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Opinion survey


NewYawkSeahawk

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For the most part, I like to think I judge concepts on account of one thing, and that's perfection. There is no such thing as the 'perfect' logo, and so most people here have come to accept the fact that if they get a reply from me, they'll hear about a flaw and/or receive a suggestion on improvement.

That's the thinking behind my criticisms, but as I consider myself highly non-confrontational, I tend to temper my statements. You won't find many posts from me where I rant and rave about how gorgeous something is, nor will you find many where I completely trash a design. If I really don't like something, I usually won't reply (however, if you didn't receive a reply from me re: a concept, take heart; there's a 75% chance I was just too busy and/or lazy to reply... sorry!).

Personally, I like logo concepts a lot more than uniform concepts. Some of the pros here have really amazed me, and have inspired me to seek education in this field (which still may or may not happen). I won't generalize and say uniform designing requires little creativity (enough of you here have more than proved me wrong), but it does not take much skill to fill in the areas of a template. When people do something truly original with a uniform, regardless of whether I like what they've done or not, I am impressed.

However, logo designers generally have no template to work from (at least, the good ones don't work from a template). When I was starting, a lot of my work revolved around selecting a team name, selecting an appropriate font, selecting an appropriate graphic, and finding a way to merge them. This was a great teacher, because it showed me that good logos are not hard to make. But to get past good is something altogether different. I don't know if it's my youth speaking, but I do not necessarily consider many of the long-standing logos today to be 'great logos'. Yes, their simplicity often sets them apart from much of the work produced today. (Imagine if the Habs had been an expansion team this year, and unveiled what they use currently: we would've called it "uninspired", "over-simplistic", "pointless", etc.) Tradition keeps these logos in use (which is as good a reason as any). However some great logos from the present day: the Denver Broncos, the Colorado Avalanche, among others. (Yeah, I know they're both Denver teams... I've never lived in Colorado, never been to CO, never been closer to Denver than Los Angeles in fact, but I like those logos.)

Alright, this is long enough, and it's bed time for this 9-to-5er.

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C'mon guys why most of you have to be so over critical, I get the point of getting better with critism and all, but we aren't pros and we may never be pros, why can't we just get the credit of making something nice by a normal standard. Some of the comments I have seen on some concepts are pretty harsh. Just have fun with this guys, this is suppose to be a great hobby. We shouldn't stress ourself out trying ot show everyone a "perfect" work and keep revising and revising. We should be able to show whatever we think is "done", because many of us (like myself) may never get it close ot perfect. And as for comments, sure, some praises could be nice! :;): but mostly i'm just looking something that I have the ability to fix. The comments are useless if i cant do anything about it.

By the way, Those old logos are great logos to be able to survive for such a long time. They were great designs like the yankees for example. To last, isn't that what a great does?

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I think part of the 'problem' on here is that some of you guys are proffesional, and obviously have higher standards than some of us who aren't and are just doing it for a bit of fun!

I think one of the best things about this board is that there are people from very different strands of life, it isnt just pros and aspiring pros looking for a break, or just amateurs having a bit of a laugh. There is a mix. This is good on both sides. The pros get to show off there stuff and practice in a non-pressured environment. The amateurs sometimes are prepared to try stuff the pros wouldn't try, and the pros can then user those ideas in their own designs if they think they work! The Amateurs can improve their work by aspiring to a more proffessional standard.

On the original topic, I think there is no point posting if you aren't prepared to take some criticism. However there is no need for that criticism to become personal. Stick to criticising the concept if at all possible, rather than the designer!

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C'mon guys why most of you have to be so over critical, I get the point of getting better with critism and all, but we aren't pros and we may never be pros, why can't we just get the credit of making something nice by a normal standard. Some of the comments I have seen on some concepts are pretty harsh.

Well i aspire to be a pro down the line after some schooling (upcoming this fall) So I personally enjoy, encourage and even antagonize all sorts of concepts.

Ill use myself as an example on how honest always works:

I remember my first concepts for my CFA franchise were really really busy, incorporating 5 colors and 4 or 5 points of interest.

This being the 'Busy' Original (c&p)

After constructive, and yes at times harsh criticism, (that i actually agreed with) that i disliked, i came up with this.

Version 2 (c/p)

But was rather, and absurdly i may add, still a bit unsatisfied by the remarks, thinking i had somethign goood here, even though there were a few positives.

But heres the thing, you cannot just go by other peoples wishes (ahh a caveat he says) so eventually i let it sit for a good while, then caboom, messing with it i found something i really liked.

Final revision

Looking back, I am glad i lost it, got razzed, and all that jazz because it made me change it,which it needed to be, then after i got it out of my concious, and let my subconcious play with it, i got somethign i really love, and am proud of.

So playing nice sometimes leaves you with that not so fresh feeling, remember that.

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As much as I would like to possess the skills and abilities to be able to transfer the concepts and designs I have in my head to the computer screen or at least to paper, I realize my limitations and the fact that I'm probably never going to "get there."  Accordingly, I have nothing but respect for those who do have the ability to do so, regardless of the degree of that ability, and so for that reason, I will often complement a designer on his effort, regardless of what I think of the aesthetic appeal it holds for me.  I try not to give anyone a false sense of accomplishment if they have put something together that I don't like, and frankly I just don't have the time or interest to comment on every single design that hits the board.  I do try to offer constructive criticism to designs that interest me but in my opinion just don't entirely hit the mark, however I will almost always praise their effort, just not necessarily their overall product.  Even though I am not a designer, I think my opinion is relevant for a number of reasons.  First, I am a sports fan and have always had a great interest and respect for the history and traditions of the major pro sports.  Second, and I am being very frank here, I am smack dab in the middle of the target demographic for marketers of sports teams and sports apparel - I am a male between 25-60 and in an economic bracket that is the prime target for bulk sporting event ticket sales and also sports apparel and memorabilia.  Accordingly, it the opinion of people like myself that matters most to the people who market sports teams and their logo'd merchandise.  You can say what you want about trying to make the sport appeal to kids between 9-18, but those kids aren't using their "own" money to go to the games and buy the jerseys, so in effect, it's the folks in my age and economic group that ultimately make the decisions.  Please don't perceive this as being an arrogant or conceited position because that's not what I'm angling for here -  I'm just trying to explain why I think that my opinion should count despite the fact that I will never be a peer among the designers that make contributions to this board.  I guess you could say I am attempting to justify my existence.

Good topic, NYSeahawk - you coming down to STL to see your birds play the Rams?

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i just had the time to read this all. i really dont care whether a person tells me if my work is good even if it is crappy. i would even say in the post that i feel its not great even if i made it. i see how ur saying that it will not bring us to get used to the real world and i can agree on that. good topic to start! :)

oh and i am from Long Island as well (seems there is a lot around here)

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You can say what you want about trying to make the sport appeal to kids between 9-18, but those kids aren't using their "own" money to go to the games and buy the jerseys, so in effect, it's the folks in my age and economic group that ultimately make the decisions.

Yes but their parents buy them in droves, they are very important. Probably the fastest growing market besides teenage girls.

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don't forget that we never get to see the professionals "concepts" either. i'm sure if we did we'd be blown away.

Sometimes the professional designers come up with great concepts that team management doesn't like. Then management tinkers with it, or comes up with a suggestion of their own, and the designer is stuck.

I learned a lesson this week. It wasn't sports, but I had to design a logo for an event. I came up with two concepts, one of which I liked much better than the other. Wouldn't you know it, the people in charge picked the other one. Next time, I'll just create one concept -- that way they won't have anything to compare it to, and they'll probably use it.

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I think this forum offers alot in the way of differing opinions.  Because we all come from such different demographics (age, background, training, etc.), I think we have a pretty good "mix" in terms of people's views.  

In as much as ripping "actual" logos & praising things posted here:  I disagree that this is always the case.  Again, I think it goes back to our differences.  Some people are obviously much more tied to one particular mental slant than another (ex: traditionalist vs. non-traditionalist).  Consider 2 highly-debated topics; the Arizona Cardinals and the Carolina Panthers.  Some folks LOVE one or both of these team's current designs, others HATE them.  Despite that the Cardinals have had SO many ideas submitted that it has become quite a library by itself (thanks to Pantone & the SSUR!), there are still die-hards who will object till the day they die.  In such an example, there have been plenty of concept submissions that are miles above the "real" one.  Likewise, some folks absolutely HATE the Panther's design...I happen to be among those who love it and wouldn't touch it.  Does that mean one opinion is right and the other wrong?   Of course not.

How about the old "XFLish" or "Arena-ish" assertions.  Some folks find both God-awful.  Some folks don't.  Personally, I don't think this is applicable anymore when seeing the new Seahawks, Falcons or Bills uniforms...I think they're more in line with what I see being worn by AF2 teams.  I believe there are so many conceptual approaches being used today, that the classifications we are used to are no longer truly relevant.

Similarly, I can think of a design I posted that got very mixed reviews.  I noticed immediately that the likes/dislikes ran right along age demographics;  people my age & up hated it, but those under 25 loved it (and that's actually the demographic I had in mind, so it's okay!).  Some folks thought it was awful, some folks asked for permission to use it.  Different tastes!

This forum is not about rolling out what the pros will actually wear.  It's about rolling out IDEAS, and discussing them.

I am also of the mindset that if I post something that is bad, I want to know it.  That is the way to improve.  But I think it should always be done in a constructive way...there is no reason to be vicious.  But honesty is the only way people can get the input they need and come out on the other side as a better designer.  I have posted many things on this board and will probably continue to do so.  I am looking for the critique of other enthusiasts to help me do a better job.  I have posted items that were constructively criticized, and then I backed up, reworked the idea, posted again and the new design was better due to everyone's imput.  Graphic designs is about as far away as you can get from my real job, so I have no other forum to gain imput through, other than friends and family.  While I think my wife has good taste, she's not a logo fan and doesn't "see" things a desinger would see.  Some things I have posted she loved, but were not well received; and vice-versa.  Again, it's all about differnces.  I see our comments being a boost to the designer.  So agian, I do appreciate the honesty.

And who know...maybe one of these days, someone whose work you consider to be crappy today, will gain the experience and refinement to be the best tomorrow.

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I am on Long Island myself....

I'm on Long Island too,

I think that the reason we usually complain about professionals designs is because we always think that they can do better, while some of us know the limits of the beginningers, like me and other people, and base how the concept looks on what they are capable of.

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For the designers on this board, we do judge it for the most part based on what they have shown before, and whether they are improving.

As for us hardly liking professionals, but mostly giving good comments to less worthy designs on this board. For the most part, the people who post designs on this board, spend there time on it for nothing more than to show us and get our comments, good or bad, and hopefully constructive criticism. The Professional designers spend their time to get paid $20,000 or whatever. You gotta judge partly based on their reward.

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The Professional designers spend their time to get paid $20,000 or whatever. You gotta judge partly based on their reward.

I have to disagree with that!

I have seen designs that people did for free in a few minutes that were alot better than someone who spent 3 weeks on them getting paid!

When it all comes down to it, it really depends on the company or personal taste of the person left to make the decision.

Someone said it earlier, how people picked the worse of 2 designs... that is not uncommon.

Quite often I have set back and thought WTF were they thinking, but people who do not have artistic/creative talent and ability cant appreciate the design for all of it's creative beauty.

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I dont know about that, if they are pro they must be good. It's because they are pro we raise our standards. Like watching the NBA I always thought bryant reeves was junk, but I'm comparing him to the rest of the pros, he might be one of the worst bue he's still a lot better than everyone else who isn't pro. Sometimes you do have to give them credit for what they have done to turn pro.
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It's been said 20 times already, but people should look at something, step back, look at it again, then reason what things work or don't work. Only then will we have something constructive to go on. Knee-jerk reactors should think before they post- for the real stuff and ours. It's not useful.

I wish I'd known about boards like this a few years ago. I look at some of my stuff from just a few years ago and cringe. (Heck, I still often do.) Constructive remarks with some encouragement when needed is best. No one bats 1000%

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if i don't like a concept or a logo, i'll usually flat out say it.  hell, anyone remember my packers logo?  everybody had an opinion on it, and though i didn't agree with some, those opinions showed me the flaws and potential it had.  (mainly the notre dame-like tendencies of the whole package).  i've posted some concepts i wish i hadn't, and i've seen concepts that have me scratching my head as to what the designer was thinking (case in point most of phoenix's crap).  main thing is opinions make the boards go round.  those that take em and absorb the lessons (puckcool and 49erfan come to mind) can only get better.  Those that either are hardheaded or deaf when it comes to this (again, phoenix is my scapegoat here) are likely to turn out underwhelming crap.  and then there are a few cats i know that put originality first and ask questions later but taht's another day.
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