American Football in Canada

[BBTV]

Would Canadian fans accept the NFL in Canada? I've never seen a CFL game, but from the descriptions of the rules it seems like it would be way different than NFL. Would the fans be 1. knowlegable enough and 2. accepting of the differences enough to support a franchise in say Toronto? Are there High School or College teams that have American rules football programs?

[IceCap]

they tried it once. the nfl wanted to expand into toronto in the 70's i think, but there was alot of risistance to it.

[CC97]

the NFL would suceed in Toronto, but that might kill the Argos and apparently the CFL would crumble without a team in Toronto (i hear sponsors would pull out)

it would definately be accepted in toronto, the most american of the canadian cities

[BBTV]

the NFL would suceed in Toronto, but that might kill the Argos and apparently the CFL would crumble without a team in Toronto (i hear sponsors would pull out)

it would definately be accepted in toronto, the most american of the canadian cities

Do you think that kids with the football "dream" would focus more on NFL than CFL, and that would prompt a change in the way the other leagues (schools, etc.) play, therefore "killing" the Canadian style of football?

[Phil]

First of all, football is football. You can change the number of downs, the number of players on the field, the size of the field, and any number of variables, but in the end, the principles of passing, running, catching, tackling, and defense are the same.

Canadian football fans generally have a good understanding of both versions of the game, simply because we have the access to both (whereas in the states, you won't have much access to the CFL).

That said, I would not support the expansion of the NFL into Canada, just like a disapproved of the CFL's expansion into the U.S. There's a heritage to the game in both countries that I don't think should be messed with.

The NFL has the money, and therefore the quality of play is better. However most CFL fans will vehemently defend the quality of their game, the legends of our field, and the history of our game.

The NFL might work in Toronto, but I think once you reach a metropolitan population of that size, any sport could work with good marketing. The CFL could survive the loss of the Argonauts in the short term, but it would put a severe dent in the credibility of the league as a national icon, and could very well significantly impair the viability of the league in the long term.

The Toronto Argonauts are under new ownership now and hopefully in the process of establishing a solid CFL presence in the league's largest market. The prairie perspective is that Torontonians should be able to get their football fix from the Argos, and drive over the border if they're too good for the Canadian game.

[epper]

i would love for the NFL to expand into Toronto, and I know for sure that it would be successful. It would also create a good geographical rival for the Bills. But at the same time, I agree that it would kill the Argos, and possibly the entire CFL.

Canadians love the CFL, and it would be unfair for the rest of Canada to have football taken away from them just because Toronto could have an NFL team.

I also agree with Syphi that both countries should keep to their identities and stay within their boundries.

[Brian in Boston]

The bottom line is that the NFL will expand into a Canadian city - most likely, Toronto - within our lifetime. To close our eyes, cover our ears and pretend that it is not going to happen is just foolish.

The only thing that has kept the National Football League from expanding into Canada to this point in time is that the NFL has been sensitive to generating the perception that it is responsible for "killing off" the CFL. However, given the CFL's propensity for repeatedly "shooting itself in the foot" business-wise, eventually a day is going to dawn when a significant number of Canadians - particularly those in a city like Toronto - are going to realize that the CFL is responsible for impairing its own viability. The minute NFL executives sense that an NFL foray into Canadian territory can't be solely blamed for the collapse of the CFL... well, that's when the NFL will jump at expanding into a lucrative market. That day is coming.

Look at the CFL today. The league and its fans have barely had time to celebrate the stabilization of franchises in Toronto and Hamilton, along with the push towards establishing a 10-team league via expansion in the Eastern half of the country, when they are suddenly faced with the stygian choice between folding the Ottawa Renegades or handing stewardship of the franchise over to the reviled Glieberman family. Why? Well, among other things, the CFL's fractious Board of Governors refuses to endow the position of CFL Commissioner with any real power. As if the governors of the large-market clubs and the governors of the small-market clubs constantly clashing over the need for a salary cap wasn't divisive enough for the league, the BOG steadfastly refuses to give the CFL Commissioner enough authority to enforce policies that would benefit the league as a whole.

As an example, there isn't much that a powerless "puppet" CFL commissioner could have done to alleviate the current problems in Ottawa. Further, the members of the CFL's Board of Governors have been just as guilty of "whistling past the graveyard" and hoping that the Renegades' problems would solve themselves as Tom Wright has. The result is that things spun out of control... as they so often seem to do every couple of seasons in the CFL.

The CFL's Board of Governors are content for their league to continue its existance with a "figurehead" commissioner at the helm. Look at how long it took them to vote to offer the league's current commissioner - Tom Wright - a contract extension. And it's a good bet that if Wright were to require that the BOG specifically spell-out what his powers are within his contract the BOG would then respond by telling him to take a hike. The bottom line is that the CFL's BOG doesn't want the league's commissioner to wield any real power, but they want him to take responsibility for the league's very real problems. Meanwhile, the BOG wants to control all of the league's power, albeit without accepting any responsibility when problems arise. What the Board of Governors wants in a commissioner is a human "insurance policy"... a guy who insures that when the fecal matter hits the rotary air-cooling device, the BOG comes out smelling like nine roses.

The NFL is the most successful major professional sports league in existance. It has gotten to that position by taking advantage of business opportunities when they present themselves. An NFL franchise operating out of Toronto is a major opportunity. Not only would a city of 2,518,772 people (and a metro area of 5,715,386) be served by the franchise, but eventually the team would serve as the favorite franchise of a significant number of fans throughout Canada. With the extent to which the NFL practices revenue-sharing, as well as the hard salary cap that the NFL employs, concerns over how the exchange rate impacts a Canadian sports franchise competing with teams in the United States are mitigated far more than in any other pro sports leagues. Expanding into Canada would also give the National Football League its first, full-on taste of operating a member franchise in another country... an important step in the league's efforts towards "globalization" of the brand.

Bottom line? The more the CFL appears to be "killing" itself, the less the NFL is going to be concerned about feeding into the perception that it "killed" the Canadian league. When the NFL feels that a critical mass of existing - and, more importantly, potential new - CFL fans have grown disillusioned by their league's bungling... well, that's when the NFL is going to come calling.

Count on it.

[Bleujayone]

What's really sad is that many of the Canadian cities have fans just as hearty, dedicated, and tough as their NFL counterparts. These hardcore fans have done everything they can to promote the league and their teams, and in return they've seen little return or gratitude from the higher-ups.

In many ways the CFL has actually done a better job of retaining many of the rules football originally had. But because of the lack of changes, the game has become stale. The product needs to consider making changes to reflect the fact that both the players and the fans are not the same as they were say 50 years ago. It is rare for them to radically alter rules, but one would think they could have taken a hint for example when they legalized hits above the waist in the 1970's, the results across the board was a renewed interest- probably because it helped make the game more exciting. The CFL is a dinosaur refusing to evolve. The league needs solidaity among its owners (it doesn't). It needs a stable and reasonable salary cap so its own teams aren't going to financial war with one another (it doesn't). It needs a schedule that establishes a day of the week that can be counted on as Game Day for its fans across the board (It doesn't). And it needs to make the game so exciting, so irresistable, that they will have a surplus of fans asking for more (they don't).

Tradition is important, but it can also be a hinderance as well. Part of the reason why the expansion into the States was a failure was not because people don't like football, but because the League simply took a product that already needed adjustments and mass produced it anyway. In addition, they made very little effort to educate American fans so they might be able to understand and enjoy the game better, and they did very little to get games covered on television and radio. As a result, potential new fans got fed up trying to adjust, and when their American counterparts started up season not just in NFL but at high school and college levels, they simply decided to gravitate towards a product they knew of and had easy access to. It wasn't really a matter of Canadian rules versus American rules, it was simply poor business practice.

The Commisioner position is little more than puppet chairman. Anyone who has any radical ideas is met with a stonewall and closed minds. If the CFL ever hopes not to go the way of the dodo they need to give out some real power, and stand behind the decision of the person in charge. Fresh and radical idea need to be explored, and ideas need to be taken from the fans themselves. If they do not work harder trying to sell the CFL to everyone- including their most loyal fans, they will lose their fan base to the NFL even worse than if the NFL came into every city and set up shop with a team. As it is the NFL doesn't even have to try that hard.

The CFL is already pretty close to dead in Toronto. No one goes to the games, they are unpopular on television, and I cannot find very many places within the city to purchase merchandise. I can however get anything NFL my little heart desires, and I see all kinds of jerseys, caps, t-shirts, and jackets all over town. I have yet to see a single CFL piece on the streets- Argos or otherwise.

It's already happened in Toronto.The Argonauts cannot give tickets away. A stadium of 50,000+ and they can not even sell half that for most of their games. Montreal moved out of Stadium Olympique for a much smaller venue that they can fill, but in many ways that's only hiding the problem by having fewer seats to fill in the first place. It's already showing signs in a few of the other cities too.

The NFL has done a much better job marketing itself. NFL Films makes every game by every team of every year seem like a Roman epic, NFL Properties gets the league shield and teams' logos on just about every concievable item, The NFL Netwaor and Sunday Ticket make it impossible to forget about them. The NFL marketing machine does such an impressive job promoting their product. I know people who aren't even football fans invest in their merchandise and treat their game days like national holidays.

On one of my regular visits, I mentioned in passing that I wouldn't mind seeing an Argos game just out of curiosty, especially if it's so easy to attend a game. The response was complete negativity. The term "bush league" came up more than once. I actually had more interest for going down to Buffalo to see a Bills game. I can't find anyone who can tell me how the Argos did the week before, but I can find all sorts of opions about how training camp will be in the NFL next year. When the Argos won the Grey Cup, their victory parade was reported to be about 30,000 fans in the street. That's it??!?? They could have moved the festivities to SkyDome where it was warm and still had room if 20,000 other people suddenly decided to show. By comparision the New England Patriots worst attendance for a victory parade was this past season at just about 1 million!

When a rival league showed us a new city without a professional football team could support one, the NFL eventually moved in on those markets too. When other leagues had radical uniforms and logos, the NFL would also play around with those ideas. And when a rival league came up with rules that made the gameplay more entertianing, the NFL would adopt them. Change is good for business and whether we sports fans like it or not it is a business.

The point is, the reason for the NFL's success has been because they have stood together on financial matters, the share the profits equally, they didn't compete against themselves, and they're willing to evolve the product in order to attract the most amount of interest. If the CFL is unwilling to take a hard look at what it must do to be successful, eventually the NFL will have control of the Canadian markets too. Not because they'll do anything cutthroat, but because the sports consumers of Canada will demand for it.

[sp0rtsguy13]

They had the AFL in Toronto for 2 seasons at the Air Canada Centre. They averaged about 6950 fans a game and only got above 10000 in a game once, their first game ever.

[sp0rtsguy13]

nevermind

[Phil]

It's already happened in Toronto.The Argonauts cannot give tickets away. A stadium of 50,000+ and they can not even sell half that for most of their games. Montreal moved out of Stadium Olympique for a much smaller venue that they can fill, but in many ways that's only hiding the problem by having fewer seats to fill in the first place. It's already showing signs in a few of the other cities too.

The CFL is stabilizing in all the markets it was unstable in except Ottawa, and the majority of markets (Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Montreal) already have achieved stability.

The TV deal is bringing in more money than it ever has.

If not for the uniform uniforms debacle, I would have nothing but positives to say about the CFL's direction.

The league is headed towards similar financial peril as the MLB and NHL have in the past, however the rich owners outnumber the poorer ones, and seem to have the greater amount of control. Tom Wright, however, is less of a stooge than his predecessors, and in my mind represents a slight shift in the balance of power. I'm happy he's got an extension on his contract, because most everything he's done so far has been good. (His performance in the Ottawa situation appears to have been iffy at best, but that has yet to be resolved.)

The Board of Governers does tend to bog the league down, but I maintain the hope that they will see the problems of the NHL and MLB, and take proactive corrective measures.

The CFL is not the sinking ship some may make it seem to be. In recent history, Toronto has been the most troubled of the league's member franchises, and to use it as a barometer of the league's overall condition would be like using the Arizona Cardinals last 10 years as a barometer for the NFL's condition.

[dwertman]

Personally I would like to see the NFL in Toronto,and i think it would work.For some reason i can invision the NFL trying to go into Mexico City before it goes into Toronto though

[Stampman]

I think there's room for both leagues...

Somehow the CFL keeps on keeping on despite self inflicted wounds.

Will that always happen? Probably not.

Would I support TO in the NFL? No.

[wheateater]

For those CFL fans outside of, really, the lone major market in the Canada, the CFL is and always will be the only game in town. Priairie football fans are the most dedicated of any fans in all of sports, IMO, and that support alone will keep the CFL afloat for some time.

That being said, I wouldn't want to see the NFL in Canada (32 teams not enough for ya? ) and I don't think it'll happen for a long while.

[Cashcleaner]

I would not support an NFL franchise in Toronto.

Never in a million years.

Without getting too far into the nationalistic argument, I do not believe that on-field talent, corporate sponsorship, and club revenues should determine what league is better than the other. The NFL is organization is massive, that's very apparent. NFL talent is also the best in the world. Players are recognized more readily in the NFL than any other football counterpart in the world, and as a business the NFL is run very effectively. The NFL is the best league in the United States to follow as a fan, to play for, and to work for within the organization.

That said, the CFL is still better for Canada.

The Canadian Football League has heritage and history that exceeds anything I've seen before. You can watch a game for under 20 bucks easily. You can buy a jersey for a fraction of the cost for an NFL shirt. I'm not advocating clinging on to a tradition for the sake of itself, but I know that I can connect much more with my CFL team than any NFL franchise. Maybe it's because they don't try? I can watch a game on the CBC all the way through without being subjected to souped-up computer animations, CGI blimps, orchestrated fanfares, and highlighted balls being thrown around the field.

It's just football being played and little of anything else. Watching it live is just as much a treat as well. Play isn't stopped nowhere near as much as in the NFL for commercial breaks and as an observer, the game just flows a bit better. Yeah, the talent can't hold a candle to the NFL, but you'll still see some incredible plays and cringe-worthy tackles with the same frequency.

Both leagues have their pros and cons. What I appreciate more about the CFL is that I don't have to worry about any major scandal rocking the sport I love. Think about it. So far the only thing we've had to complain about the CFL is their unoriginal new jerseys. NFL players (such as Dexter Manley, Brad Hopkins, etc.) are constantly in the news for their various criminal activities. Are these the role models we really want to represent our cities with? Canadians have always been looked upon as a little dull when compared to our American neighbours. I don't think dull is neccesarily the correct term, but I'll admit, we are a little vanilla when it comes to pretty much anything. IS the CFL a little vanilla? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I don't think we should confuse purity with dullness, however.

Toronto could probably easily support an NFL franchise, but the question to me is "Do they deserve it?". Say what you want about the Argonauts, but they are still the only champions (outside the Rock) the city ever had for a long time. With the Leafs consistently going nowhere and the Jays only now getting through a rough couple of years, why is Argonauts attendance still so low for a winning team? Torontonians just don't understand how good they can have things, I think. Would an NFL team kill the Argos? More than likely. Will it kill the CFL? Probably not, but how stupid would it look like if the country's biggest city lost it's oldest established professional sports team to a new American franchise? Pretty stupid.

[MC Buffalo]

My personal opinion is that if the NFL expanded to Toronto and the Argos folded it WOULD kill the CFL, however the NFL is proving right now that losing a major market doesn't have to kill a league. The NFL has been out of Los Angeles (2nd largest market in the US) for years and they're as strong as ever. Granted you have a lot more chance of 31 teams picking up the slack than 8 in the CFL, but if the fans of Regina, Calgary and Edmonton want the CFL to stick around, it will.

[NJTank]

A NFL team in Toronto would become a National Team for all Canadian Football fans and they woould be a huge success.

[GeorgesL]

As a longtime Montreal fan, I wouldn't dare support an NFL team in Toronto.

I have always dreamed of an NFL team coming to Montreal. They got the stadium, and they've had 2 preseason games in the late 80's already. In addition, the fans love football, period, whether it's the NFL or the CFL. They warmed up to the WLAF's Machine in its first year of existance, when they were still playing. The NFL could work in Montreal, as well as Toronto.

However, there is a downside to all of this. Economic history has shown, in the Alouettes' case, even though the NFL can work in Canada, Canadian teams cannot shell out the kind of salaries given out by the NFL. Even if NFL players do play in Canada, which some of them do, the CFL and NFL are worlds apart when it comes to the payroll. Most of you remember, and I surely do remember, a that in 1981, when Nelson Skalbania bought the Als, he signed Vince Ferragamo from the Rams, Billy "White Shoes" Johnson from the Oilers, and James Scott from Chicago. So with the NFL experience, The Als' would become a huge success on the field in 1981, right?

WRONG!!!

Sadly, the Als went 3-13 that year. Then the franchise folded, paving the way for the league to award Montreal another team: the Concordes. And the rest is history.

Even though the stench of Mr. Skalbania still lingers, but down to a trickle, football in Montreal has found new life, a charmed life, thanks to our friends down in Baltimore. Now the Als are run by a smart owner, they have lots of sponsers, and the two most important elements: a kick-ass team, and the best fans in the world. As for the players, Canada has a bunch of home-grown talent in the CFL that's just as good as American talent in the NFL. Surely the NFL is not needed in Montreal, but they'd be in the mood to host a preseason game or two. I know I would, but I will always love my football Canadian, 100%!

[CaolinaJoe]

Even though the stench of Mr. Skalbania still lingers, but down to a trickle, football in Montreal has found new life, a charmed life, thanks to our friends down in Baltimore.

You're welcome and it was a pleasure having them.

[Stampman]

A NFL team in Toronto would become a National Team for all Canadian Football fans and they woould be a huge success.

Uh, no it wouldn't...

Much of Canada could embrace the Blue Jays and/or Expos--especially when the Jays won the World Series--but there wasn't a Canadian MLB counterpart to compete against or to replace...

If TO getting an NFL team resulted in the death of the CFL or even a downgrade there are Canadians who wouldn't care--but there are many that would hold that against the NFL and not support it.

There's also the reason alouettesfan presented--that could fly in much of the country...