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BamaHater

Red 1970-1974 Houston Astros Hat

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Yes I know Pantone is God, blah, blah, blah.

It must be nice to have infallability, even when it is so obvious that there is proof that he is wrong.

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I have spent months going through photos of baseball hats to compile a master hat list. The Astros did in fact wear a red hat from '71-'74. It's absolutely not a poor color reproduction, because in no way would it always show up in every photo as red over a 4 year period. Then suddenly the photos show it as orange in '75. What happened, they suddenly figured out true color printing after 4 years of messing it up.

Also, they are completely different colors in the Okkonen book. Are we to beleive that that is just a case of poor printing too?

Like I said...

It very well may have been a darker Orange, but it wasn't Red.

I'm looking into it.

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Yes I know Pantone is God, blah, blah, blah.

It must be nice to have infallability, even when it is so obvious that there is proof that he is wrong.

Proof? You've yet to show it.

There are many examples of the Okkonen book having color variations that only reflect the printing of the book, not the color of the uniforms.

There are many examples of color photographs not properly representing the colors of the uniforms.

It takes much more than that to rise to the level of proof.

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Yeah, seriously, "proof" means showing something definitive. So, bring your "proof" out, there, sparky.

Pantone is not a god and no one here has ever said so. What he is, is exceptionally knowledgeable, full of incredibly rare recourses that he is very generous with. He has intimate knowledge of, and continued contact with, the people and conversations that originated the uniforms, not simply looking through photos after the fact.

So, forgive me if you are offended that I'd take the word of the guy who has broken new logos, given us chances to design for real institutions, posted reams of official color break downs, sat on a dais about design with some of the best logo professionals, and has shown nothing but generosity here over someone with quite possibly the ugliest logo ever as an avatar who claims they have looked at books for months.

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Just got off the phone with Todd Radom. Todd is 100% confident that it has always been Orange. NEVER Red. Here are some additional items to offer up as proof (it's photographic evidence, which I'm not always too keen on):

1972 Astros Road Uniform:

1972ASTROSROAD.jpg

1974 Astros Road Uniform:

1974ASTROSROAD.jpg

...and, the final nail in this coffin - a page from the 1974 Astros Media Guide:

1054608383904_1974_Astros_MG.jpg

It was Orange. End of story.

Todd also explained to me that not only did the Astros use chain-stitching in those days - which makes the colors look darker - but the caps were made out of polyester. The polyester tended to darken over time, and usually by the end of the season, would really look "off". This was - apparently - also why the Phillies went to Maroon in 1970. The polyester caps were getting so worn and dark looking, that they just thought they might as well move to that color anyway.

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IRONY ALERT (Slight, anyway): I am with you 100% that it was always orange, but while the lettering on these uniforms looks orange, the trim is much darker (almost red).

As for baseball cards, I distinctly remember having quite a few from that era, which always showed the Astros in orange. I just don't have them handy. They're probably somewhere in Mom's attic.

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IRONY ALERT (Slight, anyway): I am with you 100% that it was always orange, but while the lettering on these uniforms looks orange, the trim is much darker (almost red).

As for baseball cards, I distinctly remember having quite a few from that era, which always showed the Astros in orange. I just don't have them handy. They're probably somewhere in Mom's attic.

Possibly the chain-stitching issue I mentioned.

One more thing about the Marc Okkonen graphics (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century / Dressed to the Nines). Todd mentioned to me that Marc basically drew those images on regular paper, COLORED THEM WITH FREAKIN' MAGIC MARKERS, and photocopied them to put them into that format. You absolutely cannot take any color evidence from those images as proof.

I love Marc Okkonen's work on those images, but you gotta take them for what they are.

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Marc basically drew those images on regular paper, COLORED THEM WITH FREAKIN' MAGIC MARKERS, and photocopied them to put them into that format

Otherwise known as the 1980s version of Photoshop

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MarcPaint Pro!

It may not be the same shade of orange, but it's still orange.

All the Hall of Fame did was scan in the drawings from Marc's book. His original color probably wasn't accurate, and what the Hall of Fame shows probably isn't either. You can still see the crude masking job used to cut out the book images for scanning.

If you still won't take Pantone's or Todd Radom's words as gospel, go to this site: http://www.mlbstyleguides.com/ and buy the CD.

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...oh, and as far the "god" and "infallible" thing...

I certainly would never consider myself infallible in this area, but I have spent DECADES researching this crap. I have had an interest in this subject since the early '70s, and pay very careful attention to the tiniest of details when it comes to color. I didn't just start researching this stuff yesterday.

I'm certainly wrong sometimes - in fact, a couple of years ago on this board (or one of its earlier versions), someone told me that my Arizona Cardinals (a team that I follow intimately) had actually lightened their Cardinal Red from earlier seasons. A claim that I adamently denied, until I bought some early NFL Style Guides that showed undeniable proof that the Red HAD changed. I was dead wrong. It happens. And, I'll admit it when I am wrong.

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This has been a fascinating thread to read, I've enjoyed the history lesson.

But... are those freakin' ZIPPERS on the Astros' jersey?!

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This has been a fascinating thread to read, I've enjoyed the history lesson.

But... are those freakin' ZIPPERS on the Astros' jersey?!

Yep.

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This has been a fascinating thread to read, I've enjoyed the history lesson.

But... are those freakin' ZIPPERS on the Astros' jersey?!

I believe the Phillies used zippers in the 70s as well. Zippers were huge then. Bigger than velcro.

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...oh, and as far the "god" and "infallible" thing...

I am sure that I can speak for multitudes of others on this board when I say that I appreciate your work and your generosity with your wealth of knowledge to us.

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...oh, and as far the "god" and "infallible" thing...

I am sure that I can speak for multitudes of others on this board when I say that I appreciate your work and your generosity with your wealth of knowledge to us.

Word.

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Let me chime in on the side of orange. The Astros never wore red as a primary color until 2000.

And it's always amazed me how often the Astros are discussed here. As an Astros fan it's neat that people from all over the country are discussing their uniforms so often (good and bad).

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This has been a fascinating thread to read, I've enjoyed the history lesson.

But... are those freakin' ZIPPERS on the Astros' jersey?!

I believe the Phillies used zippers in the 70s as well. Zippers were huge then. Bigger than velcro.

The Milwaukee Braves used zippers on all their flannel jerseys.

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Believe whatever you want but

this

Astros red

and this

astros orange

are two different colors.

I also find it odd that Okkonen's book has the "darker orange" consistent with the same years New Era is selling the cap, and the same years photo evidence makes it seem like the orange changed. That's three references that point to some form of change. Sure New Era has made mistakes, sure Okkonen colored with markers, sure photos can lie. But they all match up 1971-1974 as a darker orange. Doesn't that seem a tad suspicious.

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Believe whatever you want but

this

Astros red

and this

astros orange

are two different colors.

I also find it odd that Okkonen's book has the "darker orange" consistent with the same years New Era is selling the cap, and the same years photo evidence makes it seem like the orange changed. That's three references that point to some form of change. Sure New Era has made mistakes, sure Okkonen colored with markers, sure photos can lie. But they all match up 1971-1974 as a darker orange. Doesn't that seem a tad suspicious.

Good Lord - that's your proof?

I guess you can believe whatever YOU want.

:rolleyes:

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Yeah, seriously, "proof" means showing something definitive. So, bring your "proof" out, there, sparky.

Pantone is not a god and no one here has ever said so. What he is, is exceptionally knowledgeable, full of incredibly rare recourses that he is very generous with. He has intimate knowledge of, and continued contact with, the people and conversations that originated the uniforms, not simply looking through photos after the fact.

So, forgive me if you are offended that I'd take the word of the guy who has broken new logos, given us chances to design for real institutions, posted reams of official color break downs, sat on a dais about design with some of the best logo professionals, and has shown nothing but generosity here over someone with quite possibly the ugliest logo ever as an avatar who claims they have looked at books for months.

No offense, Pantone has NEVER broken any new logos. He only posted them once they were already widely available.

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