cranium

St Louis "StL"

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Interesting, bucsfan. But I'm gonna have to ahead and not believe that, lol.

Ehhh. its cool. Its something I heard years ago and figured it was spot on. But since I cant find anything on it now, its probably incorrect. :P

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I've seen versions of the Browns "St. L", what while very, very similar in style to the Cardinals, was a different font of a thicker style and more pronounced serifs. Perhaps back then when "merchandising" wasn't really a word yet, people didn't care as much.

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That serifed STL is vastly superior to the modernized incarnation that the Cardinals have now. Change it back.

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Here is a pic of the different stl's on Browns hats.  I do like the older one on Hornsby just because it is more distinctive from the Cards stl.

browns_top.jpg

The second picture, with just the SL, is not a St. Louis Browns hat. It is a very early St. Louis Cardinals hat.

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Right...there have been about 10 different versions of the "SL" or "STL"

I'm working on a Cardinals Uniform history (working backwards I'm at 1956!) and there were years where the STL on the hat was different than on the helmet, different than on the BP jersey.

This is Al Hrabosky. He played for St. Louis from 1970-1977. I've never seen this one on a game hat...but there it is on a Helmet...

hrabosky.jpg

You'll also find different hat logos on different players in the same year!

57topps-094.jpg

57topps-203.jpg

This could be easily explained...but its just odd. BTW...those are from 1957...the year after the Cardinals went birdless. Also one of the Few years the Reds went to "Redlegs" because of the Red Scare...what a goofy year...

The differences are very minor and are all about the serifs and sometimes the thickness. The thickest one (the STL from the BP jerseys in the 80s) wasn never worn on the hats as far as I can tell. I have a hat with that STL somewhere, and in fact, I think the letters intertwine...meaning that the top and bottom of the S goes behind the L, while the middle goes in front. Never worn by the team...

The current STL is slightly different from the one that was used from the 50s until around 1980. Well I thought it was 1980 until I remembered this little nugget while typing...

1976hat.jpg

This is a hybrid between the 50s/60s/70s and today. This is a game worn hat from 1976 btw.

Since the first STL, the differences have been very slight. TCR is right IMO, I prefer the previous version (the 50s/60s/70s) to the current one. The one in the 40s that was before that was thicker and didn't feature an outline. That is the similar one you'll see to the browns STL. But even that STL is different...

I'll see what I can do to compare them when I finish the uniform history. Its very hard to research because like I said, I've found different versions in the same season. Even that 76 STL on the pillbox is different than the STL that was worn on the regular game hats.

I've never typed STL so many times in my life...

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Here is a pic of the different stl's on Browns hats.  I do like the older one on Hornsby just because it is more distinctive from the Cards stl.

browns_top.jpg

The second picture, with just the SL, is not a St. Louis Browns hat. It is a very early St. Louis Cardinals hat.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, but the picture looks like a 1933 Browns uni when Hornsby went to the Browns. It appears from dressed to the nines (which I know is not perfect), that the cards did not sport the SL on their caps during the years that he played for them. I'm not a Cardinals expert.

al_1933_stlouis.gif

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That speaks more to the failings of the Cooperstown Collection merchandise than anything else.

Those two logos were used only for a short period of time, but they have been immortalized by New Era, Twins and the like.  Had they used the more classic version of the logos, there would be no confusion.

B00028TU9M.01-A2Q41P19X5JJI._AA280_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg  B000A0VRW0.01-A3AHCMBQDRSEI1._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1128607225_.jpg

Well according to this website, this has been the Dodgers' B cap logo since the early '30s, and even before they were officially the "Dodgers" they used the same B, not that primitive one in that cap. I'm not saying that cap is wrong, but if it's right it's from a loooong time ago.

You're right about the Giants though... it's not the same as the Mets "NY". Which makes me think the black/orange caps I've seen probably ARE Mets fashion caps. Odd that I haven't seen a Giants cap.

For the Brooklyn/Boston B's, here they are side-by-side:

6148.gif7165.gif

VERY similar.

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I'm sorry, but Chris' website is just not correct with respect to those particular dates.

It's not his fault - I believe that MLB has put bad data out there, and because they've been sloppy the slender B logo (that does bear some resemblance to the Red Sox logo) is the "official" Cooperstown Collection Dodgers logo.

It's a shame, because that's not historically accurate. There are too many photographs out there of the Dodgers with versions of the rounded "B" logo. The easiest way to see it is to look at the loops in the letter - for the Dodgers, they were full circles. There were many variations on this logo, with subtle differences, but by and large they all used the full-circle B.

For example, here's a photo of pitcher Hugh Casey. He was with the Bums from 1939-1948, and he's wearing a version of the rounded B - you can see the full circles.

41616.jpg

Bigger version here

Here's the original art for Carl Furillo's 1956 Topps card:

37470.jpg

Again, bigger version here. Shows off the B quite nicely. Full circles, very distinct from both the Red Sox B and the one on Chris' site.

Then there are these 1941-1946 publicity photos of the Dodgers:

35012.jpg

Larger photo - take a look at Leo's cap logo.

And Leo's as well.

We can also see it in game-worn merchandise. Here's a beautiful Dodgers game worn cap.

27968a.jpg

We can conclusively date this cap (larger pic of this beauty here) to 1938, because of the coach who wore it, who was only in Brooklyn for a single year.

Here's another, from the late 1940s:

39336a.jpg

Bigger photo here, you can really see the full-circle cap logo.

The logo on the cap photo I posted above isn't perfect (that too was a brief vairation IIRC), but it's better than the one you posted.

Now, I'm not saying that the Bums never wore the logo featured on the Cooperstown Collection merchandise (and on Chris' site). I am saying that it was a relative blip compared to the much more dominant logo, which doesn't look much like the Red Sox logo at all.

And again, the error isn't Chris'. It's MLB's.

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You're right about the Giants though... it's not the same as the Mets "NY". Which makes me think the black/orange caps I've seen probably ARE Mets fashion caps. Odd that I haven't seen a Giants cap.

The logo that the Mets wear now was created for the Giants. They wore it in their later years, before the move to San Francisco.

The Mets have sharpened the edges a little bit in recent years, I believe, but it's essentially the same logo:

41254.jpg19273.jpg

Click for bigger pictures of these two Willie Mays game-worn caps, a 1950s Giants cap and a 1973 Mets cap.

So the Cooperstown Collection does in fact reflect an important Giants logo. But I wish they'd also feature the logo that had a longer tenure with the team, worn for several decades:

37734b.jpg

The photo (larger version here) is of Benny Kauff, who played for New York from 1916-1920, which helps us date that cap.

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Here's a couple photos of Ozzie Smith wearing the strange BP STL and a different cap STL. No idea why one image is reversed, but you can still see it.

Ozzie_Smith_HOF.jpg

Ozzie_Smith.jpg

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Don't these sorts of things go into the public domain after a certain amount of time, like 75 years? It's like the Mickey Mouse case from 1998.

If Mickey Mouse has to be "rescued" from the public domain, I wouldn't think that the "NY" or "STL" or any logo that has been around most of the last century would be protected. Mickey Mouse is bigger than the New York Yankees (regardless of what Big Stein thinks).

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Well I can't argue with that, Gothamite.

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At one point the Cooperstown Collection had the correct Brooklyn Logo and the pre-1940 Giants logo. The blue Dodgers hat is a Mitchell and Ness from late 90's(?). The other two are Roman Pro hats from the early 90's.

b38_rp.jpgBRK_55_MN2.jpg

NYG_3639_RP.jpg

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I had been told by a graduate of University of Chicago that they were the first to use the wishbone C as far back as the 1800s. The Chicago Bears copied it from them and now whenever people see the UofC C, they think that the university copied the Bears. Anyone know any details more than that?

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UCLA's baseball cap has always bothered me

B000BP7R0U.01-AVRR6WAP2O9Z1._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

1. Because I *h*a*t*e* when teams use their nickname initial as their logo (B browns) and even when it is locale and nickname (like CR for Colorado Rockies, always makes me think Cedar Rapids)

and

2. Because of the obvious similarity to the Boston B.

In fact when I first saw the hat in the early 90s it was a dark blue or black hat with a yellow B and being a boston bruins fan I thought it was a cool Bruins/Red Sox hybrid.

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UCLA's baseball cap has always bothered me

B000BP7R0U.01-AVRR6WAP2O9Z1._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

1. Because I *h*a*t*e* when teams use their nickname initial as their logo (B browns) and even when it is locale and nickname (like CR for Colorado Rockies, always makes me think Cedar Rapids)

and

2. Because of the obvious similarity to the Boston B.

In fact when I first saw the hat in the early 90s it was a dark blue or black hat with a yellow B and being a boston bruins fan I thought it was a cool Bruins/Red Sox hybrid.

University teams do that all the time. Purdue's baseball jerseys mimick the Braves' jerseys, and Tulane does that same with their jerseys mimicking the Cards jerseys.

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UCLA's baseball cap has always bothered me

B000BP7R0U.01-AVRR6WAP2O9Z1._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

1. Because I *h*a*t*e* when teams use their nickname initial as their logo (B browns) and even when it is locale and nickname (like CR for Colorado Rockies, always makes me think Cedar Rapids)

and

2. Because of the obvious similarity to the Boston B.

In fact when I first saw the hat in the early 90s it was a dark blue or black hat with a yellow B and being a boston bruins fan I thought it was a cool Bruins/Red Sox hybrid.

University teams do that all the time. Purdue's baseball jerseys mimick the Braves' jerseys, and Tulane does that same with their jerseys mimicking the Cards jerseys.

I don't have a problem with the mimic idea though. I included this B cause it is similar to the Brooklyn and Boston B. What I dislike is using the nickname initial. I actually don't mind and sometimes think it is cool when college teams do that- like Kansas-Giants, Kent State-Chargers, Iowa-Pittsburgh football-wise.

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At one point the Cooperstown Collection had the correct Brooklyn Logo and the pre-1940 Giants logo.  The blue Dodgers hat is a Mitchell and Ness from late 90's(?).  The other two are Roman Pro hats from the early 90's.

b38_rp.jpgBRK_55_MN2.jpg

NYG_3639_RP.jpg

Good catch.

Yep, that was before MLB started supplying the inaccurate Cooperstown Collection EPS files to its suppliers.

I wish Mitchell and Ness was still making caps - they always had great, well-made, historically accurate designs.

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