Bonds Testifies he used Steroids

[JQK]

You can't just erase the records, it brings up too many questions...

So what do you do with the stats?

Do you still say that Bonds hit 73 home runs, but does not hold the record?

What if their homeruns were game-winning RBI?

How do you determine which homeruns or GWRBI were directly resulted from steroids?

Do you re-adjust team records for those that lost based on those GWRBI?

It's not the Olympics where teams can get issued appropriate medals months after the fact.

Maybe there can be an asterisk next to the records. You can't take away the fact that the homeruns were hit. You can only re-define the record's parameters.

I'm not saying that the stats be erased, but that the Record Holder be changed. Have a footnote in the recordbook, detailing that. although Barry Bonds did hit 73 home runs, he did so under the influence of steroids. Yes, i don't think there is a way you can erase the stats without having a massive headache. But the Records must be taken away, any MVP's won should be stripped. Take away every accolade and award and record these men have.

The stats have to stay... it is just how it is. There is no way around that.

But everything else goes away.

[Magus]

why is this sucha news story?

does anyone really care what bonds took or if he knew. if he's juiced good luck to him. it really shows what a joke baseball is. you don't need to be juiced to play a 9year old sport.

[CaolinaJoe]

It's a complex situation. What I hear mainly here is Barry hating. From most accounts at least 50% of the players use some sort of performance enhancing drugs. Yet, Barry carries the full brunt of all the criticism.

Prior to 2003 they were not illegal to baseball. Therefore, you can't just throwout and asterisk stats. The test he took during 2003 & 2004, did he pop positive? No clue.

Baseball is full of "Era's". The "Deadball Era", "Juiced ball Era", "Pre-Integration Era", etc. The past 5-10 years will be remembered as the "Juiced Player Era".

There is no conclusive way to determine how steroids effected the game or which games were effected by them. An average player on steroids is still average(i.e. Benito Santiago). That is history. Now they need to move on, you can't grandfather an illegal substance. You can only penalize from the date of the ban forward. What Selig should do is use this a way to get his MInor League steroid policy put into effect in the majors.

As Conte said in his interview, they also need to address stimulants. It's kind of amazing that a guy can get coked up,smoked up, beat his wife up, drive all drunked up, and yet has no where near the stigma attached to him that a guy who took something to improve his game gets.

[Saintsfan]

Dude.. steroids alter individual's output, and thereby change the outcome of the game! Betting is just a gamble, a game that can become a disease and a personal defect. Rose has never bet AGAINST his own team. He never tanked a game on purpose.  While, what Bonds did changes the game and puts records in question.

This is unfathomable,a nd whether he knew it or not, he should be banned.

Well, why I agree with you on the point that steriods is cheating and that Bonds should be banned, I think betting on your team as manager is worse. Why Rose may have never tanked a game, he might have used his bullpen differently one game knowing he was going to bet on the reds the next day. Thus, when he didn't bet it was a bet against his team.

But this isn't about Rose.

Thats bullplop. banning Rose was about the integrity of the game. Rose has received a totally disproportionate penalty for the offence he commited. The Rose/Bonds link is the integrity of the game. If it was so bad that Rose did what he did, why is it not that bad that Bonds and Giambi did what they are alleged to have admitted to?

As I said though, maybe just that Selig isn't the commish that Giamonti was.

[jkrdevil]

Dude.. steroids alter individual's output, and thereby change the outcome of the game! Betting is just a gamble, a game that can become a disease and a personal defect. Rose has never bet AGAINST his own team. He never tanked a game on purpose.  While, what Bonds did changes the game and puts records in question.

This is unfathomable,a nd whether he knew it or not, he should be banned.

Well, why I agree with you on the point that steriods is cheating and that Bonds should be banned, I think betting on your team as manager is worse. Why Rose may have never tanked a game, he might have used his bullpen differently one game knowing he was going to bet on the reds the next day. Thus, when he didn't bet it was a bet against his team.

But this isn't about Rose.

Thats bullplop. banning Rose was about the integrity of the game. Rose has received a totally disproportionate penalty for the offence he commited. The Rose/Bonds link is the integrity of the game. If it was so bad that Rose did what he did, why is it not that bad that Bonds and Giambi did what they are alleged to have admitted to?

As I said though, maybe just that Selig isn't the commish that Giamonti was.

In every clubhouse in every stadium it sayd No betting. The reason why betting on baseball carries a banishment is because 8 players on the 1919 White Sox threw the World Series in a betting scandal. Betting on your team as manager (either way) effects the entire game were steriods only effect the juiced players part of the game. Also, please remember I said Bonds should be thrown out. If you throw him out it sends a message and that will go the longest way to cleaning the game out.

Prior to 2003 they were not illegal to baseball. Therefore, you can't just throwout and asterisk stats. The test he took during 2003 & 2004, did he pop positive? No clue.

But they were illegal in the US, thus making it illegal in baseball. Also, admitting to taking steriods counts as 1 if not more than one positive test. The player and the stats can be thrown out and asterisk under the best interest of baseball clause that the commissioner has.

As Conte said in his interview, they also need to address stimulants. It's kind of amazing that a guy can get coked up,smoked up, beat his wife up, drive all drunked up, and yet has no where near the stigma attached to him that a guy who took something to improve his game gets.

That's because those other things don't directly effect the game as steriods do. Using performance enhancing drugs is chreating, period.

[IceCap]

It's a complex situation. What I hear mainly here is Barry hating. From most accounts at least 50% of the players use some sort of performance enhancing drugs. Yet, Barry carries the full brunt of all the criticism.

that would be because bonds broke records under the influence of steroids.

[Saintsfan]

In every clubhouse in every stadium it sayd No betting. The reason why betting on baseball carries a banishment is because 8 players on the 1919 White Sox threw the World Series in a betting scandal. Betting on your team as manager (either way) effects the entire game were steriods only effect the juiced players part of the game. Also, please remember I said Bonds should be thrown out. If you throw him out it sends a message and that will go the longest way to cleaning the game out.

Interestingly no 'Black Sox' bet on the series, but were handed money for throwing the series to benefit a big gambler. So there is no great connection between Rose and the 'Black Sox'. If there were proof that Rose threw games, then fine you have a connection, but as far as I know there isn't.

Anyway the whole Bonds thing shows the difficult thing with this whole BALCO thing. So many sports stars are claiming they did not know they were taking drugs. That can't be a total coincidence. If they are being genuine, then banning them is a tricky matter, although most sports authorities say that what goes into your body is your responsibility.

I don't know exactly how you sort out the mess but somehow you have to clearly get across the message that drug taking in the sport is unacceptable.

[JQK]

Does anyone think we're moving closer to Blurnsball?

[jkrdevil]

In every clubhouse in every stadium it sayd No betting. The reason why betting on baseball carries a banishment is because 8 players on the 1919 White Sox threw the World Series in a betting scandal. Betting on your team as manager (either way) effects the entire game were steriods only effect the juiced players part of the game. Also, please remember I said Bonds should be thrown out. If you throw him out it sends a message and that will go the longest way to cleaning the game out.

Interestingly no 'Black Sox' bet on the series, but were handed money for throwing the series to benefit a big gambler. So there is no great connection between Rose and the 'Black Sox'. If there were proof that Rose threw games, then fine you have a connection, but as far as I know there isn't.

Anyway the whole Bonds thing shows the difficult thing with this whole BALCO thing. So many sports stars are claiming they did not know they were taking drugs. That can't be a total coincidence. If they are being genuine, then banning them is a tricky matter, although most sports authorities say that what goes into your body is your responsibility.

I don't know exactly how you sort out the mess but somehow you have to clearly get across the message that drug taking in the sport is unacceptable.

Let me repeat myself.

Why Rose may have never tanked a game, he might have used his bullpen differently one game knowing he was going to bet on the reds the next day. Thus, when he didn't bet it was a bet against his team.

So why Rose may have never thrown a game on purpose what he probably did with the management of his bullpen knowing he was going to bet the next day was just as bad as throwing the game on purpose. Think about it Rose knows he is going to bet for the Reds the next day, he would probably want his closer fresh for that game so he may not use him in that nights game. Thus that nights game is not on the up and up, it's just as bad as throwing the game. And that's what a lot of people don't get when they try to defend Rose by saying he bet for his team.

Also, the reason why a lot of athletes are saying they didn't know is because that covers them legally and in the court of public opinion. It is hard to prove he did know so the government can't go after them for perjury because they did admit to taking them but they said they didn't know at the time. Also, by saying they didn't know they were drugs they can try to save their public image without going to jail.

If Anderson deals it appears the only on safe from perjury charges is Giambi because he testified that he did know they were steriods.

[CaolinaJoe]

Rose never bet directly against the Reds. But, he also did not bet on them everynight. So a bet that was not placed for the Reds is essentially a bet against them. That is how the bookies took it, if Rose won't bet on them, then I should bet against them.

I doubt he knowingly did anything to effect the games, but obviously gambling could effect some decisions.

Sins as a manager shouldn't effect his greatness as a player. He belongs in the Hall of Fame. He should never be allowed near another ballpark or team, but definitely belongs in the Hall.

[Survival79]

HOF and asterisks not up to Aaron

Once a supporter and admirer of Barry Bonds, all-time homerun king Hank Aaron is now disturbed to hear Bonds' statements to a grand jury investigating a California lab for illegal steroids distribution, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Sunday.

Aaron paused, sighed and added, "Let me say this. Any way you look at it, it's wrong."

[CaolinaJoe]

"Drugs won't help you hit the ball. But can they make you recuperate consistently enough to hit the kind of home runs that these guys are hitting?"

Even Hank says they don't help your performance. They help your ability to go out and perform.

[See Red]

It's a complex situation. What I hear mainly here is Barry hating. From most accounts at least 50% of the players use some sort of performance enhancing drugs. Yet, Barry carries the full brunt of all the criticism.

that would be because bonds broke records under the influence of steroids.

Maybe, you don't know -- but Bonds did nothing against Major League Baseballs rules.

And everyone who wants to asterisk Bonds or erase his records. You can't. That's the bottomline. in 2000, Bonds could've walked up to the plate with a syringe sticking out of his ass, and you couldn't erase the records. When Bonds took these steroids, whether knowingly or unknowingly, they were not against the rules in baseball. For this same reason, you can't banish him from the game. People have cheated in baseball forever. Are we going to kick Gaylord Perry out of the Hall of Fame because he was a notorious spit baller? Are we going to kick Ty Cobb out because he record countless stolen bases because fielders were afraid of his sharpened spikes?

** edit, I see the CaolinaJoe has already covered that they weren't illegal at the time.

For just about everyone else who has ever taken steroids, they eventually break you down and cause very bad physical problems. They rip the tendon from bone and swell organs up and cause muscles to screw and malfunction rather than extend and contract as they do naturally. Why is Bonds the exception to this rule? In a year of this topic being discussed, I've never herad this question answered with anything but "Look at how big he is! He must be on steroids!" Please. When you can afford personal trainers, chefs, all the weightroom equipment in the world, and you have as much work ethic as Barry Bonds -- ya really think it's that hard to get big?

[paynomind]

I cant believe that post, ITE... you are further up Barry's ass than his steroid needles. Dude, HE admitted to putting the creams on himself. Conte said that the creams were steroids, they have been tested to be steroids = BARRY USED STERIODS.

Period. Done deal.

Dude, the arguement isnt if he did them or not, its it, now that we KNOW he did, what is the punishment?

If you want to argue, "no punishment" then thats fine. But you cant say he didnt.

[jkrdevil]

It's a complex situation. What I hear mainly here is Barry hating. From most accounts at least 50% of the players use some sort of performance enhancing drugs. Yet, Barry carries the full brunt of all the criticism.

that would be because bonds broke records under the influence of steroids.

Maybe, you don't know -- but Bonds did nothing against Major League Baseballs rules.

I again point out that the steroids in question were illegal in the United States of America and using them is a felony. Guess what you can get fired from your job if you commit a felony. This is no different, mlb can still punish the player for taking steroids even if there was no major league rule because they were illegal in US. We see players get suspended for beating their wives, there is no rule that says you can't beat you wife but they get suspended for commiting a crime. This is no different.

[CaolinaJoe]

It's a complex situation. What I hear mainly here is Barry hating. From most accounts at least 50% of the players use some sort of performance enhancing drugs. Yet, Barry carries the full brunt of all the criticism.

that would be because bonds broke records under the influence of steroids.

Maybe, you don't know -- but Bonds did nothing against Major League Baseballs rules.

I again point out that the steroids in question were illegal in the United States of America and using them is a felony. Guess what you can get fired from your job if you commit a felony. This is no different, mlb can still punish the player for taking steroids even if there was no major league rule because they were illegal in US. We see players get suspended for beating their wives, there is no rule that says you can't beat you wife but they get suspended for commiting a crime. This is no different.

But Steroids is a drug. Covered by the same rules as Marijuana, Coke, etc. They are illegal but covered by teasting. Penalties for steroids were not put in place till 2003. You can't retroactively punish a guy.

Your point about steroids being illegal is moot, as far as MLB goes. All controlled substances are illegal without a perscription. But, you seem to want to say it's ok for other drugs and steroids is somehow worse. Illegal is illegal, no degrees. Unless you want the police involved in every sport, watch what you ask for.

[Mings]

there is always the possibility that he really didnt know what they were. athletes sometimes arent the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[See Red]

I cant believe that post, ITE... you are further up Barry's ass than his steroid needles. Dude, HE admitted to putting the creams on himself. Conte said that the creams were steroids, they have been tested to be steroids = BARRY USED STERIODS.

Period. Done deal.

Dude, the arguement isnt if he did them or not, its it, now that we KNOW he did, what is the punishment?

If you want to argue, "no punishment" then thats fine. But you cant say he didnt.

I didn't mean it as though I don't think he used them -- but nobody knows the extent to which he used them, or how many years he used them. Everyone likes to act like every HR in his career was because of steroids. Bonds has played what, 18 or 19 years? If he used steroids for even a majority of those years, he would be completely broken down by now, so he used them for a couple of years at the very most.

My point was more that if he were to want to take steroids, and know he was taking steroids, don't you think he would've taken a bit more than this cream? And if that was the case, wouldn't he be injury proned like everybody else that takes them in large amounts? Since everybody liked to assume in this whole situation, I'll assume the answer to all questions is yes.

And there can't be a punishment. Whether it's illegal or not, there were no rules against it in the MLB. The fact that they actually put rules against steroids into place shows that just because something is illegal, it doesn't mean it's against MLB rules.

[Braden]

All I gotta say is that this is one messy situation.

The one thing I raise my eyebrow to, is that all this time Barry has denied taking it at all, INCLUDING denying the possibility he could have been taking this on a regular basis without knowing.

And then we get the real news...

Something's fishy...

There's not enough proof in my mind to make an opinion about the situation... cause frankly, I really don't know enough info about this... I don't give a damn about Barry Bonds with or without steroids.

I wonder what MLB is gonna do... but this steroids fiasco has only just begun...