Cleveland Indians become the Cleveland Guardians

[-Akronite-]

21 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Sure the block C has “history” and so does the color scheme, but is that history worth much of anything? This club was one of the most historically-irrelevant franchises in Big Four sports, next to the Arizona Cardinals, Florida Panthers, and Sacramento Kings.

 

Until LeBron was drafted, the Indians weren't even the least relevant team in the city. Cleveland has the most AL Central Division titles and we're 7th all time in win %. There was a long down period but from the 90s on they've been one of the better MLB franchises, just missing a WS title (in 3 damn attempts including two extra innings game 7 losses fuuuuuck). 

 

Culturally, financially, and success-wise the team is certainly no powerhouse, but it's a disservice to compare them to the Sacramento Kings (my apologies to Kings fans).

 

3 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

I'd almost buy their argument if the name change talk had started in the last year or two, but the reality is that the name and Wahoo have been issues longer than political correctness has been a thing.

 

Not that it changes your point, but political correctness has been a thing for a long time. It gets a new name every so often (cancel culture, wokeness, etc.) but this is an old issue itself. Bill Maher used to host "Politically Incorrect" starting in 1993(!) and people still pretend it's a new phenomenon that the way we use language affects other people.

[infrared41]

11 minutes ago, -Akronite- said:

22 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

I'd almost buy their argument if the name change talk had started in the last year or two, but the reality is that the name and Wahoo have been issues longer than political correctness has been a thing.

 

Not that it changes your point, but political correctness has been a thing for a long time. It gets a new name every so often (cancel culture, wokeness, etc.) but this is an old issue itself. Bill Maher used to host "Politically Incorrect" starting in 1993(!) and people still pretend it's a new phenomenon that the way we use language affects other people.

 

I'm an old guy. When I said before political correctness was a thing, that's exactly what I meant. People were protesting the name when I was a kid in the early 70's. I remember posters and pennants that would replace the name Indians with other races or derogatory names and ask "is this OK too?" We're talking when I was 9 or 10 years old. My earliest memory of the term political correctness becoming a thing is from the mid- 80's. But I could be wrong about that. I did drink an awful lot back then.

[Hat Boy]

2 hours ago, CLEstones said:

 The logo package could have been some of the best in sports... now it's in the running for worst.

The worst in all sports?   It is not even the worst in baseball. (Tampa Bay's sun ray and part time fish)

[CLEstones]

10 minutes ago, Hat Boy said:

The worst in all sports?   It is not even the worst in baseball. (Tampa Bay's sun ray and part time fish)

 

The Rays's wordmark alone makes it far superior to Cleveland.  Sure, there may be a little disjointedness with the Devil Rays and the starburst... but at least all them are done well.  Nothing in the Cleveland package is done well.

[CLEstones]

1 hour ago, MJWalker45 said:

I don't. It's a simple block letter that was so plain that the only way it could have been blander is if it was the Impact letters from the Civil Rights game a few years back. It came into use, after the jerseys that you referred to and the Dolan's weren't going to make a change that could possibly go unnoticed by non uniform nerds. I think the new C that will go on the hat is an improvement over the Block C, even if the CLEVELAND wordmark need a lot of work. 

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1043/1128500223_35c5d76d03_o.jpg

 

As far as everything being green, there's a lot of stadiums that have that same aesthetic.  I'm of the opinion  that changing colors would have been even worse than only changing the name and wordmarks.  And Cleveland Forest City's is an awkward name as well. 

 

Yes, it is an awkward name.  But it at least gave them a foundation and base to do this renaming and rebranding properly.  Instead, they tried to partially appease everyone and created a package totally void of an identity and real character.  

[SFGiants58]

11 minutes ago, CLEstones said:

 

The Rays's wordmark alone makes it far superior to Cleveland.  Sure, there may be a little disjointedness with the Devil Rays and the starburst... but at least all them are done well.  Nothing in the Cleveland package is done well.

At least the Guardians don’t use drop shadow or a bland Times New Roman-like font. The Guardians have character while the Rays look bland and forgettable.

[MJWalker45]

9 minutes ago, CLEstones said:

 

Yes, it is an awkward name.  But it at least gave them a foundation and base to do this renaming and rebranding properly.  Instead, they tried to partially appease everyone and created a package totally void of an identity and real character.  

If the name is awkward, what kind of foundation is that? Guardians is a decent name, not something that sparks a lot of joy for most folks, but it looks good on a jersey and it won't trip up broadcasters reporting on the games. 

[spartacat_12]

22 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Ah, thanks. My dad is from a Louisville suburb that’s in Indiana, so out-of-state suburbs are a fun little topic for me.

 

Ottawa is an interesting one too. It is the largest provincial border city in Canada, and Ontario & Quebec have some drastic cultural differences. Although it is considered part of the same metro-area, when you drive across the river into Gatineau it almost feels like going into a new country.

 

Eugene Melnyk caused a huge uproar earlier this year when he suggested potentially building a new arena for the Sens on the Quebec side of the river (even though it would be closer to downtown than the current arena).

 

There have previously been suggestions to remove Ottawa/Gatineau from ON/QC and create a separate capital district, like DC, but they've never made it very far.

 

19 hours ago, Cujo said:

It does.

 

Don't be shocked when WFT drops 'Washington Avengers' on us all.

 

Well if there was going to be one city to use a superhero-inspired name, Cleveland would make the most sense. In fact, the first appearance of a character called Superman was in a magazine titled The Advance Guard of Future Civilization. There's obviously a very loose connection there, but you can say that Guardians could tie into that.

[MJWalker45]

1 minute ago, spartacat_12 said:

Well if there was going to be one city to use a superhero-inspired name, Cleveland would make the most sense. In fact, the first appearance of a character called Superman was in a magazine titled The Advance Guard of Future Civilization. There's obviously a very loose connection there, but you can say that Guardians could tie into that.

Nike's going to use that for their City Connect uniform now. Hahahahahaha!!!

[Gothamite]

4 hours ago, the admiral said:

This isn't really civil rights

 

Sure it is.  The right to self-representation is a civil right.  One that Native American groups have been seeking for generations.

 

Now, I'll grant you that this isn't a civil rights issue for the Dolans.  Or for MLB.   But it is for Native Americans.  And as much as this identity change is a civil rights issue for them, it also is for the people who oppose the change.  Which is why the pushback isn't surprising.

[SFGiants58]

It’s why I wouldn’t have minded Dobys as a team name, provided Larry Doby’s estate was cool with it.

[Gothamite]

1 minute ago, SFGiants58 said:

It’s why I wouldn’t have minded Dobys as a team name, provided Larry Doby’s estate was cool with it.

 

For me it always boils down to intellectual property.   Whether we're talking Native identities or any other.

 

If team wanted to name themselves the "Splendid Splinters", for example, they should secure a license agreement from Ted Williams's estate.   

[CLEstones]

21 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

If the name is awkward, what kind of foundation is that? Guardians is a decent name, not something that sparks a lot of joy for most folks, but it looks good on a jersey and it won't trip up broadcasters reporting on the games. 

 

Cleveland Forest Citys is an awkward name***

 

I think Cleveland Guardians is fine.

[CLEstones]

24 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

At least the Guardians don’t use drop shadow or a bland Times New Roman-like font. The Guardians have character while the Rays look bland and forgettable.

 

Sometimes bland and basic is better than horribly conceived and contrived character. 

[MJWalker45]

1 minute ago, CLEstones said:

 

Cleveland Forest Citys is an awkward name***

 

I think Cleveland Guardians is fine.

I meant the Forest Citys was the awkward name. Guardians is a good name. I like the logos, but I understand the issues with that Thor/G ball look. 

[infrared41]

14 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

It’s why I wouldn’t have minded Dobys as a team name, provided Larry Doby’s estate was cool with it.

 

Dobys sounds like a bunch of these guys.

 

[HopewellJones]

IMO the Guardians nailed it. They didn’t pull any “Cleveland Baseball Team” BS, they didn’t nuke the whole identity, and they aren’t acting like their history is nonexistent. I don’t think they need to change color scheme or whatever to distance themselves as much as possible from anything associated with the Indians brand. It seems to me that they’re doing this in the most honest and admirable way possible. The color scheme wasn’t wrong, the script and overall uniform style wasn’t wrong, it was just the team name. They changed it. If anything, the whole ordeal can be a learning opportunity. They can keep their history with the (significant) asterisk of “yeah the nickname was a misstep.” 

[VDizzle12]

1 hour ago, infrared41 said:

 

I'm an old guy. When I said before political correctness was a thing, that's exactly what I meant. People were protesting the name when I was a kid in the early 70's. I remember posters and pennants that would replace the name Indians with other races or derogatory names and ask "is this OK too?" We're talking when I was 9 or 10 years old. My earliest memory of the term political correctness becoming a thing is from the mid- 80's. But I could be wrong about that. I did drink an awful lot back then.

 

I only started going to games as a kid in the 90s and like you say there has always been protesters. I'll never forget walking into the Jake in the early 2000s and hearing protesters yell at families. One yelled "Good job raising your kids to be f***ing racists you f***ing P.O.S. parents." If a name change stops that from happening, I'm all for it. I don't want my son to be faced with verbal insults every time we walk into a baseball game, or feel threatened because we are wearing a Cleveland baseball shirt. Obviously this is nothing compared to what Native Americans go through. But at the end of the day, a name just isn't worth it...

 

46 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

It’s why I wouldn’t have minded Dobys as a team name, provided Larry Doby’s estate was cool with it.

 

Wasn't there like a Harry Potter character or something with that name? I've already had a handful of friends mock the name "guardians" because they didn't know the historical context. I can't even imagine the reaction if they went with Dobys. 

[bosrs1]

1 hour ago, infrared41 said:

 

I'm an old guy. When I said before political correctness was a thing, that's exactly what I meant. People were protesting the name when I was a kid in the early 70's. I remember posters and pennants that would replace the name Indians with other races or derogatory names and ask "is this OK too?" We're talking when I was 9 or 10 years old. My earliest memory of the term political correctness becoming a thing is from the mid- 80's. But I could be wrong about that. I did drink an awful lot back then.

 

I mean I'm 40 and I remember the same thing from the 80's. And I didn't drink back then. I mean Wahoo was the of a wide range of blatantly racist caricatures around the major sports. The fact he survived so far into the 21st century is just mind boggling quite frankly. And honestly I think that's part of why the Indians name itself caught so much heat. It wasn't just that the name was bad in and of itself, it was, but it was bad in the way Chiefs, Braves, Blackhawks, Eskimos, etc... were bad. But it coexisted so long with the blatantly racist Wahoo that it was intimately linked to Wahoo and IMO elevated to a level like Washington's former name, despite not being an unarguably slur like Washington's former name. 

 

That said, I fully expect there will continue to be a market, however diminishing, for Wahoo merch for many years to come. But that it will eventually be mostly if not completely black market. And that it may not last forever. I mean you don't really see the screaming Brave or the basketball playing native Warrior logo on merch anymore. Wahoo will eventually fade as those that can't give it up are shamed away from it or just naturally die off.

[Cujo]

1 hour ago, spartacat_12 said:

Well if there was going to be one city to use a superhero-inspired name, Cleveland would make the most sense. In fact, the first appearance of a character called Superman was in a magazine titled The Advance Guard of Future Civilization....