Sutter to wear Cardinals cap

[STL FANATIC]

Sorry Goth, but that's bull.

Mac didn't have a chance to retain his reputation. His reputation was up to the public anyways. If he denied it, he was gonna be called a liar, and if he admitted it, he was gonna be called a cheater. His refusal to talk about it merely was telling Congress they could stay the crap out of it, but if they wanted to work to fix the problem, he'd be glad to help.

Honestly, what good would his denial have done? Not a thing. Especially not when it came out just months later that the guy who denied it more than anyone in that courtroom had tested positive from steroids.

How's that fit your scale of "innocent men don't miss a chance to proclaim their innocence, and guilty men only want to change the subject"? It doesn't fit, because sometimes guilty men lie, and if Mac said he wasn't guilty, all anyone would have said was Mac is a liar.

Also, your a liar or a fool if you think Mac is anything but only accused. Until there's proof, all there is is circumstantial accusations.

Do I have to be a homer to believe Mac is innocent? No, I just have to be able to trust a guy who's given me no reason not to. Mac pronounced his innocence enough, and I believe him.

Don't take anything too personally. I can get a bit riled up on some issues, and I usually mean what I say, but I never mean to personally attack anyone. The best discussions/debates are ones that involve some emotion.

[FiddySicks]

For McGwire, it would be a travesty if he isn't elected to the Hall of Fame first ballot, and something a great deal worse if he's not elected at all.

How can you hold a guy out of the HOF who's only ACCUSED of cheating when known cheaters are in the HOF (mostly pitchers)? I know it's a possibility, but I don't think it's as much of a question as most people think.

You're right - it's not a question at all. He's guilty. His refusal to deny it before Congress confirmed it.

No offense, man, but you have to be a huge homer to pretend that the man is still "only accused."

He had an opportunity to retain his reputation, but he blew it. Innocent men don't miss a chance to proclaim their innocence, and guilty men only want to change the subject. Where again did Mac fit on this scale?

He juiced to set the record. He cheated. He shouldn't be in the Hall, period.

You do know in this country theres a little something called innocent before PROVEN guilty, right?

[STL FANATIC]

And just because I think certain steriod users should probably be in the HOF anyways, I ask you this Gothamite...

Should Gaylord Perry, Phil Neikro, etc. be thrown out of the Hall? They cheated. They admit it. Perhaps they oughta be removed, huh?

[gashouser27]

I definitely agreed..Big Mac tarnished his reputation for sure..But we still believe in innocent until proven guilty and no one knows how much of his career is tainted if it is...And we can't go back and test everyone who played in the last 10 years..Sosa? Bonds? I-Rod? Innocent until proven otherwise..

Having said that I think he goes in as an A..

The same reason Sutter goes in as a Cardinal..Classic world series images..

I agree with the logo-less cap for some players..but the variety is cool as you walk through the hall

[Sec19Row53]

I'll take the other side of this coin.

Induction into a Hall of Fame is different than a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, IRod -- all will have their records scrutinized due to the perception that they used steroids. I know that McGwire only had andro in his locker. That may have been a great PR move on his part -- see, here's this legal/approved supplement that I'm using, and I'll stop using it because some people don't like it. Case closed, no one talks about the big "S" word.

As for Perry (spitball) and Niekro (not sure why he was brought up), I think there's a big difference in baseball history/lore/whatever between "gamesmanship" (Billy Martin - "Cheating is as much a part of the game as scorecards and hot dogs."), stealing signs, throwing a loaded ball on occasion, and using steroids. You and I may disagree on whether or not that difference should exist, but it does.

Given all that, I still think that McGwire belongs in the Hall. I just don't expect him to make it on the first ballot.

[Hat Boy]

For McGwire, it would be a travesty if he isn't elected to the Hall of Fame first ballot, and something a great deal worse if he's not elected at all.

I don't know, man. I was just looking at McGwire's stats and he is a lifetime .263 hitter, has no speed, less than average defensive range and won 0 MVP awards (finished 2nd in '98). His only stand out numbers are his HR numbers and they have a cloud hanging over them right now.

I am not saying he is worthy of HOF consideration, but he is not a first ballot slam dunk.

[VitaminD]

I don't know, man. I was just looking at McGwire's stats and he is a lifetime .263 hitter, has no speed, less than average defensive range and won 0 MVP awards (finished 2nd in '98). His only stand out numbers are his HR numbers and they have a cloud hanging over them right now.

I am not saying he is worthy of HOF consideration, but he is not a first ballot slam dunk.

These are the numbers that, steroids aside, prove McGwire isn't a first ballot HOF. For the record, I'd like to see Big Mac in the Hall - I still remember the rookie with scrawny arms who hit 49 HR, so it's not like he didn't have pop before he became cartoonishly large. But now that the "instant history" movement has crested, and we can look with a little detachment at his numbers without the surge of emotions that accompanied what he and Sosa did a few years back, you can poke a lot of holes in his game. He was never judged Most Valuable, and he only led a team to 1 World Series title.

His shameful turtling in front of Congress killed him mostly in the court of public opinion. He had a chance to make a more responsible stand, and took the way out that (he thought) allowed for self-preservation.

With McGwire, America's swung violently to both extremes. First we all hopped on the wave of good feelings he and Sosa engendered with their pursuit of 62. Suddenly he was on the fast track for sainthood. Now, post-Steroidsgate, he's become a public pariah. Meanwhile, his career stats have remained the same. He's somewhere in the middle - not a 1st-ballot HOFer, but not deserving of a Pete Rose-like lockout.

[STL FANATIC]

This stuff about 1st ballot HOFers is nonsense in my opinion. If a guy deserves to go into the Hall of Fame, he deserves to go in as soon as he is eligible. By inducting a player into the Hall of Fame on any ballot after their first, the HOF committee is just admitting they made a mistake earlier. It's as simple as that. First-ballot carries some extreme weight that it shouldn't.

Also, cheating is cheating period. If your throwing spitting balls or scuffing the ball, your messing with the integrity of the game just as much as taking steriods. Are you changing the stats as much? Perhaps not, but your still hurting the games integrety. I don't care that spitballs and stealing signs have been considered parts of the game and steriods aren't...that's a problem, not something that makes the spitballs and what not an okay thing. And the truth is, steriods were considered part of the game for a long time evidently. It's just now people are going back on a witch hunt to convict players at whim.

If Harmon Kilebrew is in the HOF, Big Mac should be also. Kilebrew had a .256 career average (never over .300 other than a 9 game season where he hit .308..Mac was over .300 3 times and hit .299 his record setting year). Kilebrew had 1 MVP (Mac got robbed in '98). Kilebrew also didn't possess any real speed. Although you say Mac was not very strong defensively, he actually was pretty good and has a gold glove to his credit, something Kilebrew does not. Mac also won the silver slugger three times.

Mac's case is there. The only doubt on whether he gets in is if the HOF leaves him out because of steriods accusations, and if they leave him out because of steriods accusations they'll be hurting the integrity of the HOF, not helping the integrity of baseball.

[STL FANATIC]

HatBoy started a thread for this debate where it belongs, on the Sports In General board.

So, all further talk about Big Mac getting in (if you wanna talk about what cap he goes with, that can stay here), go here:

http://boards.sportslogos.net/index.php?sh...=0entry466995

[Hat Boy]

Then let's take this to the "sports in general" section.