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7 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

Once that battle is fought, a European league consisting of the big clubs that are responsible for sustaining football's enormous worldwide popularity will happen. And it will be glorious.

 

All of the billionaires running these teams could divest tomorrow and football's enormous worldwide popularity would be sustained just fine.

 

We don't need them; they need us.

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7 hours ago, Red Wolf said:

Instead, we got a proposal that decided that some of the best teams right now would get in no matter their place on the table. Not sure how being able to skip over the gross lower class citizens provides us with the best teams. Can the best teams not beat the poors? And again, it's going to be a lot less likely that some billionaire prick is going to buy a club like Crystal Palace and push the envelope of what makes financial sense if six teams in their league are automatically ahead of them just because.

 

That is a valid point. And upthread someone mentioned the idea of a Super League team just not trying, given that it couldn't be relegated. So there would have to be some kind of administrative means of altering the makeup of the league, should conditions change.

 

For example, if Fulham or Southampton were to finally live up to their potential and become the next Man City by signing world-class players and developing a global fanbase, or if Atlético Madrid or Napoli were to dramatically expand their already impressive global followings, then that club would have to be welcomed into the elite group of clubs.

 

Conversely, if one of the current elite consistently failed to pull its weight, while still claiming a share of the revenue, then the Super League must have a mechanism to kick that club out.

 

But please note that it could not just be straight promotion and relegation. After all, in any league, someone has to come in last. If AC Milan or Barcelona finish at the bottom of a table of giants, they are still AC Milan and Barcelona, and still merit a place amongst the elite.

 

Also, not every league champion is a big club. Leicester won the Premier League recently, and could conceivably have done so again this year. But nobody imagines that this means that that club belongs amongst the world's biggest clubs.

 

If, in this recent attempt at a Super League, there was no such plan in place to deal with the potentially changing fortunes of clubs over time, then that is another respect in which the attempt was incompetently pursued, and deserved to fail.

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From Monday, before clubs started pulling out left and right:

 

 

Corden articulates very well why football fans are so mad at the ESL proposal. And the Oscars analogy might be one of the better ones I've heard to explain it to non-football fans.

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3 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

But please note that it could not just be straight promotion and relegation. After all, in any league, someone has to come in last. If AC Milan or Barcelona finish at the bottom of a table of giants, they are still AC Milan and Barcelona, and still married a place amongst the elite.

 

Also, not every league champion is a big club. Leicester won the Premier League recently, and could conceivably have done so again this year. But nobody imagines that this means that that club belongs amongst the world's biggest clubs.

 

Based on the current standings, I would say that Leicester belongs more than Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, and Arsenal, all of which would have been guaranteed a spot over a team they're performing worse than.

 

5 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

If, in this recent attempt at a Super league, there was no such plan in place to deal with the potentially changing fortunes of clubs over time, then that is another respect in which the attempt was incompetently pursued, and deserved to fail.

 

The whole point of the Super League was to consolidate power amongst a few elites. It was specifically designed so that the changing fortunes of clubs wouldn't be reflected. The richest weren't satisfied with having every advantage in the sport, they needed to outright rig the game.

 

Now, what they could do is have an international competition between all of the best European clubs based on how well they do each season. I think something radical like that could be very popular.

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16 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

For example, if Fulham or Southampton were to finally live up to their potential and become the next Man City by signing world-class players and developing a global fanbase, or if Atlético Madrid or Napoli were to dramatically expand their already impressive global followings, then that club would have to be welcomed into the elite group of clubs.

 

Conversely, if one of the current elite consistently failed to pull its weight, while still claiming a share of the revenue, then the Super League must have a mechanism to kick that club out.

The whole point of the Super League was to prevent this exact thing from ever happening!

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14 hours ago, DEAD! said:

 

I would say any punishment would have to come from UEFA much like how they banned English clubs from European competition in the 80s. 

If UEFA decided to ban them, but not Slavia Prague and other teams for actual social issues that impact players and fans physically, I could see the English press flipping on them pretty quickly. 

1 hour ago, Digby said:

Even Liverpool had lost its lustre not that long ago and FSG had saved the day (at least for a little while). For all the pluses and minuses of a traditionally mediocre club like Leicester or Man City moving from community club to waves of foreign money ... I think it was an Athletic piece about this that said FSG et al were pulling up the drawbridge after already having crossed.

 

And at some point the relentless pushing of commerce overshadows even the best football on the pitch. We might be there already even without ESL. 

I remember when Tom Hicks came in and tried changing things. He got chased off and FSG came in and saved the day. Now I wonder what happens if they sell the team. It's highly unlikely there's an English group willing to pay the money that is required to meet Liverpool's current evaluation. And if this league had taken off? Who knows what their worth would be.

 

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21 minutes ago, crashcarson15 said:

The whole point of the Super League was to prevent this exact thing from ever happening!

Exactly. The “mechanism” he’s describing is called promotion and relegation. 

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1 minute ago, MJWalker45 said:

If UEFA decided to ban them, but not Slavia Prague and other teams for actual social issues that impact players and fans physically, I could see the English press flipping on them pretty quickly. 

 

I would make a case that, as it stands, they should ban Slavia Prague way before they ban the "Super League" teams. That racist incident did actually happen.

I probably should have made myself clear, at worst, this ESL threat seems more grandstanding than anything. This idea looks dead and buried. But they did not break any rules as far as I know. They just made a lot of people angry , especially their own supporters. But any sanctions/punishments, they would face should come from UEFA, NOT their domestic leagues (Premier League, La Liga, Serie A). The threat wasn't to break away from the domestic leagues. 

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I initially (and wrongly) though the ESL would be those 16 member teams leaving their leagues; I didn't connect that it was a Champions League replacement.

 

Now that they know they can't replace the Champions League, could they do my initial thought? Would those clubs leave their domestic leagues and just create a "super league" that's above all others?

 

It still would necessarily nuke the Champions League, but it would also remove the threat of domestic league sanctions, and fundamentally wouldn't be too much different than the creation of the original Premier League?

 

I'm not rooting for that to happen, clearly. But it feels like there's always a worst gambit up the sleeves of liars and scoundrels. A new pan-European domestic league seems to be an obvious next step.

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9 minutes ago, DEAD! said:

I probably should have made myself clear, at worst, this ESL threat seems more grandstanding than anything. This idea looks dead and buried.

 

... for now. As long as there are billionaire owners who want to make more money, I expect this sort of thing will rear its ugly head one way or another every few years. At some point, either the fans will have been down enough, or the owners come up with language and/or a format sufficiently mollifying, that everyone will just sort of shrug their shoulders and get out of the way.

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6 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I initially (and wrongly) though the ESL would be those 16 member teams leaving their leagues; I didn't connect that it was a Champions League replacement.

 

Now that they know they can't replace the Champions League, could they do my initial thought? Would those clubs leave their domestic leagues and just create a "super league" that's above all others?

 

 

As much crap as Manchester United got in 1999-2000 for dropping  out of the FA Cup because they wanted to play the first version of the FIFA Club World Cup, and the conflict between them and the FA then, this would be the true nuclear option with the six biggest EPL clubs shooting themselves in the foot, slicing off an arm with a machete and stabbing themselves in the toes with punji sticks.  They may as well stop playing in England and make like the PLL, picking spots around the world to play each week. Finding players that would be willing to play in that competition would be even more difficult than the Super League eventually was. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/united-opt-out-of-fa-cup-1.201843

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1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Conversely, if one of the current elite consistently failed to pull its weight, while still claiming a share of the revenue, then the Super League must have a mechanism to kick that club out.

I think you missed the entire point of the ESL and why everyone is so ticked off about it

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1 hour ago, Red Wolf said:

Based on the current standings, I would say that Leicester belongs more than Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, and Arsenal, all of which would have been guaranteed a spot over a team they're performing worse than.

 

Those clubs are performing worse than Leicester right now.  But the point is that the standings at any given moment do not necessarily tell us who the biggest clubs are.  Let us recall that, after Leicester won the league, N'Golo Kante moved to Chelsea.  He left the reigning champions to join a team that had placed 10th; but he was still moving up. Manchester United have not won the league for something like eight years; yet they remain the biggest club in England, and one of the very biggest in the world.  Leicester City are beloved to their faithful, and rightfully so; their title run under Ranieri was a great story.  But that doesn't qualify them to pal around with the Man Uniteds and the Real Madrids of the world.

 

 

1 hour ago, crashcarson15 said:
1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

For example, if Fulham or Southampton were to finally live up to their potential and become the next Man City by signing world-class players and developing a global fanbase, or if Atlético Madrid or Napoli were to dramatically expand their already impressive global followings, then that club would have to be welcomed into the elite group of clubs.

 

Conversely, if one of the current elite consistently failed to pull its weight, while still claiming a share of the revenue, then the Super League must have a mechanism to kick that club out.

The whole point of the Super League was to prevent this exact thing from ever happening!

 

To prevent this from ever happening would be a mistake.  "Ever" is a long time.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Crabcake said:
1 hour ago, crashcarson15 said:

The whole point of the Super League was to prevent this exact thing from ever happening!

Exactly. The “mechanism” he’s describing is called promotion and relegation. 

 

No.  Promotion and relegation happen every year, and are based on that season's finish.  By contrast, the emergence of a new club amongst the ranks of the global elite would be an extraordinary event.  It could conceivably happen, though it is a rare occurence.  Still, there would have to be a contingency for it, if this situation should come up maybe once in a decade or so.

 

 

18 minutes ago, NormMacdonald said:
1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Conversely, if one of the current elite consistently failed to pull its weight, while still claiming a share of the revenue, then the Super League must have a mechanism to kick that club out.

I think you missed the entire point of the ESL and why everyone is so ticked off about it

 

The concept of a closed league angered people who are accustomed to promotion and relegation.  And it raised the (legitimate) question of: what if a team decided not to compete, knowing that it couldn't be relegated?  

 

In all partnerships, there is a mechanism for a particular partner to be removed for cause; and a competently-organised Super League would have such an emergency provision, in order to disincentivise any team from coasting, and in order to protect the status of the league by expelling a team that went ahead and did coast.

 

 

39 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I initially (and wrongly) though the ESL would be those 16 member teams leaving their leagues; I didn't connect that it was a Champions League replacement.

 

Now that they know they can't replace the Champions League, could they do my initial thought? Would those clubs leave their domestic leagues and just create a "super league" that's above all others?

 

The creation of a European top flight, with the current domestic top flights being redefined as constituting the second tier of a European pyramid, is attractive in theory.  And this sort of set-up could not be a closed league; it would have to have promotion and relegation.  But the problem with that is the same problem that caused the Champions League to award multiple spots to certain leagues: all leagues are not equal. The second- and third-placed clubs in England, Germany, Spain, and Italy are always going to be superior to the champions of just about every other league.

 

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If owners are so worried about their ballooning payrolls there's a simple solution for that.  Analytics.  Go the baseball route.  If the data doesn't support backing a Brinks truck up to a guy don't do it.  You don't need to throw transfer fees and salaries around just because you can then cry poverty.  The entire system shouldn't be upended because Barça and Real can't evaluate their rosters properly.

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36 minutes ago, LMU said:

If owners are so worried about their ballooning payrolls there's a simple solution for that.  Analytics.  Go the baseball route.  If the data doesn't support backing a Brinks truck up to a guy don't do it.  You don't need to throw transfer fees and salaries around just because you can then cry poverty.  The entire system shouldn't be upended because Barça and Real can't evaluate their rosters properly.

The most hilarious/depressing part about this is this is essentially exactly what Liverpool did. They embraced analytics all the way up the club ladder, and this led them to buy players like Sadio Mané, Andy Robertson, and Mo Salah. All guys who had shown flashes of brilliance or potential at their clubs but weren’t the finished product. Combine their potentials with Klopp’s incredible management and those three guys became absolute pillars of the current team. 
 

Now, admittedly, the two pieces which put Liverpool over the top and allowed them to win the PL and UCL (Van Dijk and Alisson) were big-money splashes. But the core of Liverpool’s team which made them arguably the best club in the world for two years was made up of academy products and buy-low players. If anyone should’ve seen the wisdom of “moneyball” in soccer and how you can achieve success without following the Galactico model, it should’ve been John Henry. 
 

It really is a shame, because I thought Liverpool fans were too hard on FSG and I think Henry’s ownership really was a good thing and he did a lot of good here. Let’s not forget that Anfield underwent a major renovation under FSG that had been promised for years by previous ownership. And now, if he does sell (and probably even if he doesn’t), Henry’s legacy will be one of greed, when a legitimate argument could have been made against that in the past. 

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If fans are allowed on the last match day, it should be interesting to see how those teams are welcomed on to the field.

 

WEEK 38

Arsenal vs Brighton 

Aston Villa vs Chelsea

Liverpool vs Crystal Palace

Man City vs Everton

Leicester City vs Spurs 

Wolves vs Manchester United 

 

Wolves v United may be the nastiest of them, I wouldn't be surprised that the three on the road aren't at the stadium 3 hours before the match, just to avoid stuff getting tossed at their buses. I also wonder how City fans will react during the trophy presentation if any of the ownership group is there, which they should be even if they aren't at the podium.

 

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9 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

If fans are allowed on the last match day, it should be interesting to see how those teams are welcomed on to the field.

 

WEEK 38

Arsenal vs Brighton 

Aston Villa vs Chelsea

Liverpool vs Crystal Palace

Man City vs Everton

Leicester City vs Spurs 

Wolves vs Manchester United 

 

Wolves v United may be the nastiest of them, I wouldn't be surprised that the three on the road aren't at the stadium 3 hours before the match, just to avoid stuff getting tossed at their buses. I also wonder how City fans will react during the trophy presentation if any of the ownership group is there, which they should be even if they aren't at the podium.

 

 

I am sure football fans are very rational and will be respectful not to do anything stupid, because they know that even the players and managerial staff were all against the ESL... 

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5 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

If fans are allowed on the last match day, it should be interesting to see how those teams are welcomed on to the field.

 

WEEK 38

Arsenal vs Brighton 

Aston Villa vs Chelsea

Liverpool vs Crystal Palace

Man City vs Everton

Leicester City vs Spurs 

Wolves vs Manchester United 

 

Wolves v United may be the nastiest of them, I wouldn't be surprised that the three on the road aren't at the stadium 3 hours before the match, just to avoid stuff getting tossed at their buses. I also wonder how City fans will react during the trophy presentation if any of the ownership group is there, which they should be even if they aren't at the podium.

 

 

Unfortunately it will be the players and people that had nothing to do with the decision-making that will bear the brunt of the fans frustration.

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10 minutes ago, See Red said:

 

Unfortunately it will be the players and people that had nothing to do with the decision-making that will bear the brunt of the fans frustration.

.. unlike say... Schalke...

 

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1 hour ago, Crabcake said:

The most hilarious/depressing part about this is this is essentially exactly what Liverpool did. They embraced analytics all the way up the club ladder, and this led them to buy players like Sadio Mané, Andy Robertson, and Mo Salah. All guys who had shown flashes of brilliance or potential at their clubs but weren’t the finished product. Combine their potentials with Klopp’s incredible management and those three guys became absolute pillars of the current team. 
 

Now, admittedly, the two pieces which put Liverpool over the top and allowed them to win the PL and UCL (Van Dijk and Alisson) were big-money splashes. But the core of Liverpool’s team which made them arguably the best club in the world for two years was made up of academy products and buy-low players. If anyone should’ve seen the wisdom of “moneyball” in soccer and how you can achieve success without following the Galactico model, it should’ve been John Henry. 
 

It really is a shame, because I thought Liverpool fans were too hard on FSG and I think Henry’s ownership really was a good thing and he did a lot of good here. Let’s not forget that Anfield underwent a major renovation under FSG that had been promised for years by previous ownership. And now, if he does sell (and probably even if he doesn’t), Henry’s legacy will be one of greed, when a legitimate argument could have been made against that in the past. 


As a Liverpool fan myself, I think you’re spot on here. John Henry/FSG rescued Liverpool from what they’d become under Gillette and Hicks. 
 

Again, I agree with you on the last part; John Henry’s legacy will forever be tarnished. For all of the good that has taken place under FSG, we know what they really value. Even though the Super League isn’t happening (for now), yesterday’s announcement hasn’t led the bad feelings to suddenly vanish. I’m asking myself if I want to be a Liverpool supporter anymore. The trust has been broken. How long will be it before something like the ESL is attempted again? This might sound like a silly analogy, but it’s almost like finding out you’ve been cheated on and they’re asking for forgiveness and hoping you’ll take them back as if nothing happened. 

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