NCAA won't ban Indian nicknames in regular season

[LMU]

Here comes the domino effect. Soon other nationalities are going to complain. The Irish are going to demand that Notre Dame change its name, the Greeks are going to complain that Michigan State, Troy, and USC change theirs, Christian groups are going to demand changes at Arizona State and Duke, and eventually PETA's going to go after all the animal mascots, leaving the Arizona State Maroon vs. the Michigan State Green... that is until artists complain.

And, someone explain to me how San Diego State is exempt? They're the Aztecs, for the love of God!

[VitaminD]

From espn.com

North Carolina-Pembroke, which uses the nickname Braves, will not face sanctions. NCAA president Myles Brand explained said the school's student body has historically admitted a high percentage of American Indians and more than 20 percent of the students are American Indians.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes considerably more sense... not that the rest of this incohesive and indecisive policy makes sense at all. Either ban them or don't, but penalizing good teams (like FSU, Illinois) even though they've both received the blessings of the indigenous groups they named themsevles for is ridiculous and arbitary.

And I think UNCP is far more than 20% Indian. They're working on developing a football program now that they are more identified as part of the UNC system (formerly known as Pemborke State U.).

[BBTV]

There was a big movement at my under-grad school (I.U.P.) to drop Indians as their mascot (even though the school is in a city (Indiana, PA) which is named for Indians.)

After lots of protests, they dropped the nickname and just went by "IUP." Then, brought back the nickname, but changed the mascot to a bear. I have no idea if they're still using the bear now, or if they changed that too.

EDIT: I just noticed that IUP was on the NCAA list of affected schools. I guess they are still called Indians.

[mjrbaseball]

Has anyone noticed that the NCAA headquarters is in Indianapolis?

[Joshawaggie]

.....anger. rising......................................

(rant soon to come)

I completely agree, I cant even put into words what I feel. its just so.... arrrrrrrrrghh

[winters in buffalo]

Well, now that we've seen the statement, let's look at some bits of it:

Walter Harrison, chair of the Executive Committee: "... We believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at the championship events that we control."

Myles Brand, NCAA president: "The NCAA objects to institutions using racial/ethnic/national origin references in their intercollegiate athletics programs."

So why isn't Notre Dame on the list? "Fighting" is certainly a hostile term, and "Irish" is clearly a term of ethnicity and national origin.

Maybe it's all the green in South Bend that makes the difference. And I don't mean the shamrock logos!

Talk about selective enforcement. It's completely hypocritcial to put a policy like that in place, and then only enforce it with regard to mascots that fit into one racial/ethnic category.

[OMMF]

Just so I'm clear, there are really 2 points you all are making.

1) The NCAA shouldn't force schools to change their names but if the schools want to, you have no problem with that.

2) If a specific racial group isn't offended by said nickname, then no one else should be.

So let's take a hypothetical, since people here like to deal in those. Howard University in Washington D.C. decides to start fielding a football team. The board of directors and alumni, which include:

Ananda Lewis- talk show host

Andrew Young- U.N. ambassador, Atlanta mayor

David Dinkins- New York mayor

Debbie Allen- choreographer, director

Ossie Davis- actor

Lynn Whitfield- actress

Phylicia Rashad- actress

Sharon Pratt Kelly- DC mayor

Shirley Franklin- Atlanta mayor

Sean ?P.Diddy? Combs- founder and CEO of Bad Boy Entertainment

Toni Morrison- Nobel Prize winning author

(so a decent cross section)

vote to name their new athletic team the Runnin' :censored:s. You can even spell it Nigga if you want to. It's all hypothetical. Now, many black people have voted for this name, as evidenced by the board vote, the alumni vote and vote of the students.

Now, would you care about that? The school would have no reason to change it based on the rationale given by posters above. It would be the "vocal minority" that would have a problem with it, right? It can't be offensive because the people who you think would be offended by it were the ones that voted for it.

I find it hard to believe that you guys wouldn't say something about that and continue to rail against the change of Native American nicknames.

7/8 of you won't understand this post and just reply with "That would never happen" or "That's a bad example" or just be plain confused by the correct sentence structure and spelling. The other 1/8 of you, think about it. I'm curious as to what you think.

[DEAD!]

7/8 of you won't understand this post and just reply with "That would never happen" or "That's a bad example" or just be plain confused by the correct sentence structure and spelling. The other 1/8 of you, think about it. I'm curious as to what you think.

Well considering how I read articles, I should be part of that 7/8th that doesn't understand that post....

[LMU]

I'm part Native American myself, so I can see it both ways. I am completely for Native American mascots, just as long as they protray them as honorable as possible. FSU's mascot is very honorable. The ones I have a problem with are ones like Chief Wahoo.

[VitaminD]

Interesting take, OMMF. I'll take a stab at this. And I am all about good spelling, punctuation and grammar, so thanks in advance for being legible.

What I see as the biggest flaw in your hypothetical argument is that your example includes an epithet used to degrade an entire race when used by people not of that race (and even by members of that race, if you ask Bill Cosby...). Blacks who do use that language subscribe to the theory of trying to reclaim the word as their own, believing that in doing so, the negative connotation attached to it is somehow lessened. (I'm not black, but I guess I understand the reasoning.) Certainly I don't think it is appropriate to use names that are overtly offensive - Savages, Redmen, Redskins - but there are names associated with Indians as a race, or certain tribes within that race, that are not offensive. Nicknames like "Chiefs" or "Braves" conjure up a more positive image than, say, "Redskins". But the NCAA is overdoing it and lumping schools that use more offensive nicknames with schools that do not.

Another big flaw is that the example you provide uses a word that can be taken to refer to all blacks, much in the same way "Redskins" has been applied to any of the various Indian tribes in the US. But some of the nicknames in question are neither derogatory, nor do they apply to 99% of American Indian tribes. For instance, Illinois, Utah and Florida State have gone to great lengths to get the blessing of the Illini, Ute and Seminole Nations to use the nickname in a manner that is acceptable to those tribes. The tribes whose names are being used as nicknames have given their permission for the teams to continue such nicknames.

It's an interesting hypothetical, but I don't think it fully applies to where you could say it is germane to the Indian nickname issue, for there are too many schools being thrown together without distinction for the degree of offensiveness. The NCAA is (excuse the pun) making it a black or white situation - you have an "Indian name", or anything that sounds like it has something to do with Indians, you're in trouble.

[winters in buffalo]

But that IS an offensive term, so it's not the same arguement.

There's nothing offensive about Warriors, Braves, Indians, Chiefs, or the name of a specific tribe. If they ARE offensive, then why aren't Irish, Trojans, Spartans, Cajuns, Aztecs, Quakers, Vikings or Highlanders?

You could probably add Crusaders, Rebels and a few others to the list.

Also, Ossie Davis is dead.

[OMMF]

But that IS an offensive term, so it's not the same arguement.

There's nothing offensive about Warriors, Braves, Indians, Chiefs, or the name of a specific tribe. If they ARE offensive, then why aren't Irish, Trojans, Spartans,  Cajuns, Aztecs, Quakers, Vikings or Highlanders?

You could probably add Crusaders, Rebels and a few others to the list.

Also, Ossie Davis is dead.

The dead can still vote. See the 2004 election.

[VitaminD]

You could probably add Crusaders, Rebels and a few others to the list.

Crusaders is an example of perception and connotation that are making this into such a colossal mess.

I am sure that the good Christians at schools like Valparaiso and Holy Cross only think of the very best things that a Crusader embodied in the Middle Ages - someone who took up arms to reclaim the Holy Land from the infidels.

But the Islamic fundamentalists who we are presently at war against use the term with as much bile and hatred as can be spewed forth. To them, there is nothing noble about the Crusades or the people who fought in them. They see crusaders as infidels (ironic, no?) who invaded their lands and tried to destroy their belief system.

As an Irishman, I have no problem with Notre Dame's nickname, or its cartoonish leprechaun with his fists up. Hell, I haven't been in a fight in 11 years. I do find it concerning, though, that the NCAA is going after school nicknames like the Seminoles and Illini while making no protest over Aztecs, Ragin' Cajuns and the like. If you're going to protect one group so vociferously, then shouldn't you be protecting all groups? It smacks of a double standard. Trust me, I am all for offensive speech being curtailed, be it the Howard U. hypothetical example or the real examples of today. But they're going out of the way to stigmatize one behavior while doing nothing about similar nicknames that don't involve Indians.

[mjrbaseball]

Why isn't San Diego State on the list?

[winghaz]

There are many things about this that bother me. But I'll just point out one:

If the NCAA is going to take a stand on this, why isn't it putting its money where its mouth is? The NCAA rakes in millions and millions of dollars, but how much of it is spent to help Indians living in poverty on reservations?

If you want to see poverty, take a trip to Fort Yates, N.D., headquarters of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. That town is in such bad shape and people are just making it. So why won't the NCAA spend some money and help the people there?

This is all just crazy. The NCAA gives lip service, thinking it is helping American Indians, but leaves American Indians holding the bag. Shame on you, NCAA.

[DEAD!]

Why isn't San Diego State on the list?

Because Aztecs are Native MEXICANS

winghaz makes a pretty good point about helping the native American population. The NCAA is a cash hungry orgainisation. I wish, not only do they help the native American poor, but maybe give out scholarships so that the youth can get a high level of education

[winghaz]

I totally agree with quad.

The best thing the NCAA can do for the American Indian population is by giving them a hand up, via scholarships so they could get an education and prosper. The worst thing for the NCAA to do is hand out this edict about American Indian nicknames and then ignore the individual American Indians who do need help.

[Yac12]

What are some of these schools going to put on thier uniforms since many state names have Native American origins? North and South Dakota for example?

Also I find it interesting that Football is not included, because of the bowl games are not directly a NCAA event.

Or could it be that the Bowl sponsors would not want to be told by the NCAA that they couldn't use a schools nickname because of the cash the Bowl sponsor bring in.

Fans at these games from schools that can't use thier nicknames should all dress up like the mascots to show the NCAA how stupid this all is!

[winghaz]

Yac, that's another good point.

Florida State is a hot commodity come bowl time by the bowls and their sponsors. And those sponsors sink a lot of money into the NCAA.

Meanwhile, the Divisions I-AA, II and III playoff games have minimal sponsorship and, thus, put little money into the NCAA coffers. But they are subject to the American Indian nickname ruling.

This thing is getting to stink more and more and more.

[STL FANATIC]

Guys, I just skimmed this thread, so I apologize if this has been mentioned...

I hear that FSU is considering legal action against this. That's funny, because as an Illini fan, the first thing I said when I heard this was "Sue 'em!"

This is complete and utter bullcrap. I'd be all for Illinois, FSU, and anyone else dropping out of the NCAA. Join the NAIA, or just start there own. Might not work out well, but have some guts and make a point.

The NCAA should not be getting involved in this. It's not part of their mission statement at al to check up on this sort of thing. Also, interestingly enough, of the panel of schools that came up with this, NOT ONE Indian nicknamed school was represented.

I say no bullcrapation without representation.