MLB 2021

[jp1409]

6 hours ago, marlinfan said:

Have you ever been to Miami? Marlins Park is exactly what a ballpark in Miami should look like. It’s definitely not Art Deco or Mediterranean Revival which are both concentrated to two small areas in the city.

 

MLB in Florida was doomed from the beginning when MLB allowed Joe Robbie Stadium and Tropicana Field to be permanent solutions during expansion.

 

I visited the Trop this weekend for the first time in about 10 years and while it’s still the 29th best ballpark in baseball the experience has improved tremendously.

 

 

 

Have to agree about pretty much all of this. Joe Robbie and the Trop were brutal choices... The locations and general baseball experience were (still are for the Trop) their worst sins. I got used to Marlins Park since I kinda like the updates that took care of Loria's "crazyness" but still don't like the location that much. As for the Trop you're absolutely right, it's way better than it was back in the days but most of the other current ballparks are simply so much better. I'm usually in Treasure Island whenever I'm around which makes the drive pretty easy but can understand locals who don't want to make it there and pay full price to attend a game in this dreary dome... I don't know which is your 30th but Chicago Guaranteed Rate Field or Rogers Centre seem like propable suspects. I've been to 20 current stadiums and Toronto, Tampa and Chicago WS are definitely bottom three.

[jp1409]

5 hours ago, Lights Out said:

 

I strongly doubt there are many other non-MLB markets that would consistently fill the seats for Spring Training games the way Montreal did. Maybe special event games that actually count, like the Field of Dreams Game or the Little League Classic. But not Spring Training.

 

Expos fans also flocked to Cooperstown for Tim Raines' induction ceremony a few years ago despite not having a team anymore. I'm sure the MLB noticed that too.

 

Montrealers love special/trendy events (see Formula 1), love to say they were there even though they don't give a damn. These exhibitions were exactly this. You had some Montrealers in full-clad Expos gear at these games claiming to be diehard Expos fans who only attended two-three games a year back in the days despite dirt cheap tickets complaining that it was so complicated getting to Olympic Stadium while it isn't actually that bad... I grew up a 11 hours roundtrip away from Montreal, went to 12-15 Expos games per season as a kid and know a lot of people from all over Quebec did the same. People from neighboring regions helped packed the place for these exhibition games as it was worth heading to Montreal for these "special events", will it be the same for regular Monday to Thursday games if the team isn't a perennial contender? As much as I want the Expos back I highly doubt it...

[Marlins93]

19 hours ago, selgy said:

I'm not sure why anyone immediately ties the fan issues of one Florida franchise to the other. Other than both being in Florida, the situations and circumstances for both clubs are exclusive and unique to each of those clubs. 

The Marlins have a solid core of good young players and will fill it with veterans come the 2023 season and will be strong for a few years. This ownership group looks like they are intended on winning and hopefully the fans wont be sold one year "oh look we invested" like previous attempts" and then sell offs. 

The Marlins park isn't the best location and was built about a mile from the high speed rail. But other than the stupid darkening of the stadium (come on Jeter, you really don't need to make it dark and dreary like Yankee stadium), I like the Marlins ballpark. 

But back to your point. The Marlins and Rays shouldn't be lumped in together. That's just people going for easy talking points. 

 

While I agree that people shouldn't always lump the Miami and Tampa situations together, there are still some similar challenges that both franchises are facing. The biggest common denominator is that both metro areas have large numbers of transplants from up north and elsewhere. A 90s expansion team is going to have to compete against familial allegiances to the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Cubs, etc. The entire state of Florida also has a fair amount of Braves fans due to the influence of TBS during the 90s.

 

Both teams have struggled with attendance largely for this reason, even during stretches where the team shows some on-field success.

 

Location is also an issue for both the Marlins and Rays. The Marlins lost a lot of season ticket holders from Broward and Palm Beach when they relocated to Little Havana. The distance and lack of other attractions in the area don't give fans much incentive to make the trek.

 

The Rays case is interesting because they have demonstrated that not even a consistent contender would be enough to move the attendance needle in a big way, although I was impressed by the number of people in attendance during their recent series with the Marlins. It's hard to say if location is what's really holding them back from having 25-30,000 people in the stands each night. In the Marlins' case, I blame it on persistent distrust with the various ownership groups, long stretches without playoff contention, and the stadium's location. Of course, that's all on top of the transplant community and stronger local preferences for football and basketball over baseball.

[Ben in LA]

4 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

Hat Club was WAY out in front on that one. 

They sold the reverse (dark crown; light bill) as well, and I’m kicking myself for not grabbing it

[Ben in LA]

I should’ve added this tweet from Hat Club’s past

 

[selgy]

17 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

I'm not lumping them together.  I'm simply stating that regardless of the reasons, neither one has taken root, and I have no confidence that there's any way baseball in Florida will ever be a success.  It might be a failure in each Florida location for different reasons, but there's no reason to believe it would succeed anywhere in Florida. 

 

Would a perfectly-located stadium in Tampa work?  Maybe, but it can't happen so it's moot.  Would a great team bring people to that ugly-ass dull-dome that is the antithesis of what a stadium in Miami should look like?  Again, we'll never know.  Move them to Orlando, and the excuse will be that they're competing with Disney or some other reason.

 

I'm old enough to remember expansion in '93, and reading an article in SI about how one writer felt major-league baseball in Florida was a bad idea - and it turns out he was right.  Florida should cherish it's place as one of the two sprint training sites, and be good with that.

It's not just you. There are many that use the same argument 

[selgy]

9 hours ago, marlinfan said:

I have a hard time believing hockey can thrive in Tampa but baseball cannot.

The hockey arena is located in DT Tampa (population density). The baseball stadium is located 30 minutes west of DT Tampa. (about 1/3 the population density)

Math

[Ridleylash]

https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/2021/09/28/rays-change-plans-wont-post-sign-about-montreal-at-trop/?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

Okay, so Stu thinks it's just the sign that's the issue here and not the literally everything about this plan lmao

[Gothamite]

On 9/27/2021 at 7:06 PM, JTernup said:

Somebody didn’t read what I said or the quoted post. One of the biggest issues is that the Trop is not very accessible. Them when you get there it’s not a compelling value. I never said it was an excuse but it’s a pretty simple value proposition.

 

That would be a good argument, except that Tampa Bay has demonstrated that they’re not even interested when the Rays are the best team in the American League. 

 

The Rays have given the area compelling value.  The area yawned and went back to ignoring them. 

[BBTV]

10 minutes ago, Ridleylash said:

https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/2021/09/28/rays-change-plans-wont-post-sign-about-montreal-at-trop/?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

Hold on - I totally misunderstood this plan.  I thought this was starting sooner, and they'd still play in the Trop, while also playing at Olympic Stadium in MTL, until one of the areas caved and built them a new stadium. 

 

I didn't realize that this plan wouldn't start for 6 years, and would require TWO new stadiums!  WTF.  If all the Tampa people here are accurate, then a single new stadium in Tampa should fix everything (I'm still skeptical about that, but let's assume it's true) and there's no need for Montreal to be a part of this plan.

 

They expect TWO new stadiums, each to be used for half a season?  I'm glad that mental health is something we can discuss a little more freely these days, because this guy is clearly suffering from some kind of mental disorder, and should be evaluated immediately.

[Sec19Row53]

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

Hold on - I totally misunderstood this plan.  I thought this was starting sooner, and they'd still play in the Trop, while also playing at Olympic Stadium in MTL, until one of the areas caved and built them a new stadium. 

 

I didn't realize that this plan wouldn't start for 6 years, and would require TWO new stadiums!  WTF.  If all the Tampa people here are accurate, then a single new stadium in Tampa should fix everything (I'm still skeptical about that, but let's assume it's true) and there's no need for Montreal to be a part of this plan.

 

They expect TWO new stadiums, each to be used for half a season?  I'm glad that mental health is something we can discuss a little more freely these days, because this guy is clearly suffering from some kind of mental disorder, and should be evaluated immediately.

You're assuming he actually expects two stadia to be built. As soon as one breaks ground, it's the winner in this race and will be rewarded with the Rays/Expos (depending on its location).

[JTernup]

2 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

That would be a good argument, except that Tampa Bay has demonstrated that they’re not even interested when the Rays are the best team in the American League. 

 

The Rays have given the area compelling value.  The area yawned and went back to ignoring them. 

That’s where I’d bring in the argument that TV viewership is close to league average. Going to the Trop (for 20k 81x a year) isn’t compelling value when you can save yourself a minimum of $50/game/person and not have to deal with the long drive to a terrible park. The team being good makes you watch them but the cost/commute/bad fan experience keeps you at home.

 

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

Hold on - I totally misunderstood this plan.  I thought this was starting sooner, and they'd still play in the Trop, while also playing at Olympic Stadium in MTL, until one of the areas caved and built them a new stadium. 

 

I didn't realize that this plan wouldn't start for 6 years, and would require TWO new stadiums!  WTF.  If all the Tampa people here are accurate, then a single new stadium in Tampa should fix everything (I'm still skeptical about that, but let's assume it's true) and there's no need for Montreal to be a part of this plan.

 

They expect TWO new stadiums, each to be used for half a season?  I'm glad that mental health is something we can discuss a little more freely these days, because this guy is clearly suffering from some kind of mental disorder, and should be evaluated immediately.

It is such a wildly idiotic idea that it’s hard to comprehend unless you consider that this has never been a good faith plan.

 

And just to be clear, a new stadium could fail as well. I don’t think it will, but I can’t guarantee it’s a silver bullet. My entire argument is that you can’t hold something back, neglect the fan base and suck for 2/3 of your existence in a terrible ballpark and then claim the fan base isn’t good enough. The circumstances in Tampa wouldn’t have been a recipe for success anywhere in the league. I’m generally opposed to moving teams, but especially so when your best option is another city that lost a team for the same kinds of problems the current team is facing.

[gosioux76]

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

Hold on - I totally misunderstood this plan.  I thought this was starting sooner, and they'd still play in the Trop, while also playing at Olympic Stadium in MTL, until one of the areas caved and built them a new stadium. 

 

I didn't realize that this plan wouldn't start for 6 years, and would require TWO new stadiums!  WTF.  If all the Tampa people here are accurate, then a single new stadium in Tampa should fix everything (I'm still skeptical about that, but let's assume it's true) and there's no need for Montreal to be a part of this plan.

 

They expect TWO new stadiums, each to be used for half a season?  I'm glad that mental health is something we can discuss a little more freely these days, because this guy is clearly suffering from some kind of mental disorder, and should be evaluated immediately.

 

Yeah, it's totally bonkers. There's no other explanation than it's a cynical and transparent ploy to see if A) this scheme greases the wheels in Tampa and gets some movement on a stadium there while B ) giving them a place to land when it doesn't. I seriously doubt they ever intend to put shovels in the ground in two cities to build two half-season stadiums for a single team. 

[jp1409]

5 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

Hold on - I totally misunderstood this plan.  I thought this was starting sooner, and they'd still play in the Trop, while also playing at Olympic Stadium in MTL, until one of the areas caved and built them a new stadium. 

 

I didn't realize that this plan wouldn't start for 6 years, and would require TWO new stadiums!  WTF.  If all the Tampa people here are accurate, then a single new stadium in Tampa should fix everything (I'm still skeptical about that, but let's assume it's true) and there's no need for Montreal to be a part of this plan.

 

They expect TWO new stadiums, each to be used for half a season?  I'm glad that mental health is something we can discuss a little more freely these days, because this guy is clearly suffering from some kind of mental disorder, and should be evaluated immediately.

 

The plan is to build some kind of upscale spring training stadium in Tampa playing ST and starting the regular season there assuming people in Montreal wouldn't really be interested in outdoor games before summer kicks in and would rotate playoff location between Tampa and Montreal. This whole thing is a total mess...

[spartacat_12]

5 hours ago, BBTV said:

They expect TWO new stadiums, each to be used for half a season?  I'm glad that mental health is something we can discuss a little more freely these days, because this guy is clearly suffering from some kind of mental disorder, and should be evaluated immediately.

 

I guess their logic is that by playing early season games in Tampa, and summer games in Montreal, they wouldn't need to build a domed/retractable roof stadium. If they played full time in one of those cities they'd most likely need roof. But I still doubt that one domed stadium would cost more than two open-air stadiums.

[Digby]

49 minutes ago, jp1409 said:

 

The plan is to build some kind of upscale spring training stadium in Tampa playing ST and starting the regular season there assuming people in Montreal wouldn't really be interested in outdoor games before summer kicks in and would rotate playoff location between Tampa and Montreal. This whole thing is a total mess...

 

Effectively that would give your own players extra road games come playoff time, maybe not in fanbase (ideally) but certainly in the travel and routine of it. Brilliant.

[Ark]

I have to say I love this plan because I have a giant soft spot for the Expos.

[gosioux76]

1 hour ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

I guess their logic is that by playing early season games in Tampa, and summer games in Montreal, they wouldn't need to build a domed/retractable roof stadium. If they played full time in one of those cities they'd most likely need roof. But I still doubt that one domed stadium would cost more than two open-air stadiums.

 

And that's not even accounting for the political capital required to enable development of two stadiums. Already, mayoral candidates in Montreal are weighing in, with all three saying no to using public money, and one opposing the use of the federally owned site identified as a possible ballpark site. 

 

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/mayoral-candidates-would-love-for-baseball-to-return-so-long-as-montreal-doesnt-pay-for-it

 

17 minutes ago, Ark said:

I have to say I love this plan because I have a giant soft spot for the Expos.

 

I do, too. But I haven't seen anything to suggest they'd be playing in Montreal as the Expos. I mean, it's one thing to split your time between two cities, but would they also split into two different identities? I'm not sure I've seen them address that question. 

 

 

 

 

[SFGiants58]

I really don’t have a soft spot for the Expos at all. The team died because the market and team did a fusion dance of failure. I think the current nostalgia movement is the product of rose-tinted glasses and is completely ignorant of the socioeconomic realities that doomed the Expos to relocation.

People like to pin everything on the ‘94 strike and Loria, but it’s not that simple at all. I’m not a Loria apologist, but he inherited a team run on the cheap in a market that nearly seceded from Canada.  The 1994 team, had they made the playoffs, would have just broken even. The fire sale would still happen and the Expos would become a dumpster fire again. He wasn’t willing to use private money for a new stadium? Well, Brochu (the previous owner) didn’t want to use it either. The minute that the original Bronfman sold the team, the Expos’ days were numbered.

[MilSox]

18 hours ago, jp1409 said:

 

Have to agree about pretty much all of this. Joe Robbie and the Trop were brutal choices... The locations and general baseball experience were (still are for the Trop) their worst sins. I got used to Marlins Park since I kinda like the updates that took care of Loria's "crazyness" but still don't like the location that much. As for the Trop you're absolutely right, it's way better than it was back in the days but most of the other current ballparks are simply so much better. I'm usually in Treasure Island whenever I'm around which makes the drive pretty easy but can understand locals who don't want to make it there and pay full price to attend a game in this dreary dome... I don't know which is your 30th but Chicago Guaranteed Rate Field or Rogers Centre seem like propable suspects. I've been to 20 current stadiums and Toronto, Tampa and Chicago WS are definitely bottom three.

 

What's so terrible about the White Sox park? Apart from the lack of open concourses, I can't think of anything wrong with it.