DG_ThenNowForever

European Super League

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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/sports/soccer/super-league-united-liverpool-juventus-madrid.html#click=https://t.co/AAc9jIqRmL

 

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LONDON — A group of the world’s richest and most storied soccer clubs has agreed in principle on a plan to create a breakaway European club competition that would, if it comes to fruition, upend the structures, economics and relationships that have bound global soccer for nearly a century.  After months of secret talks, the breakaway teams — which include Real Madrid and Barcelona in Spain, Manchester United and Liverpool in England, and Juventus and A.C. Milan in Italy — could make an announcement as early as Sunday, according to multiple people familiar with the plans.  The timing of the announcement appears designed to overshadow Monday’s plan by European soccer’s governing body, UEFA, to ratify a newly designed Champions League, a competition which would be decimated by the departure of its biggest teams.

 

The teams allegedly signed up are: Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Man United, Arsenal, Inter Milan, Juventus, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid. 

 

They were trying for Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, but no agreement yet. The goal is to have 16 permanent teams and play-in for remaining four spots.

 

It's all really gross, but at least a nice window into what we can expect to see sooner than later with American college football.

 

I don't know when having tons of money isn't enough. I'd rather have more than I do, but I have a mortgage. The people involved here have yachts; it's a cartoonish level of greed that prompts these ideas. I hope they fail and fail hard.

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With the looks of it, it would crush the Premier League. 

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26 minutes ago, JayMac said:

With the looks of it, it would crush the Premier League. 

Only silver lining for me is that West Ham would be one of the top teams left in the Prem.

 

With that being said, I hate this very much.

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God this sucks. Like really sucks. It is the confirmation of confirmations that these clubs value money over everything, including the honor of the game. Not that other clubs don’t as well, it’s just these are the clubs with the money and will and influence to act on it. 
 

I’m ashamed but not surprised that Liverpool are part of the clubs that are trying to make it happen. 

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2 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

They were trying for Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, but no agreement yet. The goal is to have 16 permanent teams and play-in for remaining four spots.

 

German clubs may well be steering clear - Bundesliga ownership rules state that fans have to hold a majority stake in clubs, and it's considered unlikely they'll vote in favour to join.

 

The various leagues, fan groups and UEFA are putting out statements this afternoon to strongly oppose this plan - I can't help but wonder though if it may in part be a move to get more money and ring fenced entry into the Champions League for the top European clubs, something they've been chasing for a long time. If they don't get what they want it looks like they may have a very lucrative fallback plan.

 

Also, if I were a more cynical Jaffa I might note the hypocrisy of the Premier League being opposed to a group of clubs breaking away to form a new league for the financial benefit of its members, but I'm not that cynical so I won't mention it. 😛

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Are they trying to emulate basketball EuroLeague?

3 minutes ago, Jaffa said:

 

Also, if I were a more cynical Jaffa I might note the hypocrisy of the Premier League being opposed to a group of clubs breaking away to form a new league for the financial benefit of its members, but I'm not that cynical so I won't mention it. 😛

Yes, but at least the Premier League still has a possibility that an Arsenal can theoretically be relegated. This is essentially a bunch of brats creating their own  social club. 

I guess these clubs have built a brand equity that they believe they can get the revenues to continue to buy the best players. But if the Germans clubs and maybe PSG are not interested, then this breakaway League may not have the prestige as winning a domestic or a UEFA competition.

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From what I’m reading UEFA may consider barring players on the breakaway teams from international competition altogether as a sanction which may be a huge roadblock to this actually happening.  The plus though is that it may bring a bunch of the Americans back to MLS and give us a better chance to get out of the World Cup group stage.

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15 minutes ago, DEAD! said:

I guess these clubs have built a brand equity that they believe they can get the revenues to continue to buy the best players. But if the Germans clubs and maybe PSG are not interested, then this breakaway League may not have the prestige as winning a domestic or a UEFA competition.

 

There's the suggestion that UEFA and FIFA may block players from the breakaway clubs from representing their national sides. So no World Cup, no European Championship - that might set up some interesting conversations between the breakaway clubs and their players.

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Well I don't think FIFA is ever one entity that people think of when it comes to integrity. 

I don't have much of an issue if this was just a bunch of clubs wanting to do something on their own in Europe. But a promotion/relegation system for a limited number of spots while there are permanent ones rubs me the wrong way, especially when it comes to Tottenham (LOL, at least Arsenal has had more domestic success). That is why I brought the basketball EuroLeague. It is not a surprise that Real Madrid and Barcelona (football) want to be involved.

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3 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/sports/soccer/super-league-united-liverpool-juventus-madrid.html#click=https://t.co/AAc9jIqRmL

 

 

The teams allegedly signed up are: Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Man United, Arsenal, Inter Milan, Juventus, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid. 

 

They were trying for Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, but no agreement yet. The goal is to have 16 permanent teams and play-in for remaining four spots.

 

It's all really gross, but at least a nice window into what we can expect to see sooner than later with American college football.

 

I don't know when having tons of money isn't enough. I'd rather have more than I do, but I have a mortgage. The people involved here have yachts; it's a cartoonish level of greed that prompts these ideas. I hope they fail and fail hard.

This feels like bad AU fan fiction... 

 

I'm kinda surprise Arsenal aren't part of this. Feels like, from what I read, this could actually destory UEFA and even harm FIFA over time. Greed is one thing, but this, as you said, feels like they want to be like Mr. Burns and take over the world... 

 

I really hope this fails. 

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3 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/sports/soccer/super-league-united-liverpool-juventus-madrid.html#click=https://t.co/AAc9jIqRmL

 

 

The teams allegedly signed up are: Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Man United, Arsenal, Inter Milan, Juventus, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid. 

 

They were trying for Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, but no agreement yet. The goal is to have 16 permanent teams and play-in for remaining four spots.

 

It's all really gross, but at least a nice window into what we can expect to see sooner than later with American college football.

 

I don't know when having tons of money isn't enough. I'd rather have more than I do, but I have a mortgage. The people involved here have yachts; it's a cartoonish level of greed that prompts these ideas. I hope they fail and fail hard.

As has been stated before, this has a uncomfortably elitist vibe. It ruins the integrity of not only the world of European soccer/football, but the integrity of all international sport as well. 

 

Hopefully the UEFA threat to bar players from international competition will wake those clubs up, or at least make them hesitant. If not, then it wasn't about the players or the fans, but for money. I can't see a system like this being very stable though. I think many players are smarter than that. Unfortunately, I'm not confident in the governing systems for soccer/football anymore, as FIFA has proved. We shall see where this all goes, but as a Manchester United fan, I'm revolted. This isn't love of the game, it's promoting the undermining of it. If a league of "elite" teams is allowed to go through, what isn't to say that it could start to cause a domino effect? Maybe not in the USA, but definitely in Europe.

 

Edit: I would also recommend watching pieces of what Gary Neville had to say on Sky Sports. Pretty much sums up all of we are feeling.

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1 minute ago, SSmith48 said:

As has been stated before, this has a uncomfortably elitist vibe. It ruins the integrity of not only the world of European soccer/football, but the integrity of all international sport as well. 

 

Hopefully the UEFA threat to bar players from international competition will wake those clubs up, or at least make them hesitant. If not, then it wasn't about the players or the fans, but for money. I can't see a system like this being very stable though. I think many players are smarter than that. Unfortunately, I'm not confident in the governing systems for soccer/football anymore, as FIFA has proved. We shall see where this all goes, but as a Manchester United fan, I'm revolted. This isn't love of the game, it's promoting the undermining of it. If a league of "elite" teams is allowed to go through, what isn't to say that it could start to cause a domino effect? Maybe not in the USA, but definitely in Europe.

UEFA will have to bar any players looking to play in the new super shiny "totally no evil as hell" competition. It a threat to them and their competition and to the international game. I would do the same if I was charge. 

 

Manchester United fan, actually any of the fanbases that will be part of it, needs to revolt and fast. Maybe if FIFA, seeing that fans are not supportive of said competition, might have to interfere and stop it before it get started. 

 

The USA has their own problems so it mostly Europe that will be screwed by this. Hopefully it won't happen. Then again, it feels like bad fan fiction, and I have read some really bad ones... *shrugs*

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6 hours ago, Jaffa said:

 

German clubs may well be steering clear - Bundesliga ownership rules state that fans have to hold a majority stake in clubs, and it's considered unlikely they'll vote in favour to join.

 

The various leagues, fan groups and UEFA are putting out statements this afternoon to strongly oppose this plan - I can't help but wonder though if it may in part be a move to get more money and ring fenced entry into the Champions League for the top European clubs, something they've been chasing for a long time. If they don't get what they want it looks like they may have a very lucrative fallback plan.

 

Also, if I were a more cynical Jaffa I might note the hypocrisy of the Premier League being opposed to a group of clubs breaking away to form a new league for the financial benefit of its members, but I'm not that cynical so I won't mention it. 😛

 

With light editing, I'll post the same thing I wrote on a different website regarding Bayern and Dortmund's (current) refusal to join:

 

Reluctantly, I will give credit to those two teams. They're putting their money where their mouths are. Those two clubs support the continued application of the 50% + 1 rule in German football, something I agree with, but also something that is easy enough for them to support because, you know, it's a natural inhibitor against sudden growth of clubs. The proof of that is Rasenballsport and their extremely loose adherence to the rule, and how quickly they've rocketed up the German ladder, all the way to being (at this moment in time) the #2 or #3 team in the country, in most seasons. More teams like that, and Dortmund would stand to have a real risk towards being a CL team year-in/year-out (at this moment in time, a season like this is more an aberration than something of a recurring trend). The point being, it's easy for those clubs to make the right stand there when the right stand is also (in)directly to their benefit.

 

Staying out of a Super League probably isn't to the benefit of their long-term financial prospects, but it's the principled stand to take and they're doing it, at least for now. Vielen Dank to those clubs for their integrity. I've always said the Bundesliga is my favorite league, even if my single-favorite team plays in Italy instead. The culture around the sport in that country is wonderful and much more pure than what there is in most of the other big leagues. About the only thing they get wrong - and most countries over there get this wrong, and I'm going to be bull-headed about this - is that they still allow smoking inside the stadiums. I could do without that; cigarette smoke causes all sorts of problems and reactions for me. But I'm getting off the point...

 

As for the non-bold portion of your post - that's very likely the real plan in all of this, but I really do find it disgusting how much push these clubs and leagues keep giving to UEFA on this. Think of what the European Cup looked like as recently as the early '90s. In that time, there has been a marked increase on the number of teams from the "big four" leagues if you will. They have eliminated making any clubs from those leagues have to reach the group stage through the qualifying rounds; the coefficient wars that used to be fought online between fans from Italy and England are all gone. And none of that remains enough in spite of all of that. These leagues want clubs qualifying for the group stages on the basis of their names and not because of actual sporting merit. It really, really sucks and disappoints me. And if I can choose to pick on one team here who I see being part of this mix...g-ddamned :censored: ing Tottenham has won four FA Cups, three League Cups, zero first division championships, and zero European trophies in the last 60 years. I know they're something of a big deal these days, yada fricken' yada, but the idea of them being in such a Super League while extremely successful teams from their home leagues such as Ajax, Porto, or Lyon (just to name three) aren't - or very likely aren't - is absurd to me in every way that you can imagine. 

 

Lemme just add a couple different stray thoughts while I'm here...

 

I'm generally pro-Champions League reform, as long as it's done in a tasteful and fair manner. I don't think the Champions League has enough games - of course, it's also not lost on me the added fixture congestion problems that can and would occur with more CL games - but I also don't think any solution to that involves either adding more teams from the top leagues, or making it easier for them to get to the group stages. How many teams do you need? There's supposed to be something of a merit in qualifying for the competition. Sure, midtable sides in England are probably better than the best team from Romania or Bulgaria, but that's not the point. Ferencvaros - my Father's favorite team growing up in Budapest several decades ago - reached the group stages for the first time in 25 seasons this year. They played Barcelona and Juventus home-and-away (obviously not with much, if any, attendance unfortunately). Yeah, clubs from Eastern Europe and their fans know that making a real run in the competition these days is impossible. That's not what they're after. Being able to play some of these big clubs is where it's at for them. It's what they dream about. It's already disappointing enough to think that a Romanian side winning the European Cup (see 1986) will never happen again. Don't take even more dreams away from these clubs. It's heartless.

 

Also, can you imagine what kind of ticket prices you're going to see for these games? I've never much looked into ticket price differences you might see between, I dunno, a Real Madrid vs. Barcelona game, and a Real Madrid vs. Leganes game, but I'm guessing there is one. The latter is probably just a tiny bit more affordable to that Real Madrid fan in Los Angeles who wants to go to a game at the Bernabéu some day in a manner that they can afford. If all your home games each season are against so-called "marquee" opponents? Goodbye affordable ticket prices. For anybody who's ever heard the "games gone" meme, stuff like this is exactly what it pertains to. The top level of this sport continuing to distance itself further and further away from the common person.

 

Ok, I think I'm done now.

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This is another perfect illustration of why I just don't see the appeal of soccer. Even modern college football isn't this shameless in its lack of parity.

 

Soccer has teams all over the world, yet it seems hopeless and pointless being a fan of any of them besides this small handful of teams in Europe. There's no draft, the marquee franchises can just swoop in and borrow your best players whenever they want, and your team not getting demoted to the minor leagues is like winning the Super Bowl for most fanbases. What a crappy business model.

 

This "Super League" just reeks of hubris. What these big-name teams don't seem to realize is that they can't all win the championship every year. Some of these teams are going to start losing a lot more often than they're accustomed to. How long will the bandwagon fans stick around for that? I think this is why we haven't seen the Alabamas and Clemsons leave the NCAA - they're smart enough to know they still need the rest of their sport.

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Glad that Shamrock Rovers are going to be unaffected by this, seeing as League of Ireland is nice and small and no one cares about the league.

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On 4/18/2021 at 7:07 PM, Lights Out said:

Ehh, I'd say North American sports are more akin to franchised businesses (think McDonald's or Planet Fitness) than socialism. And soccer is just anarchy. I don't know how people accept something as ridiculous as the loan system, which makes building a team nearly impossible for most of the sport while the richest teams get to play rotisserie league all year. Imagine if the Nets could just borrow Embiid for the playoffs. The NBA would be a complete farce.

 

I'm not so much going to discuss the content of your post all that much - I've already written plenty above - but what I will say is that one of the greatest ironies I've ever known to exist is that the United States (and I'm lumping in Canada with this just a bit) is one of the most pro-capitalistic countries on the planet, loves capitalism, it's what the country was built on, etc., and our sporting models in the top levels of all the major sports are remarkably socialist, all the while the stereotypically-socialist Europe and their sporting models are based on some seriously hardcore capitalism. Figure that one out.

 

EDIT: fixed a formatting problem

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Ehh, I'd say North American sports are more akin to franchised businesses (think McDonald's or Planet Fitness) than socialism. And soccer is just anarchy. I don't know how people accept something as ridiculous as the loan system, which makes building a team nearly impossible for most of the sport while the richest teams get to play rotisserie league all year. Imagine if the Nets could just borrow Embiid for the playoffs. The NBA would be a complete farce.

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Leicester City had a miracle run a few years back...and that's about it. Yes, generally, three teams are competing at the top of each major European league and the remaining drama is promotion/relegation.

 

I recognize the talent in European leagues, but a lot of the maneuvering reinforces my love for MLS. Our American league isn't as good as the European leagues (or Liga MX), but that's okay. It's good enough for a television product and the in-person experience remains affordable and fun.

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I don't begrudge big clubs to be able to get as much revenue as possible and being able to spend money on players without the financial restraints of a salary cap. It should be up to other clubs to find a financial backer, have some level sustained success and find ways to attract more fans.

I don't even hate the idea of some clubs just wanting to have a side competition on their own. I simply don't like how the format is being presented. 

 

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This is a terrible idea, and it looks like it’ll have some serious ramifications if the clubs actually try to make it happen.

 

UEFA, the football associations of England, Spain and Italy, along with their domestic leagues and FIFA itself has released a statement saying if any of these clubs play in this Super League, those clubs will be banned from playing in any other competition at domestic, European or world level. Furthermore, any player that plays in this could be denied the opportunity to represent their country’s national teams (meaning they’ll be banned from participating in the World Cup).

 

I understand that’s is highly ironic for me to criticize this as a fan of two of the greediest leagues in the world (NFL and NBA), but this level of greed shown from these European clubs is on another level. I hope this gets crushed and the teams involved suffer consequences for attempting this. Supporters from all of these clubs are already releasing statements of their own in vehement opposition to this league.
 

I hope they follow through with their threat. Won’t be any money to make if their supporters don’t watch, or fill their stadiums for matches. 

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