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More Stolen CCSLC Work!

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Gentlemen,

I own the forum, TannerWorld Junction, with the avatars in question mentioned in this thread. I was out of town for the weekend and just returned, seeing the various e-mails, private messages, and forum posts. Thus, I'm sure you'd like to hear what's up with this situation. Thanks to the various parties for dropping me a note about this (namely lilg).

First off, in regards to your removed posts and deleted threads on the TannerWorld Junction forums, those were done by my moderators because of violation of Community Guidelines (most likely language and spam prevention). I ask my moderators to do this on a regular basis and obviously they are not familiar with the situation, so they just responded accordingly. Additionally, the situation got escalated to me by them.

From what I can discern from your posts, CCSLC member artwork was used in the following avatars in question:

avatar_sbfl_benbowbombers1.gif

(Attributed to Quadival)

avatar_sbfl_dearborndocs1.gif

(Attributed to iDonovan)

avatar_sbfl_farmingtonfalcons1.gif

(Attributed to ?)

avatar_sbfl_chicagomintsamurais3.gif

(Attributed to lightbluenc)

In addition to the public forums visible at TannerWorld Junction, there are a couple of private forums that are populated by some guys I went to college with. For the past several years we've been involved in various fantasy football competitions where team names were invented. For fun, folks also threw together avatars. Obviously, logos were probably found using Google Images or even just browsing CCSLC... most are big sports fans and are aware of this community. Avatars were created using member work here.

As you will note, there is no advertising or other revenue-generating elements on my forums. Rather, it's just a small community of folks sharing thoughts and stuff like that in a non-profit environment. So obviously there is no commercial gain to be found from using these logos. Seems like it's a situation where folks didn't have graphics talent and wanted some sort of visual icon to associate with their team. That said, it doesn't excuse the use of your work. :)

Thus, there are a couple roads we could take here, depending on your mindset and generosity:

  1. I could pull the avatars completely. Problem solved.
  2. Permission could be freely granted by the various owners of the original artwork to use the avatars for this purpose
  3. I'd be open to licensing the use of the images from the original owners on behalf of my members

Again, I want to apologize on behalf of my membership for this infringement. I'd like to rectify the situation as smoothly as possible. Please advise how you would prefer this best to be handled.

Finally, I ask that all future dialogue regarding this situation be handled directly with me, via this thread, a PM here at CCSLC, a PM at my forums, or even an e-mail. I'd prefer to not have my moderators or membership burdened by a situation that is best handled by the website's owner.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

- Steve Tanner

(aka Tannerman)

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Here is something to think about.

So what's the difference between another site using your images for avatars and people on this site making sigs with pro logos? Nothing really.

If someone is making money off of your work, that is one thing. If it is just a resource for fans, I don't see the harm. Would you guys want MLB, NFL etc. going to chris and insisting that their protected works be removed?

All I am saying is consider what battles are worth fighting.

In the cases of actual pro logos being used the difference is that their is credit given-but with the 3 from here the avatars do not acknowledge where they are from--

There is also the issue of fair use.

If you do a sig or avatar or concept using an existing pro teams logo, for personal use--it's okay under most countries fair use laws--as long as it is personal use.

A sig or avatar is personal use--no money switches hands-

But I think the difference here is that these are avatars presented by another board for member use & no credit given--in fact the use could be seen as disguised.

If someone on another board did their own avata using one of those logos it wouldn't be as big a deal.

The various designers here may or may not go beyond this...

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Here is something to think about.

So what's the difference between another site using your images for avatars and people on this site making sigs with pro logos?  Nothing really.

If someone is making money off of your work, that is one thing.  If it is just a resource for fans, I don't see the harm.  Would you guys want MLB, NFL etc. going to chris and insisting that their protected works be removed?

All I am saying is consider what battles are worth fighting.

In the cases of actual pro logos being used the difference is that their is credit given-but with the 3 from here the avatars do not acknowledge where they are from--

There is also the issue of fair use.

If you do a sig or avatar or concept using an existing pro teams logo, for personal use--it's okay under most countries fair use laws--as long as it is personal use.

A sig or avatar is personal use--no money switches hands-

But I think the difference here is that these are avatars presented by another board for member use & no credit given--in fact the use could be seen as disguised.

If someone on another board did their own avata using one of those logos it wouldn't be as big a deal.

The various designers here may or may not go beyond this...

Stampman,

Fair use is only for personal, private use. Publishing it on the internet doesn't fall into that category. It's still a violation (unless its in Russia). An example of what can happen is in the case of the Simpsons. Fox went after the larger fans sites that had audio clips and images. It's not legal unless permission is granted. I use imagery that is copy-protected in my signature and avatar. Could the owners come after me? Yes, if they chose to.

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Here is something to think about.

So what's the difference between another site using your images for avatars and people on this site making sigs with pro logos?  Nothing really.

If someone is making money off of your work, that is one thing.  If it is just a resource for fans, I don't see the harm.  Would you guys want MLB, NFL etc. going to chris and insisting that their protected works be removed?

All I am saying is consider what battles are worth fighting.

In the cases of actual pro logos being used the difference is that their is credit given-but with the 3 from here the avatars do not acknowledge where they are from--

There is also the issue of fair use.

If you do a sig or avatar or concept using an existing pro teams logo, for personal use--it's okay under most countries fair use laws--as long as it is personal use.

A sig or avatar is personal use--no money switches hands-

But I think the difference here is that these are avatars presented by another board for member use & no credit given--in fact the use could be seen as disguised.

If someone on another board did their own avata using one of those logos it wouldn't be as big a deal.

The various designers here may or may not go beyond this...

Stampman,

Fair use is only for personal, private use. Publishing it on the internet doesn't fall into that category. It's still a violation (unless its in Russia). An example of what can happen is in the case of the Simpsons. Fox went after the larger fans sites that had audio clips and images. It's not legal unless permission is granted. I use imagery that is copy-protected in my signature and avatar. Could the owners come after me? Yes, if they chose to.

It's still fair use in Canada--I know a few lawyers...

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Here is something to think about.

So what's the difference between another site using your images for avatars and people on this site making sigs with pro logos?  Nothing really.

If someone is making money off of your work, that is one thing.  If it is just a resource for fans, I don't see the harm.  Would you guys want MLB, NFL etc. going to chris and insisting that their protected works be removed?

All I am saying is consider what battles are worth fighting.

In the cases of actual pro logos being used the difference is that their is credit given-but with the 3 from here the avatars do not acknowledge where they are from--

There is also the issue of fair use.

If you do a sig or avatar or concept using an existing pro teams logo, for personal use--it's okay under most countries fair use laws--as long as it is personal use.

A sig or avatar is personal use--no money switches hands-

But I think the difference here is that these are avatars presented by another board for member use & no credit given--in fact the use could be seen as disguised.

If someone on another board did their own avata using one of those logos it wouldn't be as big a deal.

The various designers here may or may not go beyond this...

Stampman,

Fair use is only for personal, private use. Publishing it on the internet doesn't fall into that category. It's still a violation (unless its in Russia). An example of what can happen is in the case of the Simpsons. Fox went after the larger fans sites that had audio clips and images. It's not legal unless permission is granted. I use imagery that is copy-protected in my signature and avatar. Could the owners come after me? Yes, if they chose to.

It's still fair use in Canada--I know a few lawyers...

Doubt it. Canada has a lot going for it. i know file swapping is legal (for now), but a surcharge is levied on CD and DVD media to compensate. But publishing is publishing.

But lets say that's the case. Then anything posted by people on this board would be subject to fair use by others. I just seriously doubt that the law is that wide open with copyrighted material. I wonder if Chris would worry about swapping vector files if he knew he could get away with it on a Canadian server.

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It has to do with personal use--an avatar or sig you just use for yourself is under fair use.

Sites like Chris's could be in trouble if it was a for profit one-and for that reason he doesn't have ads there--but does here.

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I understand for personal use, but it doesn't include publishing on the web. If it was printed at your home and tacked up as a poster, that is fair use. If the work is published in any form publicly, it is not fair use. Whether Chris makes a profit or not, technically he is in violation because permission was not granted by the property owner. Of course, since there is an agreement that everyone agrees to when signing up on this site, the legal responsibility belongs to the person posting the material - namely you and I.

CIPO

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You have to read it like a lawyer--it's amazing how they can "find" loopholes in things.

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From what I can discern from your posts, CCSLC member artwork was used in the following avatars in question:

avatar_sbfl_benbowbombers1.gif

(Attributed to Quadival)

avatar_sbfl_dearborndocs1.gif

(Attributed to iDonovan)

avatar_sbfl_farmingtonfalcons1.gif

(Attributed to ?)

avatar_sbfl_chicagomintsamurais3.gif

(Attributed to lightbluenc)

The third one down...the falcon...its mine....i really dont mind it being used as an avatar, but i mean it wouldnt hurt to ask me to use it.

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You have to read it like a lawyer--it's amazing how they can "find" loopholes in things.

Maybe, but it's not likely we'd have the money to fight it. B)

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The Farmington Falcons one is also stolen:

avatar_sbfl_farmingtonfalcons1.gif

yup that was my fairmont state falcons concept logo from back in may or so

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still tannerman, asking can't ahve been that hard a thing to do could it?

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still tannerman, asking can't ahve been that hard a thing to do could it?

Nope, it's not. But as I stated previously, I wasn't involved in the creation of all these avatars. Some were done by others. Therefore, unless I researched the history of each and every element that makes a 60 x 60 pixel avatar, knowing the true source is difficult.

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nevermind!

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