NCAA won't ban Indian nicknames in regular season

[NMLSooner]

Since Oklahoma comes from the Choctaw words "ukla" & "huma", and means "redperson", will it be banned from the front of their jerseys in the NCAA Basketball Tournament?

[winghaz]

gosioux, as a full-blooded Norwegian, I should DEMAND the NFL ban the use of the nickname Vikings, considering the way the Vikings have played.

Or, as I often say, I'm a die-hard Vikings fan, and believe me, I've died hard many times with that team.

[gosioux76]

gosioux, as a full-blooded Norwegian, I should DEMAND the NFL ban the use of the nickname Vikings, considering the way the Vikings have played.

Or, as I often say, I'm a die-hard Vikings fan, and believe me, I've died hard many times with that team.

You are speaking the truth my friend. Amen.

1998 NFC Championship Game.

Worst. Day. Of. My. (football watching) Life.

[rbripley]

But I really don't like this ruling, largely because it only addresses the issue in piecemeal. In other words, you can keep your nicknames and logos but not if youre athletic teams are successful.

Interesting way of looking at it!

I'd go a touch further and label the NCAA's actions as "economic sanctions". Rather than take a stand, they're going to set up the rules so that you either comply or wither away. IMHO, it's a typically spineless ruling.

[NoHoJoe]

The NCAA has finally given in to POLITICAL CORRRECTNESS...or should I say....

SOCIALIST ETHNIC CLEANSING??????

[VitaminD]

OMMF... you're kidding me. Let's revisit history, then the nickname.

I'm sorry but last I checked the Irish weren't here first and then had land taken away from them and millions wiped out by disease and murder in the name of westward expansion AND THEN had a mascot or logo used to try and represent them honorably.

1. No, but the Irish had sovereignty over their own island (i.e., "they were here first") until the English came to the island and subjugated the land over hundreds of years from 1172 onward, when English King Henry II first gained Irish lands. By the 17th century, the Gaelic Irish social structure had been eroded away by English advances, and by 1801, the English bribed the Irish into signing the Act of Union. The Irish were 2nd-class citizens on their own island, and many elements of their culture (among them language and religion) were prohibited as England built its empire (i.e. "in the name of [westward] expansion"). Christ man, what was the War of Independence fought for from 1919-1921? The Irish Free State has only been in existence since 1922, and nearly a quarter of the land is still under the British Crown. Just because it didn't happen here in the US doesn't mean something similar didn't happen to the Irish. And it's fairly obvious that Irish-Americans trace their roots back to people who endured this; I'd say it matters to this discussion.

2. Now, as for the Notre Dame nickname being offensive to the Irish, coming from ND's OFFICIAL site. There are two legends as to the origin of the nickname, and neither are flattering. And for the record, both legends predate the formation of the Irish Free State in 1922.

[courtesy of und.collegesports.com ]

One story suggests the moniker was born in 1899 with Notre Dame leading Northwestern 5-0 at halftime of a game in Evanston, Ill. The Wildcat fans supposedly began to chant, "Kill the Fighting Irish, kill the Fighting Irish," as the second half opened.

Another tale has the nickname originating at halftime of the Notre Dame-Michigan game in 1909. With his team trailing, one Notre Dame player yelled to his teammates - who happened to have names like Dolan, Kelly, Glynn, Duffy and Ryan - "What's the matter with you guys? You're all Irish and you're not fighting worth a lick."

While it has passed into mainstream acceptance by our time, the "term likely began as an abusive expression tauntingly directed toward the athletes from the small, private, Catholic institution." Even a Notre Dame school publication [Notre Dame Scholastic] made this point in 1929, shortly after the school officially adopted the nickname:

At that time the title 'Fighting Irish' held no glory or prestige ...

"The years passed swiftly and the school began to take a place in the sports world ...'Fighting Irish' took on a new meaning. The unknown of a few years past has boldly taken a place among the leaders. The unkind appellation became symbolic of the struggle for supremacy of the field. ...The team, while given in irony, has become our heritage. ...So truly does it represent us that we unwilling to part with it ..."

You can keep trying to compare other ethnic groups (or animals for all you humor-less unintelligent types) to Native Americans but it just isn't going to hold water unless those groups were persecuted and ransacked like the Indians were.

Tell me again where the Irish weren't ransacked and persecuted? They lost their lands to a foreign power, were subjugated on their own soil and had to fight for their sovereignty. The now-popular nickname was born out of anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiment. It is only the success of ND's athletes that enabled the mascot to be adopted and its meaning changed from a hurtful slur to something to be proud of - the fighting spirit of the Irish people who refused to give in to their oppressors.

I think I've covered it, and then some.

[jkrdevil]

I don't know if it was brought up but this doesn't effect the Football teams at all. Because of the bowl system and the fact the NCAA does not recognize an NCAA Football Champion, there is no NCAA Football post season. Thus teams with these nicknames can still use them in Bowl Games.

[winghaz]

jkrdevil, it does affect Division I-AA, Division II and Division III. The University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux, a regular in the Division II playoffs, will be directly affected, for example.

[Joshawaggie]

gosioux, as a full-blooded Norwegian, I should DEMAND the NFL ban the use of the nickname Vikings, considering the way the Vikings have played.

Or, as I often say, I'm a die-hard Vikings fan, and believe me, I've died hard many times with that team.

edit: my post disappeared, i may have erased it somehow. I cant remember what I said exactly, so just nmove on.

[OMMF]

You can keep trying to compare other ethnic groups (or animals for all you humor-less unintelligent types) to Native Americans but it just isn't going to hold water unless those groups were persecuted and ransacked like the Indians were.

Tell me again where the Irish weren't ransacked and persecuted? They lost their lands to a foreign power, were subjugated on their own soil and had to fight for their sovereignty. The now-popular nickname was born out of anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiment. It is only the success of ND's athletes that enabled the mascot to be adopted and its meaning changed from a hurtful slur to something to be proud of - the fighting spirit of the Irish people who refused to give in to their oppressors.

I think I've covered it, and then some.

The whole point of this topic is sports names that are offensive in the US. I could list off a whole bunch of people in the world who have been subjugated and persecuted but the fact of the matter is we are talking about indiginous people to this continent, not people worldwide.

[pcgd]

Rumor has it, my alma mater (Carthage College in Kenosha, WI) will be changing its mascot from the Redmen and Lady Reds to something non-offensive. They are D3 and they do like to host post season play from Indoor Track & Field and Swimming all the way to Football and Basketball. In fact they are putting up a big press box right now so they can host D3 football playoff games.

[DEAD!]

Well, what do ya know, politicans are getting into the act.... big surprise

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...l.ap/index.html

[artvandelay]

This is the dumbest thing ever. Apparently more people are offended in the post season than regular season. Go ahead, make the logo as big as you want! But not in the post-season. People are going to be more offended.

Also, the Seminole tribe endorses FSU. They say, "go ahead and use it. We appreciate the respect you show us" Then the NCAA comes in and says "nah, we know better than you. You ARE offended."

[bulldogbarks55]

Until they moved to Indy in 2000 the NCAA headquarters were located in a suburb of Kansas City called Shawnee Mission, named for the Methodist Church-sponsored mission established there to help the peoples of the SHAWNEE tribe. I know this to be true because when I sold sporting goods we ordered NCAA rule books, score books and guide books from Shawnee Mission, KS. The hypocritical NCAA moves from one city named after indians to another! Explain that.

This whole issue is nothing more than liberal "feel-goodism" gone amuck. Makes the cheap suits at the NCAA look like they're actually doing something. We're heroes because "we care" about the plight of our oppressed Native American brothers and sisters. Yeah, right. Give 'em some academic scholarships and a stipend they can actually live on if you REALLY care.

If a study was done you'd find that many, many, many state names (and thereby the names of many colleges and universities) directly or indirectly come from indian words or English derivatives of those words. Did you do your homework, NCAA. Or are you just spewing off at the mouth because you are the biggest dog (sorry, PETA) on the porch, and when you bark everyone shudders.

[OMMF]

Until they moved to Indy in 2000 the NCAA headquarters were located in a suburb of Kansas City called Shawnee Mission, named for the Methodist Church-sponsored mission established there to help the peoples of the SHAWNEE tribe. I know this to be true because when I sold sporting goods we ordered NCAA rule books, score books and guide books from Shawnee Mission, KS. The hypocritical NCAA moves from one city named after indians to another! Explain that.

This whole issue is nothing more than liberal "feel-goodism" gone amuck. Makes the cheap suits at the NCAA look like they're actually doing something. We're heroes because "we care" about the plight of our oppressed Native American brothers and sisters. Yeah, right. Give 'em some academic scholarships and a stipend they can actually live on if you REALLY care.

If a study was done you'd find that many, many, many state names (and thereby the names of many colleges and universities) directly or indirectly come from indian words or English derivatives of those words. Did you do your homework, NCAA. Or are you just spewing off at the mouth because you are the biggest dog (sorry, PETA) on the porch, and when you bark everyone shudders.

I just want to ask one simple question. Why is it that people can't seem to take things at face value but instead must compare it to everything in the world? What is that compulsion? There is one issue here: Indian nicknames being used by sports teams. All your other topics brought into this discussion only serve to distract from the fact you have no point and the only rationale you have for not changing them is that they've been that way for a while.

So, without mentioning any other groups or greek words (Indianapolis? Come on now) tell me why schools shouldn't change their names? It's a simple question.

[-kj]

This is the dumbest thing ever. Apparently more people are offended in the post season than regular season.

The reasoning behind it only being in postseason tournaments is that those are the only competitions that the NCAA directly controls and puts on. The individual schools and conferences are responsible for the competitions leading up to that point. Therefore, the NCAA went with that ruling because it had the least entaglement--since, for example, the NCAA basketball tournaments are run by the NCAA itself, it has sole control over the tournament. Whereas, in regular season play, the conferences can set down regulations which modify the NCAA regulations (remember the old Big East six-foul rule?).

As for the bit about the NCAA headquarters... c'mon, you guys are more intelligent than that, I think. Throwing out the names of the cities where they've been located is a complete red herring. Like many fraternal organizations, the NCAA put its new HQ in Indianapolis due to property tax regulations; it's apparently much cheaper for them to build there.

[pcgd]

I understand the objections of Native Americans. Esspecially with names such as Redmen, Savages, and Redskins. The overall demeaning names are not acceptable and should not be in today's sports atmosphere.

However, the problem I have is when someone is honored (like the Illini or Seminoes) and have gained approval from these tribes either directly (Florida State has approval from the Seminoe Tribe) or indirectly (Illinois had help from the Souix to make the Chief Illinwek suit and dance) why its a problem with white people that have 1/10 native american in them? Why don't these groups go after the state names that honor Native Amerians? the truth is, I'd have no clue who the Souix were if it wasn't for the story of how Illinois became known as the Illini.

Why the double standard? Where are the Aztecs? The Fighting Irish? The Demon Deacons? The Friars? I'm sure there are some members of all those groups that object to the names.

[VitaminD]

Why the double standard?  Where are the Aztecs?  The Fighting Irish?  The Demon Deacons?  The Friars?  I'm sure there are some members of all those groups that object to the names.

Fighting Irish was covered above by me. But apparently that's been somehow ruled invalid because it didn't happen on American soil. How are the stories not parallel. Or to ask another way, how is one name politically correct, and one is not? I am not a PC person, but the NCAA is practicing a double standard, and they're not doing anything to help the plight of American Indians.

OMMF: Where do Irish-Americans trace their roots to? Logically then, aren't those Irish-Americans the descendents of those who were persecuted? More to the point, did the Northwestern fans who started chanting "Kill the Fighting Irish" in 1899 differentiate between ND's Irish-American Catholics and people from Ireland? Obviously not. The Irish were seen as outsiders by the WASP majority that settled America - different language, different accent, different religion, different customs.

The ONLY reason Fighting Irish is acceptable today is because it is no longer a disgrace to be Irish; 100 years ago, "Fighting Irish" was intended as a slur and a putdown. And the school's athletic prowess ironically enabled the school and its supporters to adopt the name more out of irony than anything to wear Notre Damers came to wear the name as a badge of pride.

If 2005 were 1905, there is almost no way that Fighting Irish ever would have been considered acceptable.

So again we ask: Why the double standard? And what is the NCAA going to do to help out these people whose cause they've seen fit to champion... but only as far as outlawing nicknames for the postseason? Is that going to do anything to better living conditions for the Indians they're seeking to defend? Will it serve as a kind of reparations? Doubt it. They could put their money where their mouth is and make a financial difference, but I don't see them doing that to assist this principled stand.

[NoHoJoe]

Did you know that since St. John University switched from the Redmen to Red Storm in 1995, alumni funding endowments dropped by 60% in the first season?

[gozags!]

Political correctness is destroying America, and this is the latest sign.