Bonds hits a homer this year.......

[DEAD!]

FWIW, Bonds won't be next to Ty Cobb; the Hall of Fame, last I saw, hangs the plaques in order of induction.

That'd be fitting...put two racists beside each other for eternity.

Cobb: In my time I used spikes on my shoes...

Bonds: Well, in my time, I spiked my ointment....

[Swiss]

Tougher without steroids, isn't it Barry?

[HedleyLamarr]

Is it just because he's next, or is there more to this than just passing Ruth for second place?

You said "just" Babe. Why not Aaron? It's obvious.

I think it's funny that HedleyLamarr, recently exposed as a racist, thinks that my "Just pass Babe" comment has more to this than just passing Ruth for second place. The race thing is YOUR hang-up, not mine buddy.

And TCR, if you're looking for a fight, this ain't it, okay. I don't give a damn what color Ruth was, or Aaron is, for that matter. Bonds hit a home run, big damn deal, he's done that 708 times before last night. So what exactly is obvious?

When Bonds passes Ruth, I'll care about the record. Then he'll finally be "chasing" the record. It's not about race, it's about the coverage. He's not chasing Ruth's record. Ruth has no record, therefore there's no Ruth chase. Hank Aaron had to face true adversity (not Barry's self-inflicted) in chasing the homerun record of Ruth's but now the record belongs to the Hammer and he should be the one being chased. Ultimately, the 'race' to Ruth is more intriguing to the media (and racists too, I guess) because Bonds said he wants to surpass only Ruth.

Is race the issue for Bonds? If his goal is to just surpass Ruth, then hell yes it's an issue. He's pretty much said as much without actually saying it. However, Larry Bird, said that he was insulted when a White player tried to defend. White fans didn't say anything, he is still White Basketball God. To me that says that Bird felt White players were inferior. Isn't that racist?

My point? Everyone has selective conscience about racism, especially racists like Hedley Lamarr. The sooner you acknowledge it, the better off you'll be.

Gee....look who's throwing around the "racist" word. Again. Jesse, Al, and Louis would be proud of you.

Now that my jaw is off the ground....

There have been columnists (Atlanta's Terrance Moore, for one) say that Ruth's total is flawed because black players weren't allowed in the league back then. There have been others who pointed out that there hadn't been a great number of great and dominant black, Latin, and other minority pitchers, especially in Ruth's era of baseball, to base that kind of opinion on.

Hmm....I wonder, if I did a search, how often "race" (or any variant or synonym of the word) appears in your posts....

[otherwilds]

Barry is still behind Bronson Arroyo for the homer title....ha

[Jigga]

Gee....look who's throwing around the "racist" word.  Again.  Jesse, Al, and Louis would be proud of you.

Now that my jaw is off the ground....

There have been columnists (Atlanta's Terrance Moore, for one) say that Ruth's total is flawed because black players weren't allowed in the league back then.  There have been others who pointed out that there hadn't been a great number of great and dominant black, Latin, and other minority pitchers, especially in Ruth's era of baseball, to base that kind of opinion on.

Hmm....I wonder, if I did a search, how often "race" (or any variant or synonym of the word) appears in your posts....

Strom Thurmond, David Duke, Robert Byrd, and Trent Lott are proud of you as well. Dude, we can play this game as long as you want. You're a racist. You know it. I know it. I'm not throwing anything around. I'm directly putting it on you. No need to throw anything. You exposed yourself.

[STL FANATIC]

Why do people continue to say McGwire took steriods as if it's proven fact? Bonds IS a proven fact, however, what isn't proven is how much he did and whether it was intentional.

There IS a ton of evidence that says Bonds took a lot and on purpose.

There's very little for Mac.

He was huge and he hit homers. Oh yeah, and a jerk who needed money wrote a book that said he took them.

Mac took Andro and I'm sure a few other legal supplements that in conjunction with his crazy workout routine made him huge, but where's the evidence that he took steriods?

Because he didn't deny it under oath? Well, what he did was tell Congress they can shove it. He told them they had no business looking into what he or anybody else did in the past, but he'd be fully supportive if they wanted to help eradicate the problem.

Furthermore, if he said under oath he didn't take them, most people wouldn't have believed him because they wouldn't have wanted to. And then, after Palmiero, the one guy who was adment about not taking them, tested positive, even less people would have believed him. That whole hearing was crap, and nothing Mac said would have mattered anyways.

No, there's very little proof he took any illegal steroids, and if the Hall of Fame doesn't elect him first ballot, they're ruining themselves by getting caught up in hearsay. (Besides the fact that anybody who's worthy of the Hall of Fame should usually be put in first ballot no matter what, because what would possibly happen after their first ballot that would make them more worthy?)

[SEMOSTLfan]

Why do people continue to say McGwire took steriods as if it's proven fact? Bonds IS a proven fact, however, what isn't proven is how much he did and whether it was intentional.

There IS a ton of evidence that says Bonds took a lot and on purpose.

There's very little for Mac.

He was huge and he hit homers. Oh yeah, and a jerk who needed money wrote a book that said he took them.

Mac took Andro and I'm sure a few other legal supplements that in conjunction with his crazy workout routine made him huge, but where's the evidence that he took steriods?

Because he didn't deny it under oath? Well, what he did was tell Congress they can shove it. He told them they had no business looking into what he or anybody else did in the past, but he'd be fully supportive if they wanted to help eradicate the problem.

Furthermore, if he said under oath he didn't take them, most people wouldn't have believed him because they wouldn't have wanted to. And then, after Palmiero, the one guy who was adment about not taking them, tested positive, even less people would have believed him. That whole hearing was crap, and nothing Mac said would have mattered anyways.

No, there's very little proof he took any illegal steroids, and if the Hall of Fame doesn't elect him first ballot, they're ruining themselves by getting caught up in hearsay. (Besides the fact that anybody who's worthy of the Hall of Fame should usually be put in first ballot no matter what, because what would possibly happen after their first ballot that would make them more worthy?)

I agree with STL Fanatic, everybody was ready to jump down McGwire's throat. Its fair i guess because I'd like to do the same to Bonds but the difference is that Bonds is still playing, McGwire has been retired for 5 years.

Digging up dirt on retired players is going to do nothing to solve the problem in the future.

Also the record that McGwire held is now held by Bonds so its more or less irrelavent whether or not McGwire took steroids.

McGwire was also not even close to passing Babe Ruth or Hank Aarron, Bonds is getting heat because nobody wants a fraud breaking the most coveted record in baseball.

[Jigga]

Why do people continue to say McGwire took steriods as if it's proven fact?

Probably because a guy that stuck a needle in Big Mac's butt said so.

[STL FANATIC]

Why do people continue to say McGwire took steriods as if it's proven fact?

Probably because a guy that stuck a needle in Big Mac's butt said so.

Well, that's fine if you believe Jose Canseco is credible.

The truth is he is anything but credible, and in a court of law (and I KNOW that's not what we have here, so you don't need to restate that to me), his testimony wouldn't be worth much.

[CZzyzx41]

Just as people love to show pictures of Bonds in 1985 and again in 2001, why not do the same with McGwire? I see a very similar growth in mass. Not to mention all the injury problems. Dude went from a twig that hit 49 homers in 1987 to a behemoth in 1992 and the moment people asked questions what happens? HRs goes down and so does Mark to back injuries. He comes back bigger than ever, hits his 70 in 1998 and as soon as someone sees the andro his HR totals start to drop and his back problems return. Coincidence? I think not.

Giants fans will always believe Bonds is innocent.

Cardinals fans will always believe McGwire is innocent.

Red Sox fans will always believe Clemens is an a-hole.

Padres fans will be glad they just had Gwynn who couldn't stay away from the table.

[DEAD!]

Giants fans will always believe Bonds is innocent.

Cardinals fans will always believe McGwire is innocent.

Red Sox fans will always believe Clemens is an a-hole.

Padres fans will be glad they just had Gwynn who couldn't stay away from the table.

Well I don't think brinkeguthrie is big fan of Bonds, if I'm not mistaken.

Cardinals fans just don't believe McGwire's guility, not necessarily innocent. (yeah, that statement is confusing)

Red Sox fans probably didn't think Clemens was an A-hole until he went to the Yankees.

Padres fans... well God Bless them....

....and unless gregjigga5 was in the same stall as McGwire and Canseco, then he has no argument..... and if he was.... God help him....

[SEMOSTLfan]

Just as people love to show pictures of Bonds in 1985 and again in 2001, why not do the same with McGwire? I see a very similar growth in mass. Not to mention all the injury problems. Dude went from a twig that hit 49 homers in 1987 to a behemoth in 1992 and the moment people asked questions what happens? HRs goes down and so does Mark to back injuries. He comes back bigger than ever, hits his 70 in 1998 and as soon as someone sees the andro his HR totals start to drop and his back problems return. Coincidence? I think not.

Giants fans will always believe Bonds is innocent.

Cardinals fans will always believe McGwire is innocent.

Red Sox fans will always believe Clemens is an a-hole.

Padres fans will be glad they just had Gwynn who couldn't stay away from the table.

I agree with most of your statements, however I don't buy the fact that McGwire's production slumped because he was caught with Andro. If you want to argue the injuries that then what steroids has Ken Griffey Jr. been on since he arrived in Cincy? Maybe McGwire did take steroids, but most players at his age are plagued by injuries. Nobody is racing to test Jeff Bagwell for the juice and he's been on the shelf for 2 years now.

BTW Cardinals fans are about 50/50 on his innocence if you didn't hear the mixed reaction he received at the old Busch last year. I'm sure Giants fans are the same way.

Tony Gwynn was simply a great ballplayer and a good guy whom I loved to watch play the game.

[STL FANATIC]

Your quite wrong to say Cardinals fans consider make innocent, or even not guilty. It's my experience that at best, 50% think he's innocent.

Now, most Cardinals fans will probably stick up for McGwire, but it doesn't mean they'll argue he's innocent. Many of them are just as prone to assuming a ton based on very little as everyone else.

The thing is, the evidence just isn't there to act like McGwire definatley took illegal steriods.

Furthermore, it's not Barry from '85 to 2001 that's so crazy, it's Barry from about '98 to 2001 that's so crazy.

Also, both Mac and Bonds worked out like crazy. However, the only legitimate evidence against McGwire shows he took legal supplements to help him. There is a ton of legitimate evidence against Bonds that shows he took illegal supplements.

[SEMOSTLfan]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml

Take a look at Bonds' stats between 2000-2004, he went from barely a .300 hitter to hitting .340 and .370

The only time Bonds ever hit more than 50 Home Runs was when he hit 73

McGwire first hit 50 Home Runs in 1996, long before anyone ever thought about the juice. Call me crazy but some kinda skill is required to hit 50+ home runs 5 years straight, not to mention 60+ twice. Neither one of which was ever accomplished by Bonds.

McGwire was hitting as many home runs in 1987 when he was a "twig" as Bonds did in 2003 & 2004 when he was a "bohemeth"

Blame it on the steroids but to me that shows that McGwire's production had a lot more to do with skill than Bonds.

Oh yeah and just like you claimed McGwire fell off when he got caught with Andro, dont you find it strange that Barry Bonds fell off and was conveniently hurt in the first year of crack down on steroids.

[Jigga]

So don't believe what Canseco said about McGwire, when Canseco injected McGwire and McGwire chose not to deny Canseco's claims under oath. However, believe everything everyone has ever said about Bonds using steroids? I don't follow that train of thought.

I believe BOTH were juiced up on 'roids and HGH. And honestly, I don't really care that they were. I just believe in fairness and objectivity. And since my user name doesn't contain the 3 letter abbreviation of the location of a team for which Mr. "I'm not here to talk about the past" hit a great deal of suspect home runs, I believe I can be objective on this one. Sure McGwire doesn't play anymore, but it doesn't make him any less of a cheater does it?

Both or neither one belong in the same bunch of bad apples. I say both. And I say there's nothing that should be done about it.

[SEMOSTLfan]

Ok so i see where you are coming from on this, but then tell me if Mr. "I'm not here to talk about the past" has been all but convicted of steroid use in the court of public opinion based on his tesimony before congress, then why in God's name wasn't Mr. "The media destroys my life so im going to do my own TV show" there too.

Maybe McGwire convicted himself by saying that line repeatedly but at least he had the brains not to purge himself and lie under oath like Palmeiro.

Or better yet how about Sammy Sosa just magically forgetting how to speak English.

One can only imagine what whining piss-poor sob story we would have heard from Barry Bonds if he was there.

Yes I am biased because as a Cardinals fan I will stand by any player to ever wear the Birds on Bat, thats why this is the greatest baseball city in America.

Whats done is done, there is no longer any evidence of past players taking steroids, everthing about them is just heresay and speculation. MLB needs to quit worrying about what happened 10 years ago and focus on what's right under their nose and in the future.

I think this thread has officially been hijacked.

[Mac the Knife]

There's very little for Mac.

Mac took Andro and I'm sure a few other legal supplements that in conjunction with his crazy workout routine made him huge, but where's the evidence that he took steriods?

Because he didn't deny it under oath? Well, what he did was tell Congress they can shove it. He told them they had no business looking into what he or anybody else did in the past, but he'd be fully supportive if they wanted to help eradicate the problem.

Furthermore, if he said under oath he didn't take them, most people wouldn't have believed him because they wouldn't have wanted to.

No, there's very little proof he took any illegal steroids, and if the Hall of Fame doesn't elect him first ballot, they're ruining themselves by getting caught up in hearsay.

There's very little for McGwire that's come out. That's partially I suspect due to his retirement, and partially due to his not acting like Bonds (i.e., crazed and delusional).

McGwire likely took steroids in addition to andro. The evidence can be seen just by looking at pictures of the man - in his early career, later in his career, and now in his retirement. Is it as obvious as Bonds? No, primarily because McGwire's body type has always leaned towards being large. But is it apparent? Sure.

He didn't deny it under oath because if he had, (i) the media eventually would have dug up proof that he had, just like they did with Bonds (although Bonds didn't testify), tarnishing his reputation further than a non-denial would, and (ii) he would've opened himself up to charges of perjury and contempt of Congress, same as Rafael Palmiero did (though surprisingly, he wasn't prosecuted). You don't tell the United States Congress to "shove it." These are guys that have the legal authority to send you to JAIL for not answering questions to their satisfaction. You don't with that.

If the HOF elects him on the first ballot I wouldn't be surprised, but while in '98 I was happy as hell to see him hit #62, in '06 I question if he should be in the Hall of Fame at all. If Bonds doesn't deserve to be there (and I don't believe he does), McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero and the rest don't belong, either.

[FiddySicks]

You know what pisses me off about this situation so much are all the fans who seem to think they know, or at least act like they know Bonds and McGwire personally. Im so sick of people saying stupid things like "Well, they had to have used them because thats the way they are. Theyve always been that way, selfish and greedy. So therefore, they must have used steriods." I just dont understand it. People sit down in front of a TV and watch these guys paly ball and seem to think they know them so well. Selfish? Greedy? Have you ever even seen either guy when hes not on TV? Thats what pisses me off about the Bonds haters. Not the 5% of people who have accually done some amount of research on the topic, but the 95% of people who only go on hearsay. The people who have no clue what theyre talking about but still criticize and talk about banishment and tainted records? Honestly, wheres the logic in that? Its the same reason why i fu*king hate politics. Im getting to the point where this season is so surrounded with politics that im hating it, and that makes me wanna explode.

[The_Admiral]

Maybe we need to watch Bonds On Bonds!

[Squeaks4]

Is it just because he's next, or is there more to this than just passing Ruth for second place?

You said "just" Babe. Why not Aaron? It's obvious.

I think it's funny that HedleyLamarr, recently exposed as a racist

Everyone has selective conscience about racism, especially racists like Hedley Lamarr.

I understand this has nothing to do with me, but I can't just let you say this and not have anyone respond to it.

How can you label anyone as a racist? Do you know Lamarr in real life? I honestly don't know where or when he was "exposed" as a racist but if you are referring to his comments in the "Racial Test Question" thread I would suggest you go take a look at his posts again. He never said anything racist. However, he did say something that you disagreed with and then you falsely labeled him a racist due to his comments. Then you went on to insert your feelings on who else you felt was a racist. How about you just chill out and let people believe and think whatever they want? Honestly, even if the person in question was a racist, the way you are acting would cause an increase of negative feelings he/she might have.

You have every right in the world to call anyone you want a racist. That is your right, but please don't pass your views and feelings off as universal facts. It might seem that it wouldn't matter what you put off as a fact, but when you are dealing with a community such as this in where new people are in and out constantly, it is unfair to label unfairly label someone something negative because the less informed people of the board might take your simple feelings and thoughts as facts.

I was always told an old psalm by my mom when I was growing up. It went something like "Before you can point out the speck in someone's eye, first take out the plank in yours". Really think about that before you go around labeling whoever disagrees with your views on race as a "racist"