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2021 NHL Offseason - Let's Get Kraken


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15 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

It's been clear for years that the majority of the Coyotes fanbase live in the East Valley, which is why the team has been pursuing a Scottsdale/Tempe arena. Auston Matthews has put a bigger spotlight on the grassroots development in the area, and the Coyotes just drafted Josh Doan in the 2nd round, another local product. Arizona State's hockey program is already quite respected after only 6 seasons in Div 1.

 

Obviously the Coyotes situation has been a mess for majority of their existence, but I hate that a large segment of the hockey community seems to be rooting for them to fail. 

 

You mean the transplanted Blackhawks/Red Wings/Bruins fans that only come out for games against their team, all live in the East Valley. (But you'll see, once we get this arena, we're gonna convert them! For real this time! Even though it's never been easier to follow out-of-market sports teams while pretending the local team doesn't even exist!)

 

If there really was a massive Coyotes following in Phoenix (East Valley or otherwise), they'd find a way to get to Coyotes games and give the team a respectable amount of support on a year-in year-out basis. It's that simple. The arena being in Glendale is a weak excuse; Ottawa (until recently, when the organization went to hell and Eugene Melnyk turned into Peter Pocklington) did just fine under similar circumstances. If people in Largo and Clearwater can get to Lightning games, people in Tempe and Mesa can get to Coyotes games.

 

The Coyotes aren't some sort of cultural institution down there. They don't deserve any credit for whatever grassroots progress has been made. And yeah, I do root for them to fail. After all the taxpayer money they've siphoned off over the years (with the help of corrupt public officials) just to live one more day, they deserve the needle. More fans for ASU. College sports is all Arizona really cares about anyway.

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18 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

Obviously the Coyotes situation has been a mess for majority of their existence, but I hate that a large segment of the hockey community seems to be rooting for them to fail. 

 

I'm not rooting for them to fail, just for the NHL and the other appropriate authorities to acknowledge that they are failing.

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5 hours ago, who do you think said:

If there really was a massive Coyotes following in Phoenix (East Valley or otherwise), they'd find a way to get to Coyotes games and give the team a respectable amount of support on a year-in year-out basis. It's that simple. The arena being in Glendale is a weak excuse; Ottawa (until recently, when the organization went to hell and Eugene Melnyk turned into Peter Pocklington) did just fine under similar circumstances. If people in Largo and Clearwater can get to Lightning games, people in Tempe and Mesa can get to Coyotes games.

 

 

Why do people do this? They do the same thing with the Rays. You can say Phoenix is a bad market for hockey, which it probably is, but the arena location is a significant factor in all of their problems. It was a terrible place to build because it's on the opposite side of a physically huge city far from the largest population center and the areas with the most income, and they moved there early in the franchise's time in a new hockey market, which killed fan culture. That's not a weak excuse. It's a big reason half the city doesn't go to games. 

 

Think about this - It takes my family in Gilbert over an hour to get to that arena. They're pretty big Coyotes fans, but getting to the arena is such a chore, especially on weeknights, that they don't go very often and opt instead to watch on TV. It's not because they're not devoted enough hockey fans, it's because they're people living their lives day-to-day and the arena is in too far a place to reasonably expect regular visits. Now extrapolate them to every person who lives on their side of the city. If the Coyotes played closer they might be season ticket holders. On top of that who wants to drive two hours round trip to sit in a half empty, lifeless environment? It's a bad cycle.  

 

Tampa's arena is in the perfect place for Tampa. Centrally located, on the good side of the bridges, and the Lightning draw because it's easily accessible from more high income areas. Not really analogous. Ottawa - Ottawa routinely had problems with attendance even when they were good for the exact same reasons people don't go to Coyotes games. They've been trying for a while to replace an arena that is only 25 years old because they want a more centrally located building. 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, who do you think said:

If there really was a massive Coyotes following in Phoenix (East Valley or otherwise), they'd find a way to get to Coyotes games and give the team a respectable amount of support on a year-in year-out basis. It's that simple. The arena being in Glendale is a weak excuse; Ottawa (until recently, when the organization went to hell and Eugene Melnyk turned into Peter Pocklington) did just fine under similar circumstances. If people in Largo and Clearwater can get to Lightning games, people in Tempe and Mesa can get to Coyotes games.

 

The Coyotes aren't some sort of cultural institution down there. They don't deserve any credit for whatever grassroots progress has been made. And yeah, I do root for them to fail. After all the taxpayer money they've siphoned off over the years (with the help of corrupt public officials) just to live one more day, they deserve the needle. More fans for ASU. College sports is all Arizona really cares about anyway.

 

Tampa plays in a downtown arena, so that isn't comparable at all. As for Ottawa, that's a market that was full of hockey fans long before they were granted an expansion team. They didn't need to worry about building a fanbase from scratch. There's also been calls for a downtown arena pretty much since they decided to build in Kanata.

 

It's funny that no one ever seemed to say "if the Islanders actually had devoted fans they'd find a way to get to Brooklyn to watch games". But I guess NYC gets snow in the winter, so they must be a deserving hockey market.

 

Auston Matthews has literally been quoted as saying he would not have ever played hockey if it weren't for the Coyotes, so I'd say they deserve a little credit. 

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16 minutes ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

Auston Matthews has literally been quoted as saying he would not have ever played hockey if it weren't for the Coyotes, so I'd say they deserve a little credit. 

 

Millions of people play hockey. There are any number of developmental opportunities for kids across the United States in markets that support hockey.

 

Yes, the Matthews story is interesting. But should state and local governments invest millions -- at the expense of actual needs -- to produce maybe one or two more hockey players? That's ludicrous.

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43 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

Millions of people play hockey. There are any number of developmental opportunities for kids across the United States in markets that support hockey.

 

Yes, the Matthews story is interesting. But should state and local governments invest millions -- at the expense of actual needs -- to produce maybe one or two more hockey players? That's ludicrous.

 

Hockey participation in the States has almost tripled in the past 30 years, with particular growth in unconventional parts of the country like CA, FL, and TX. It's not a coincidence that the NHL has widened its footprint across the sun belt during this period of time. Teams have been investing heavily in their grassroots hockey community (sponsoring minor programs, building community arenas), and many retired players are sticking around and staying involved in minor hockey.

 

The City of Tempe's RFP has specified that they are looking for a privately financed arena/facility, so no one is talking about the government pumping more money into the situation.

 

Nashville seemed like a lost cause 10-15 years ago, and look where they are now.

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The Stars have had a significant impact on the local DFW Sports scene for the 28 years they have been in Dallas.  One of the results is a high school hockey league:

 

Home - AT&T Metroplex High School Hockey League (atthighschoolhockeyleague.com)

 

But also this:

 

Children's Health StarCenters, Dallas Stars Community Ice | Dallas Stars (nhl.com)

 

There are 8 of these StarCenters. 

 

Another outcome of the Stars impact on the local DFW Sports scene is the Allen Americans of the ECHL. Although the Americans are not the Stars' ECHL Affiliate, if it wasn't for the Stars and their success, I don't think the Americans would have existed.  

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1 hour ago, Sport said:

 

Why do people do this? They do the same thing with the Rays. You can say Phoenix is a bad market for hockey, which it probably is, but the arena location is a significant factor in all of their problems. It was a terrible place to build because it's on the opposite side of a physically huge city far from the largest population center and the areas with the most income, and they moved there early in the franchise's time in a new hockey market, which killed fan culture. That's not a weak excuse. It's a big reason half the city doesn't go to games. 

 

Think about this - It takes my family in Gilbert over an hour to get to that arena. They're pretty big Coyotes fans, but getting to the arena is such a chore, especially on weeknights, that they don't go very often and opt instead to watch on TV. It's not because they're not devoted enough hockey fans, it's because they're people living their lives day-to-day and the arena is in too far a place to reasonably expect regular visits. Now extrapolate them to every person who lives on their side of the city. If the Coyotes played closer they might be season ticket holders. On top of that who wants to drive two hours round trip to sit in a half empty, lifeless environment? It's a bad cycle.  

 

Tampa's arena is in the perfect place for Tampa. Centrally located, on the good side of the bridges, and the Lightning draw because it's easily accessible from more high income areas. Not really analogous. Ottawa - Ottawa routinely had problems with attendance even when they were good for the exact same reasons people don't go to Coyotes games. They've been trying for a while to replace an arena that is only 25 years old because they want a more centrally located building. 

 

They were drawing like crap at the end of their American West tenure too, once the new team smell wore off. Lemme guess, the heckin obstructed views. It's always something, huh? It's never the fact that the Coyotes are a useless franchise with wholly inadequate fan support. It's always someone/something else's fault.

 

Ottawa's attendance was never ideal over multi-season stretches, but it also (until recently) wasn't joke-tier either, unlike the Coyotes. Similar circumstances, different results. Because one is a worthwhile hockey market, and the other is Phoenix.

 

47 minutes ago, spartacat_12 said:

Tampa plays in a downtown arena, so that isn't comparable at all. As for Ottawa, that's a market that was full of hockey fans long before they were granted an expansion team. They didn't need to worry about building a fanbase from scratch. There's also been calls for a downtown arena pretty much since they decided to build in Kanata.

 

Ottawa didn't need to worry about converting multiple generations of Leafs and Habs fans while sitting right in the backyard of both of those teams? That sounds like a taller task to me than converting transplant Blackhawks and Red Wings fans that have moved to the other side of the country.

 

47 minutes ago, spartacat_12 said:

It's funny that no one ever seemed to say "if the Islanders actually had devoted fans they'd find a way to get to Brooklyn to watch games". But I guess NYC gets snow in the winter, so they must be a deserving hockey market.

 

Auston Matthews has literally been quoted as saying he would not have ever played hockey if it weren't for the Coyotes, so I'd say they deserve a little credit. 

 

Three teams in New York is ridiculous, especially considering that none of the other three far more relevant leagues have that many teams in the area... but the Isles and Devils are further down my personal priority list compared to farcical money-laundering operations like the Coyotes and Panthers. Sue me.

 

I don't care about Auston Matthews. What would be different about the NHL if he wasn't around? Did the Coyotes save hockey by having somebody drive a zamboni while this kid was watching?

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23 minutes ago, who do you think said:

 

They were drawing like crap at the end of their American West tenure too, once the new team smell wore off. Lemme guess, the heckin obstructed views. It's always something, huh? It's never the fact that the Coyotes are a useless franchise with wholly inadequate fan support. It's always someone/something else's fault.

 

Never said that. Here's what I said - "You can say Phoenix is a bad market for hockey, which it probably is, but the arena location is a significant factor in all of their problems. "

 

Listen, Phoenix is not my favorite place. It's hot, it's huge, everything looks the same, they're not a great market for any sports team, and their residents are some of the craziest in the nation, but to dismiss the arena's location as a "weak excuse" is weird. Some excuses are valid! Hockey in Phoenix, Arizona was always going to be an uphill climb that needs all conditions to be perfect for the team to do well financially, but the decision to move to Glendale made success impossible. They put the team very far away from most of their should-be fanbase. You make an entertainment destination harder to get to and fewer people will be drawn there. Location is a pretty basic principle in business yet people here always to want to argue with that.

 

23 minutes ago, who do you think said:

Ottawa's attendance was never ideal over multi-season stretches, but it also (until recently) wasn't joke-tier either, unlike the Coyotes. Similar circumstances, different results. Because one is a worthwhile hockey market, and the other is Phoenix.

 

No, they've had similar results too. I didn't imagine the constant discussions during the 2017 playoffs when the Senators had a hard time selling playoff tickets throughout their run, which included Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals. You make an entertainment destination harder to get to and fewer people will be drawn there also applies to Canadian cities. 

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1 hour ago, who do you think said:

Ottawa's attendance was never ideal over multi-season stretches, but it also (until recently) wasn't joke-tier either, unlike the Coyotes. Similar circumstances, different results. Because one is a worthwhile hockey market, and the other is Phoenix.

 

Ottawa didn't need to worry about converting multiple generations of Leafs and Habs fans while sitting right in the backyard of both of those teams? That sounds like a taller task to me than converting transplant Blackhawks and Red Wings fans that have moved to the other side of the country.

 

I don't care about Auston Matthews. What would be different about the NHL if he wasn't around? Did the Coyotes save hockey by having somebody drive a zamboni while this kid was watching?

 

Leafs fans & Habs fans are still hockey fans, and they were willing to buy tickets to watch games in Ottawa even if it wasn't their team. Trying to compare Canadian hockey fans to Arizona hockey fans is like trying to compare the Green Bay Packers to an NFL expansion team in London, England.

 

As for a player like Matthews, I'm pretty sure the NHL is better off for having a player like him around. Not only has he quickly become the face of one of the league's marquee franchises, but it is also about the exponential growth of the game in non-traditional hockey markets. In 15-20 years maybe we see 10 more elite hockey players coming out of the Phoenix area who started playing because of him.

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Fleury is being traded to the Blackhawks. 
 

Vegas fans have almost completed their full “welcome to the NHL, life is pain” circuit. They’ve choked in the playoffs numerous times now, and they’ve just lost their face of the franchise (and in the process found out their front office are jerks).  Once the free agent contracts start to age poorly and there’s no young depth for the team to rely on, and they slowly slip into the purgatory of cap hell, the cycle will be complete. 

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Fleury traded to the Blackhawks, immediately contemplates retirement, gotta get right back to where we started from indeed

 

p.s., bfd that the Coyotes inspired Auston Matthews to take up hockey, it's ultimately way more of a zero-sum game than people make it out to be; if the league hadn't moved south, maybe some really good French-Canadian kid would have taken up hockey that year instead of taking up, I dunno, MMA or chain-smoking

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George McPhee's reputation continues to crater.  Fleury finding out about his trade on Twitter after winning the Vezina, Haula finding out the day before his wedding when his keycard access to the parking lot was revoked...  Stay classy, Vegas.

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