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5 minutes ago, Marlins93 said:

I agree. I detest those black Mets' uniforms and I'm shocked to see fans clamoring to bring them back. I really don't understand the inclination. Is it because fans think they look sharp or because they carry Mike Piazza nostalgia?

 

it's basically like anything: nostalgia for one's own experiences.

 

the black unis appeal to piazza-era kids like me, and wright/reyes-era kids like the fans that are a little younger than me. the design is secondary (though like i said above, if isolated to one jersey and with more blue worked it, i think it could look decent). add to that pete alonso (and, to a lesser extent, marcus stroman when he was here) stoking the flames and you have what you have now.

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1 minute ago, Brian E said:

 

it's basically like anything: nostalgia for one's own experiences.

 

the black unis appeal to piazza-era kids like me, and wright/reyes-era kids like the fans that are a little younger than me. the design is secondary (though like i said above, if isolated to one jersey and with more blue worked it, i think it could look decent). add to that pete alonso (and, to a lesser extent, marcus stroman when he was here) stoking the flames and you have what you have now.

 

I would never fault anyone for being nostalgic. The Marlins won the 2003 World Series in a similar black alternate and those jerseys became iconic for that run. Despite how nostalgic I am for the 2003 season and how much I would like to return to a teal Florida Marlins identity (for aesthetic reasons above all), I would never want those black alternates brought back because I find them rather hideous.

 

So I understand the inclination to be nostalgic, but I personally stop short when I know something isn't aesthetically pleasing. In the Mets' case, it's mostly a combination of the drop shadow and white outline that make it look like an optically muddled abomination. I'm sure that they could fix some of those problems but it would be a shame for a team like the Mets, with a rather nice set right now, to drain themselves of color.

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24 minutes ago, the admiral said:

 

What if "Indians" is too vague to be intellectual property? What if not every proper noun in the English language can be someone's intellectual property?

 

It's not vague enough. In this context, "Indians" clearly means "the indigenous peoples of the United States." That word is their intellectual property, at least I think that's what Gothamite is trying to say. I agree with him.

 

History schmistory. Also, what history? Said history is abysmal, unremarkable, and irrelevant history outside of the late-'40s--early-'50s (admittedly a big point of pride), the mid-late--'90s, and a few points in the '00s and '10s. The name has to go. It should have gone away as part of the deal to get public money for The Jake.

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32 minutes ago, Marlins93 said:

 

I would never fault anyone for being nostalgic. The Marlins won the 2003 World Series in a similar black alternate and those jerseys became iconic for that run. Despite how nostalgic I am for the 2003 season and how much I would like to return to a teal Florida Marlins identity (for aesthetic reasons above all), I would never want those black alternates brought back because I find them rather hideous.

 

So I understand the inclination to be nostalgic, but I personally stop short when I know something isn't aesthetically pleasing. In the Mets' case, it's mostly a combination of the drop shadow and white outline that make it look like an optically muddled abomination. I'm sure that they could fix some of those problems but it would be a shame for a team like the Mets, with a rather nice set right now, to drain themselves of color.

 

that's a great parallel: the black marlins jerseys. obviously, i have no sentimental attachment to those (except for the fact that i jumped up and down like an idiot because you guys beat the yankees in that WS). and even though you cherish their place in marlins history, you don't either. but undoubtedly, some marlins fans do. that's mets fans and the black unis. clinched the '00 pennant and the '06 division in them. people immediately think of piazza when they come up.

 

i guess my only quibble is that i don't think the black jersey looks *that* bad. when blue is used liberally on the patch, sleeves, and socks to pop color in, i think one could even argue it's a nice change of pace (if used sparingly):

 

Pitcher Rick Reed of the New York Mets in action during a game... Photo  d'actualité - Getty Images

 

Mets most amazing trades to bring a first baseman to Flushing - Page 3

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40 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

It's not vague enough. In this context, "Indians" clearly means "the indigenous peoples of the United States." That word is their intellectual property, at least I think that's what Gothamite is trying to say. I agree with him.

 

History schmistory. Also, what history? Said history is abysmal, unremarkable, and irrelevant history outside of the late-'40s--early-'50s (admittedly a big point of pride), the mid-late--'90s, and a few points in the '00s and '10s. The name has to go. It should have gone away as part of the deal to get public money for The Jake.


+1. 

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Are all demonyms around the world the intellectual property of their respective peoples? How would this be enforced? Has it been enforced?

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I'm not well versed in all of the different versions of the Mets' black era, but this cap really makes me retch, especially once you compare it to what they're wearing now (and wore earlier in their existence). The white is just too pronounced to the point where the blue and orange get swallowed up. Same goes for the wordmark in the Bobby V photo. It's just hard for me to comprehend why fans would actually like these.

 

https%3A%2F%2Frisingapple.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2017%2F07%2F373363-850x560.jpeg

 

bobby-valentine1.jpg?w=420&h=316&crop=1

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That hat looks good in person. The blue really "pops", as much as I hate using that term. The black hat with the blue NY and orange outline is a bit more muddled. 

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Those Mets uniforms are really quite awful.  Royal blue and black are really hard to work together, so they have to overdo the white and throw the entire balance out of whack.

 

That cap logo especially becomes a garbled mess at any distance over a foot and a half.  A blob, a bug, the two letters utterly unintelligible.

 

bobby-valentine1.jpg?w=420&h=316&crop=1

 

Terrible.  It's like they said "the Yankees always look good, we have to do the exact opposite."

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2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

It's not vague enough. In this context, "Indians" clearly means "the indigenous peoples of the United States." That word is their intellectual property, at least I think that's what Gothamite is trying to say. I agree with him.

 

History schmistory. Also, what history? Said history is abysmal, unremarkable, and irrelevant history outside of the late-'40s--early-'50s (admittedly a big point of pride), the mid-late--'90s, and a few points in the '00s and '10s. The name has to go. It should have gone away as part of the deal to get public money for The Jake.

 

Is "Fighting Irish" intellectual property of the Irish, or of Notre Dame? 

 

Are "Canadiens" and "Canucks" intellectual property of Canadians at large, or the hockey teams? 

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3 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

That cap logo especially becomes a garbled mess at any distance over a foot and a half.  A blob, a bug, the two letters utterly unintelligible.

 

Exactly. It becomes some competition between black, white, blue, and orange, and the white sort of wins, but everything just appears muddled.

 

There's a cap version without the white outline apparently. It looks less garbled, but the blue doesn't really assert itself, so I consider that a fail in its own right.

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On 11/9/2020 at 11:15 AM, WSU151 said:

 

Is "Fighting Irish" intellectual property of the Irish, or of Notre Dame? 
 

 

It’s a Catholic University, with a significant Irish-American Catholic heritage. It’s permissible and arguably more property of ND. If it was just “Irish” and if the Irish hadn’t been elevated to the level of “white” in the decades since their initial arrival into the US, then there might be more of an issue. 

 

Quote

 

Are "Canadiens" and "Canucks" intellectual property of Canadians at large, or the hockey teams? 


Both hockey teams were founded by white Canadians and use terms that refer to white Canadians, so it's permissible. White Canadians are not a historically oppressed minority that fell victim to a long-term genocide.

 

Edited by SFGiants58

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I'm not Greek but I love Greek food. If I were to open a Greek restaurant with stereotypically Greek decor called "The Greece Trap," would I have to seek and receive approval from Greek people or the government of Greece in order to profit from Greek culture in a way that falls short of reverent? I feel like it would be a nice courtesy, but I think don't think it's a matter of IP law. 

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I do agree that the name “Indians” is sensitive, and brings a lot of issues with that, so there’s a lot of reasons to ditch the name, and move on from any imagery of said name. 
 

But I don’t think that people can own demonyms... I mean who gets paid everytime someone uses those words? It just doesn’t work that way. There are good ones to use, and bad ones that maybe shouldn’t be used, but I don’t think anyone has rights to those terms. 

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Don't get me wrong, it's ethically good that Florida State works with the Seminole tribe in order to do business as the Seminoles, and given the specificity of the tribe, it probably makes good legal sense, too. But "Indians" as a whole as an IP matter is a reach. And, again, the team did what you wanted them to do. Inch, mile. 

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Likewise...I understand the argument from @SFGiants58, I'm just not as convinced about the IP application.

 

The Spokane Indians are owned by a white guy...and it's great that they have a solid relationship with local tribes...but in no way is there an IP issue there. 

 

People can litigate IP issues pretty easily. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, the admiral said:

But "Indians" as a whole as an IP matter is a reach. And, again, the team did what you wanted them to do. Inch, mile. 


I wanted them to change the name. I’ve always wanted them to change the name. Getting rid of Wahoo was never enough.
 

Native American mascots, even something as mundane as “Indians” need permission from tribes. The Blackhawks’ and Spokane Indians’ work with tribes makes their names ok, as well as the aforementioned Florida St.

 

A majority of the National Congress of American Indians or a similar organization approving the name and directions for the brand after Wahoo would be nice, but that won’t happen. It’s better to just throw the identity away if you can’t get a better logo than the block C. 
 

47 minutes ago, the admiral said:

I'm not Greek but I love Greek food. If I were to open a Greek restaurant with stereotypically Greek decor called "The Greece Trap," would I have to seek and receive approval from Greek people or the government of Greece in order to profit from Greek culture in a way that falls short of reverent? I feel like it would be a nice courtesy, but I think don't think it's a matter of IP law. 

 

The Greeks/Greek-Americans were never the victims of a long-term genocide and multiple centuries of oppression in the way that Native Americans were. That’s apples and oranges. A closer example would be to bring up the Jews, Australian Aboriginals, or the Romani.

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I think the black actually looks cool for the Mets (AS AN ALTERNATE). Either a black jersey, or just a black addition to their color scheme. Maybe only wear it during night games. Black should have no place in the main look though.

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8 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:


I wanted them to change the name. I’ve always wanted them to change the name. Getting rid of Wahoo was never enough.
 

Native American mascots, even something as mundane as “Indians” need permission from tribes. The Blackhawks’ and Spokane Indians’ work with tribes makes their names ok, as well as the aforementioned Florida St.

 

A majority of the National Congress of American Indians or a similar organization approving the name and directions for the brand after Wahoo would be nice, but that won’t happen. It’s better to just throw the identity away if you can’t get a better logo than the block C. 

 

If Cleveland were to find some arrangement with a tribe or the NCAI, would you be okay with the name? 

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1 minute ago, WSU151 said:

 

If Cleveland were to find some arrangement with a tribe or the NCAI, would you be okay with the name? 


NCAI members voting unanimously, with extensive relationship established between the team and tribal communities? Yes.

 

Just one tribe approving it? Never.

 

If even one tribe refuses the name, Cleveland should change the name.

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