2021 NFL Season - Adults Arguing About Matt Stafford

[BBTV]

2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

 

Every sentence in this argument applies to Mike Trout, except for the winning a title part.

right. And I’ve been consistent that Mike Trout doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be a HOFer.  
 

Winning a title isn’t the only thing that matters. You can “make a difference” without winning a title. He’s made no difference, had no impact on the game, and if he never played, nothing would be different about the history of the game. 
 

[BBTV]

2 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

Just curious, would apply the same standard to someone like Ernie Banks if we were debating the baseball HOF?

 

Anyway, by today's football HOF standards (or lack thereof) Stafford is a Hall of Famer. By infrared41's football HOF standards, he ain't even close.

im not an expert on Ernie Banks, but it stands to reason that anyone that’s the face of one of the oldest franchises in the sport made an impact, even if he didn’t win a title. Baseball is also a little different because the “back of card” numbers were (up until the roid guys” so important, and known to every kid who grew up a fan. 500 HRs was a holy grail, and for a time, I could name everyone in that club. 

[jamesizzo]

 

[tBBP]

12 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

If Megatron is a hall of famer (and he is), shouldn't also the guy throwing him the ball?

 

There's so many ways i could go with that...but I'll just say this: note the many overnight household names Peyton Manning made in Indianapolis. Marvin Harrison definitely deserves his Canton nod. Reggie Wayne could make a half-decent case. Dallas Clark, to his credit, was at least serviceable (and he at least made a Hall of Fame play). But Pierre Garcon? Mike Gonzalez? Austin Collie? Jacob Tamme? Yeah.  But this also marks something else: look at Peyton's influence on that team, especially from about 2009 and onward but particularly the year he missed due to injury. They went from I think 14 wins the previous season to like two the year he was out. That's Hall of Fame influence right there. How well would Matt Stafford's play/stats have been had he not had Calvin Johnson to throw to for all those years?

 

10 hours ago, Rockstar Matt said:

Sherman echoes my thoughts exactly. I know the HOF bar has been lowered, but for me Stafford needs to win more chips to get into this conversation. He’s playing in an era with hyper inflated QB stats (and volume stats are the WORST way to evaluate a QB). I don’t care if he’s top 10 in this era. That’s not good enough for me.
 

The Hall of Fame is suppose to be the best of even the great, elite players in our league. He has never been considered one of the top 3 or 4 QB’s in his era. At any point. Not even this season, his championship season. 
 

If Matt Stafford is a Hall of Fame QB, then so is Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Derek Carr, Matt Ryan and Kirk Cousins. 
 

IMO, this season put Stafford ahead of the guys I just listed, but not on the level of the all-time great Hall of Fame QB’s he played against.

 

See, I respect this...especially coming from an admitted LA homer.  Big props, lil' homie. 

 

4 hours ago, oldschoolvikings said:

 

Again, a lame duck organization that he quietly supported and collected his checks.

 

I know he has impressive stats, but living here and watching it happen, those stats came 75% after the game was long out of reach. Local radio guy nicknamed Matt Stafford "Stat Padford".

 

That's just dirty.

 

(God I forgot how much I miss Detroit sometimes...)

[DCarp1231]

1 hour ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

People are saying you're trolling because you tried to make it sound like the Lions traded Stafford for Goff straight up. It was clearly a downgrade at the position, which is why they got a boatload of picks in exchange for taking on his contract.

 

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

you’re not even responding about the point you made where I called out your trolling.   It has nothing to do wether you think Stafford is a HOFer. That’s a defendable argument, even if I disagree with it. 

I’m still not trolling? What? My point was that Stafford and Goff both got put into crappy situations. Stafford spent 12 years in Detroit. A franchise that literally did nothing beyond Calvin Johnson to try to get him a ring. You can’t do much when you have nothing to work with. On the other side, Goff had some decent years in LA. Including a SB appearance, but now he’s subject to the same dismay as his counterpart was.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

41 minutes ago, tBBP said:

There's so many ways i could go with that...but I'll just say this: note the many overnight household names Peyton Manning made in Indianapolis. Marvin Harrison definitely deserves his Canton nod. Reggie Wayne could make a half-decent case. Dallas Clark, to his credit, was at least serviceable (and he at least made a Hall of Fame play). But Pierre Garcon? Mike Gonzalez? Austin Collie? Jacob Tamme? Yeah.  But this also marks something else: look at Peyton's influence on that team, especially from about 2009 and onward but particularly the year he missed due to injury. They went from I think 14 wins the previous season to like two the year he was out. That's Hall of Fame influence right there. How well would Matt Stafford's play/stats have been had he not had Calvin Johnson to throw to for all those years?

 

You raise good points. Would Jerry Rice be Jerry Rice without Joe Montana? Hard to say...but probably yes. He didn't turn into a bum in Oakland (as far as I remember) and they both helped each other be great. Key difference, of course, is they won a buttload of titles and Detroit won zero.

 

I'm not going to die on any hill of Stafford being elite. Guy won a Super Bowl and that's not bad.

[infrared41]

2 hours ago, tBBP said:

How well would Matt Stafford's play/stats have been had he not had Calvin Johnson to throw to for all those years?

 

Here's another question I'll throw into the mix: Would Stafford have similar stats in a different era? For example, I think most of us would agree that Montana, Elway, and Marino would be just as good, if not better, playing today as they were in the 80's. Same deal for Kelly, Aikman, and Favre in the 90's. I think most of us would also agree that Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers would play well in any era. I'm not sure you can say that about Stafford.

 

Speaking of Elway, he did what he did in the 80's throwing to a bunch of guys named Vance Johnson. Imagine Elway with a WR like Calvin Johnson.

 

 

[spartacat_12]

2 hours ago, DCarp1231 said:

I’m still not trolling? What? My point was that Stafford and Goff both got put into crappy situations. Stafford spent 12 years in Detroit. A franchise that literally did nothing beyond Calvin Johnson to try to get him a ring. You can’t do much when you have nothing to work with. On the other side, Goff had some decent years in LA. Including a SB appearance, but now he’s subject to the same dismay as his counterpart was.

 

Goff had some decent years because of the team around him. As soon as Gurley fell off and the o-line started to show some cracks, he got exposed. McVay didn't even trust him with the full playbook.

 

I don't know if Stafford is a HoFer, but there's not a chance Goff would have been able to win a Super Bowl with the team putting up 43 total rushing yards.

[BBTV]

2 hours ago, DCarp1231 said:

I’m still not trolling? What? My point was that Stafford and Goff both got put into crappy situations. Stafford spent 12 years in Detroit.

 

You are trolling.  You made a point, then defended it with a different point from the one you got called out on, and now we're on a third point.

 

This is where I called you a troll, and I stand by it. :

 

6 hours ago, DCarp1231 said:

The Lions apparently thought they’d get somewhere with Goff instead of Stafford, but ended up sinking even lower

 

This statement is so obviously incorrect that there's no way to say it's not trolling.  You know the trade had nothing to do with Goff, or them thinking they were better off than Stafford.  You 100% know that.  Defend your point, don't get upset about being called out then defend some other stance.

 

 

[GFB]

38 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

Here's another question I'll throw into the mix: Would Stafford have similar stats in a different era? For example, I think most of us would agree that Montana, Elway, and Marino would be just as good, if not better, playing today as they were in the 80's. Same deal for Kelly, Aikman, and Favre in the 90's. I think most of us would also agree that Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers would play well in any era. I'm not sure you can say that about Stafford.

 

Stafford playing in another era would be just as effective as Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts or Sonny Jurgenson.. any QB with a big arm and a penchant for airing the ever-loving crap out of the ball.  Sure, he was helped by having Calvin Johnson or Cooper Kupp like any QB would, but Stafford's numbers actually improved from 2015 (Calvin's last season) to 2016 and he has elevated the play of several receivers like Golden Tate, Nate Burleson, Marvin Jones, and Odell Beckham (think of Odell catching passes from Baker Mayfield a few months ago) who weren't the same players without Stafford. 

 

QBs go into the Hall of Fame via several different criteria, and longevity is one of them. If Stafford plays for 5 more seasons, he'll likely end up 5th all time in passing yards and I don't see how you can keep him out with numbers like that. Warren Moon only had one second team All-Pro to his name with no playoff success, Tony Romo seems like a good bet to get in next year, and Ben Roethlesberger appears to be a lock for the Hall of Fame despite barely sniffing a Super Bowl and stat-padding for the last decade and almost never being in the best QB discussion.

 

Stafford is at least in the Romo/Big Ben tier and if this was a different conversation about tightening up the hall so the Eli Mannings or Tony Romos aren't considered or a more strict Hall of Fame like baseball, then that's a different animal entirely. But as things stand I don't know how you could keep him out after another 3-5 years of elite production.

[DCarp1231]

9 minutes ago, BBTV said:

 

You are trolling.  You made a point, then defended it with a different point from the one you got called out on, and now we're on a third point.

 

This is where I called you a troll, and I stand by it. :

 

 

This statement is so obviously incorrect that there's no way to say it's not trolling.  You know the trade had nothing to do with Goff, or them thinking they were better off than Stafford.  You 100% know that.  Defend your point, don't get upset about being called out then defend some other stance.

 

 

I don’t think you understand what trolling is because it’s definitely not what I’m doing.

 

Trolling would be me equating Stafford and Goff to godsend angels or saying something like Bill Belichick did all the work for New England’s 6 rings

[dont care]

4 hours ago, tBBP said:

 

There's so many ways i could go with that...but I'll just say this: note the many overnight household names Peyton Manning made in Indianapolis. Marvin Harrison definitely deserves his Canton nod. Reggie Wayne could make a half-decent case. Dallas Clark, to his credit, was at least serviceable (and he at least made a Hall of Fame play). But Pierre Garcon? Mike Gonzalez? Austin Collie? Jacob Tamme? Yeah.  But this also marks something else: look at Peyton's influence on that team, especially from about 2009 and onward but particularly the year he missed due to injury. They went from I think 14 wins the previous season to like two the year he was out. That's Hall of Fame influence right there. How well would Matt Stafford's play/stats have been had he not had Calvin Johnson to throw to for all those years?

 

 

See, I respect this...especially coming from an admitted LA homer.  Big props, lil' homie. 

 

 

That's just dirty.

 

(God I forgot how much I miss Detroit sometimes...)

Well there’s 6 years without Calvin to throw to that still shows him to be a top 10 qb at worst

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, GFB said:

 

Stafford playing in another era would be just as effective as Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts or Sonny Jurgenson.. any QB with a big arm and a penchant for airing the ever-loving crap out of the ball.  Sure, he was helped by having Calvin Johnson or Cooper Kupp like any QB would, but Stafford's numbers actually improved from 2015 (Calvin's last season) to 2016 and he has elevated the play of several receivers like Golden Tate, Nate Burleson, Marvin Jones, and Odell Beckham (think of Odell catching passes from Baker Mayfield a few months ago) who weren't the same players without Stafford. 

 

QBs go into the Hall of Fame via several different criteria, and longevity is one of them. If Stafford plays for 5 more seasons, he'll likely end up 5th all time in passing yards and I don't see how you can keep him out with numbers like that. Warren Moon only had one second team All-Pro to his name with no playoff success, Tony Romo seems like a good bet to get in next year, and Ben Roethlesberger appears to be a lock for the Hall of Fame despite barely sniffing a Super Bowl and stat-padding for the last decade and almost never being in the best QB discussion.

 

Stafford is at least in the Romo/Big Ben tier and if this was a different conversation about tightening up the hall so the Eli Mannings or Tony Romos aren't considered or a more strict Hall of Fame like baseball, then that's a different animal entirely. But as things stand I don't know how you could keep him out after another 3-5 years of elite production.

 

Dan Marino played in a SB, was in TV commercials, and was instantly recognizable to even non-football fans back in the late '80s-early '90s.

 

Warren Moon was among the first trailblazing black QBs and was part of an offensive revolution.  Also lit it up for multiple teams.

 

I don't think that not having championships diminishes their HOF credentials at all, unlike how I feel about guys like Stafford and Matt Ryan (prior to Stafford's recent title... which I still don't think should make him a lock.)

 

As for the Romo/Big Ben tier, lol - how is there any universe in which Romo and Big Ben are in the same tier?  A 2-time SB champion that played for nearly 20 years and was nearly-impossible to bring down vs a guy who didn't play half that long and choked every time he made the playoffs.  Romo had a good career, but he's not in the same tier as Ben.

 

If Tony Romo gets in, then Donovan McNabb needs to get in (and he shouldn't either.)  McNabb had 10x the career that Tony Romo had.  And if they get in, then Infrared41, IceCap, me, you, and that troll that doesn't know what things mean and can't argue a point should all get in.

[ManillaToad]

Matt Stafford:

1x SB Champion

1x Pro Bowl

 

Mark Rypien:

2x SB Champion

SB MVP

2nd-team All Pro

2x Pro Bowl

 

[SFGiants58]

8 minutes ago, BBTV said:

As for the Romo/Big Ben tier, lol - how is there any universe in which Romo and Big Ben are in the same tier?  A 2-time SB champion that played for nearly 20 years and was nearly-impossible to bring down

 

Stares at the court system handling "The Case" and the motorcycle he crashed

 

NGL, coming back from a motorcycle crash that severe was amazing.

 

[tBBP]

2 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

Here's another question I'll throw into the mix: Would Stafford have similar stats in a different era? For example, I think most of us would agree that Montana, Elway, and Marino would be just as good, if not better, playing today as they were in the 80's. Same deal for Kelly, Aikman, and Favre in the 90's. I think most of us would also agree that Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers would play well in any era. I'm not sure you can say that about Stafford.

 

Speaking of Elway, he did what he did in the 80's throwing to a bunch of guys named Vance Johnson. Imagine Elway with a WR like Calvin Johnson.

 

 

 

All this...which makes what Dan Marino pulled off during his career even more amazing. And unless you paid attention to those teams, most couldn't name one WR he threw to, especially in the '80s/early 90s. (Some of us know the Marks Brothers...but good luck with any beyond that). Could you imagine Marino with any of Randy Moss, Megatron, Larry Fitzgerald, or any semblance of a running game?? 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

Matt Stafford:

1x SB Champion

1x Pro Bowl

 

Mark Rypien:

2x SB Champion

SB MVP

2nd-team All Pro

2x Pro Bowl

 

 

To further fuel this little fire...

 

Trent Dilfer:

1x Super Bowl Champion

1x Pro Bowl (yes, folks--it actually happened once)

 

7 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Stares at the court system handling "The Case" and the motorcycle he crashed

 

NGL, coming back from a motorcycle crash that severe was amazing.

 

 

Having benn probably four blocks away from the 10th Street Bridge and tunnel where that happened on the day that he crashed that (that's the tunnel in the background there)...I can't even begin to tell you how lambasted Ben was after that. The sexual misconduct allegations did nothing to help--actually, for a good while back then, a whole lot of Pittsburgh couldn't stand him. But SUPERB OWLS cure all, and so, well...you know. 

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

If Tony Romo gets in,

 

If Tony Romo gets in, my first move will be to start the Bernie Kosar for the HOF committee - and as much as I enjoyed him during his time with the Browns, he has no business being in any HOF discussion. Kosar has a better HOF case than Romo and Kosar has no case.  And don't even get me started on Ken Anderson at that point. Tony Romo is not, in any way, a HOF QB. Not even close.

[dont care]

If Romo gets in it will be because he’s a media darling and not anything he did on the field.

[Red Comet]

Donovan McNabb belongs in the HoF before Tony Romo. At least he won more than one playoff game.

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, ManillaToad said:

Matt Stafford:

1x SB Champion

1x Pro Bowl

 

Mark Rypien:

2x SB Champion

SB MVP

2nd-team All Pro

2x Pro Bowl

 

 

Jim Plunkett

2x SB Champion (and unlike Rypien, Plunkett started in both of his SB appearances.)

1x SB MVP

1980 Comeback Player of the Year