCAA has the right approach; it’s a matter of intellectual property.  A people have the right to determine their own representation and own their own symbols. In the case of the Seminoles, the University was able to come to an agreement with the three tribes to license the name.  And they pay for it. When you have a generic name like Cleveland does, you need to license it from the representatives of the largest possible number of people. So again, we’re back to the NCAI, unless there’s another entity I’m not aware of that should be in the conversation. 
 

Cleveland would be best served by a clean break, I think.  New name, and new logos built up from the ground around it.  And there’s a lot they could do with “Spiders”.

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