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If Ryan Howard hits 62


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How about we just wait until he gets to 62 before we all pull our groins yanking our own chains about how Bonds was definitely dirty, Sosa is probablydirty, and how McGwire couldn't be dirty because the Cardinal homer says so.

If Ryan hits 62, it will be a great achievement worthy of discussion, but until he hits it, simmer down.

BTW, even if Barry Bonds fails a drug test, he will still hold the MLB single season home run record. What happens in 2006 does not wipe away 2001. I know, I know, everyone hates him, he's the most despicable human being to ever walk the Earth, etc., but until 73 is officially erased from the MLB record books, he is the record holder.

On January 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, NJTank said:

Btw this is old hat for Notre Dame. Knits Rockne made up George Tip's death bed speech.

 

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Can YOU say that Bonds in 2001, with absolute, 100% certainty, was assisted by steroids?

Here here.

Howard's the Home Run Champ when he hits number 74.

BTW Greg, to say that Barry Bonds is the most despicable human being to ever walk the Earth is an insult to everyone who was called the most despicable human being to ever walk the Earth. ;)

[Croatia National Team Manager Slavan] Bilic then went on to explain how Croatia's success can partially be put down to his progressive man-management techniques. "Sometimes I lie in the bed with my players. I go to the room of Vedran Corluka and Luka Modric when I see they have a problem and I lie in bed with them and we talk for 10 minutes." Maybe Capello could try getting through to his players this way too? Although how far he'd get with Joe Cole jumping up and down on the mattress and Rooney demanding to be read his favourite page from The Very Hungry Caterpillar is open to question. --The Guardian's Fiver, 08 September 2008

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I just wish people waited for legit evidence before pronouncing people guilty. Bonds has tons of stuff built up against him. Fair to state as a fact that he's guilty? No, but you can choose to believe that if you want to (I for the most part do).

But McGwire? Any evidence I've heard against him can be fairly easily rebunked. All the evidence against McGwire calls for, is maybe further investigation to get facts. The speculation is crap. It's ashame the Hall of Fame votes are so high and mighty that they buy into factless (I won't say baseless) speculation.

As for Sosa, I don't know if anyone has any dirt on him. Like, I mean, I think there's even less crap brought against him than McGwire. But again, people just assume.

I'm not ruling out the possibilities, but I'd like legit evidence before deciding.

As far as I'm concerned, Bonds probably cheated to hold the record of 73. McGwire is 2nd with 70, and it's possible cheated. Then there's Sosa with 66, and again it's possible.

Can YOU say that Bonds in 2001, with absolute, 100% certainty, was assisted by steroids?

Look at my phrasing Hedley. I made it clear I couldn't say for 100% certain. I've heard enough evidence against Bonds to lean strongly towards it, but anybody who says that any of these three did it for certain is an absolute moron.

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Yeah, if Ed Wade was still GM, Howard would either have been sent back to AAA, or would have been traded in the offseason for a couple of no-name middle relievers.

Had Thome never have gotten hurt, Howard would still probably have zero major league experience, even though he has nearly every franchise minor-league HR record.

Actually I read somewhere Wade almost traded him to Pittsburgh for Benson or Wells, but Dave Littlebrain thought he was getting ripped. Funny how that man's mind works...

Anyway, anyone who needs evidence on whether McRoider did roids just needs to watch his congressional testimony and his "I'm not here to discuss the past blah blah blah" BS.

Just like NFL linemen at a point you look at these guys and say "how the hell did they get so big?*"

*Note: There is a such thing as players getting big especially in their early to mid 20s as many ballplayers fill in (check out some early and late Ty Cobb and Ted Williams pics if you want) but when a player explodes (muscularly not fat) like Bonds did in his mid thirties, :therock: .

Poor advice from a lawyer and stubborn loyalty to his former ballplayer teammates, opponents, and friends makes him guilty?

BS.

Whether I agree with him doing it or not, McGwire was protecting his friends and telling Congress to shove it and mind their own business.

McGwire was damned no matter what he said. He says nothing, and he's automatically guilty because he wouldn't deny it. He denies it, and he's obviously a liar. He says he did it...well, then he did it.

And even if you say you'd believe him if he denied it (which he has numerous times), I dunno...look at what happened to the one guy who strongly denied it...he was busted shortly thereafter...

A denial would have had no value.

People damn everyone than can quickly and with little evidence.

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Look at my phrasing Hedley. I made it clear I couldn't say for 100% certain. I've heard enough evidence against Bonds to lean strongly towards it, but anybody who says that any of these three did it for certain is an absolute moron.

No, but they surely sound like euphamisms for "Bonds did it, McGwire didn't do it because he had a cool goatee, and Sosa didn't do it because he was always in Pepsi commercials."

[Croatia National Team Manager Slavan] Bilic then went on to explain how Croatia's success can partially be put down to his progressive man-management techniques. "Sometimes I lie in the bed with my players. I go to the room of Vedran Corluka and Luka Modric when I see they have a problem and I lie in bed with them and we talk for 10 minutes." Maybe Capello could try getting through to his players this way too? Although how far he'd get with Joe Cole jumping up and down on the mattress and Rooney demanding to be read his favourite page from The Very Hungry Caterpillar is open to question. --The Guardian's Fiver, 08 September 2008

Attention: In order to obtain maximum enjoyment from your stay at the CCSLC, the reader is advised that the above post may contain large amounts of sarcasm, dry humour, or statements which should not be taken in any true sort of seriousness. As a result, the above poster absolves himself of any and all blame in the event that a forum user responds to the aforementioned post without taking the previous notice into account. Thank you for your cooperation, and enjoy your stay at the CCSLC.

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Look at my phrasing Hedley. I made it clear I couldn't say for 100% certain. I've heard enough evidence against Bonds to lean strongly towards it, but anybody who says that any of these three did it for certain is an absolute moron.

No, but they surely sound like euphamisms for "Bonds did it, McGwire didn't do it because he had a cool goatee, and Sosa didn't do it because he was always in Pepsi commercials."

They sound like my personal judgements based on the evidence I've seen, not facts or even stupid euphamisms.

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If you say so jefe...

[Croatia National Team Manager Slavan] Bilic then went on to explain how Croatia's success can partially be put down to his progressive man-management techniques. "Sometimes I lie in the bed with my players. I go to the room of Vedran Corluka and Luka Modric when I see they have a problem and I lie in bed with them and we talk for 10 minutes." Maybe Capello could try getting through to his players this way too? Although how far he'd get with Joe Cole jumping up and down on the mattress and Rooney demanding to be read his favourite page from The Very Hungry Caterpillar is open to question. --The Guardian's Fiver, 08 September 2008

Attention: In order to obtain maximum enjoyment from your stay at the CCSLC, the reader is advised that the above post may contain large amounts of sarcasm, dry humour, or statements which should not be taken in any true sort of seriousness. As a result, the above poster absolves himself of any and all blame in the event that a forum user responds to the aforementioned post without taking the previous notice into account. Thank you for your cooperation, and enjoy your stay at the CCSLC.

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Look at my phrasing Hedley. I made it clear I couldn't say for 100% certain. I've heard enough evidence against Bonds to lean strongly towards it, but anybody who says that any of these three did it for certain is an absolute moron.

No, but they surely sound like euphamisms for "Bonds did it, McGwire didn't do it because he had a cool goatee, and Sosa didn't do it because he was always in Pepsi commercials."

They sound like my personal judgements based on the evidence I've seen, not facts or even stupid euphamisms.

So I take it you count wearing a Cardinals uniform for 4 years is part of the evidence in McGwire's situation. No offense but you look foolish by not admitting that your homerism is playing a huge role in what you believe in this situation.

I have a question for you and I want you seriously think about it and answer it honestly. If McGwire was never traded to St. Louis and he stayed out in Oakland and everything else about his career stayed the same he just did it in an A's uniform would you have the same opinion about him or would you have a similar opinion of him as you do with Bonds?

I understand why you are like that as a Cardinals fan the McGwire chase was probably a big baseball memory for you. And to paraphrase the Sportsguy Bill Simmons, if you accept that he was juiced that great memory becomes a false one. I sympathize with you I was really in that chase as well and I see images of it now and think I can't believe I got sucked into that thing. I don't look at it as a great baseball moment but rather as 2 drug cheats. I can't imagine how much harder it is to look at as a Cardinals fan. I'm a Yankees fan if Derek Jeter tested positive tomorrow I would probably have a similar reaction to yours with McGwire. Fortunately I hated the Giambi and Sheffield moves to begin with so I can readily admit that they are drug cheats. I understand that you are a Cards fan so I cut you some slack like I do Giant fans with Bonds but you hurt yourself and look silly when you don't admit that being a Cardinals fan isn't the big reason you are defending McGwire.

As far as Mcgwire getting bad legal advice about pleading the 5th, I doubt it. It is the smart move to take some bad PR over the possibility of criminal charges and facing jail time which is worse PR over a longer period of time. I'm sure McGwire and his lawyer had a better understanding on what Congress had on him than we do.

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JKR, first off, understand I never denied any homerism in this thread. Mac was a Cardinal, and I love the guy.

My opinion if he did what he did in Oakland? Mostly apathy.

There really is not legit evidence on McGwire right now. Really, there's not.

Bonds has TONS of legit evidence against him. I don't know enough to call it proof, but it's enough to lean that way for sure.

Let's go back to if he's in Oakland the whole time. One, he's still gonna be one of the nicest and best guys in the game. Bonds is still gonna be an absolute jerk.

That's gonna lead to what I wanna believe anyways, but it also makes McGwire a whole lot more believable when he says he didn't do it.

I probably care less about Bonds if McGwire's in Oakland, too. Mac hits 70 in Oakland...ok. Bonds breaks it...darn, a jerk broke a good guys record, not damn a jerk broke a good Cardinal's record. That said, at this point with the MVP or two or three that Bonds has taken from Albert (if it's three, Bonds stats earned it twice, and one year I'd argue Albert's were better..I think..I'd have to check now..but that's another story), I might have that same disdain for Bonds by now anyways.

So, McGwire being a Cardinal does change my view, but it's not blocking facts. It makes me a little more prone to want to discredit Bonds for sure. It also gives me the desire to defend Mac, but I wouldn't trash him if he had been in Oakland, and he deserves to be defended.

All the evidence on McGwire leads to right now is that he probably took a lot of LEGAL supplements and worked out like crazy. There's enough that you could investigate him further for illegal drugs, but not enough to anywhere near conclude he did them.

Seriously. If there's evidence you think makes it so obvious, tell me. Maybe I'm missing it.

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STL, I've brought this up to you before when having this debate, but you are so clouded by your blind love for McGwire that you don't recognize it. However, I'll say it again, just for the record, because I know it will be roundly dismissed as it has before...

Jose Canseco has told of occasions where he himself shot up Big Mac with the juice.

Jose is a cheat, he's got delusions of grandeur about his own ability and career, but I totally believe damn near everything he said about steroids. Why? Because he told on himself first. Also, look at some of the other players he suspected, do we have any doubt that Palmeiro, Pudge Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez, Jason Giambi, etc. were juicing? Probably not. Why would he truthfully rat out some but lie on Big Mac? Doesn't make sense to me. I'll believe the guy that can relate with clear detail shooting up a teammate in the bathroom stall and teaching him how to shoot up himself over a guy that obfuscates under oath and tucks his tail between his legs and goes out like a coward when he could have stepped up in front of Congress and a nation that once adored him.

I love Barry Bonds the player. He's my 2nd favorite player of all time. Do I know he used steriods? Nope. Do I believe with 100% conviction that he did? Hell yes. The sources may be questionable--jilted mistress, angry ex-employees, old friends with axes to grind, stolen grand jury testimony, etc., but I care more about the message than the messenger. Canseco's message got through to me loud and damn clear. Mac's a cheat, and was a cheat long before we thought he may have been a cheat.

It's one thing to root, root, root for the home team and the hometown superstar, it's another thing entirely to be blind. You are a step beyond Stevie Wonder, at least he knows he's blind.

On January 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, NJTank said:

Btw this is old hat for Notre Dame. Knits Rockne made up George Tip's death bed speech.

 

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Evidence, most athletes get better with age, score more goals, throw more touch downs, hit more home runs......in a rose coloured glasses world maybe!!!

What was that little bottle found in Big Mac locker again? Just because baseball didn't test for anything, doesn't mean it didn't happen. But for some McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds are home run kings. :wacko:

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The bottle in McGwires locker was an over-the-counter supplement.

I for one could care less what any of these guys put in their own bodies. Corked bat, vaseline, hair gel, extra sharp spikes, curved sticks, large pads, stickem, a cast on a none broken arm, nail files and many other things are cheating.

A needle in the ass, gel on a thigh, or a pill during a workout-"JUST DON"T CARE!"

From all accounts the actual number of users was 400-600 players during the time frame, not 4-6. Didn't Brady Anderson break the record for leadoff HR's in a season? Where's the outrage? Not to mention all the guys that went from single digits to double digits and from 20's to the 40's.

Bonds is an ass, I think we all agree on that. But hes also one other thing, "THE BEST PLAYER" of most of our lifetimes, period. Will Albert and Howard pass him, maybe. I doubt it though.

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ok if Howard hits only 62 this year he probably would not be considered the home run champ because:

The babe hit 60 home runs in 154 games. Maris hit 61 in 162 games.

In theory the babe would've hit more if the played 162 games.

Going with that ruth hit 0.3896 homers every game(60/154)

So in 162 games he was on pace to hit 63.1168 home runs(0.3896x162)

So even rounded down howard would be 1 short of the true non steroids home run single season record.

any questions?

Ok, Babe Ruth had 677 Plate apperances in 1927 when he hit 60 HR's

Roger Maris had 684 Plate apperances in 1961 when he hit 61 HR's

Therefore

(60/677=0.088626)

(61/684=0.089181)

Under this presumption, Had Ruth had 684 Plate Apperances (0.088626x684) he would have hit 60.6 Home Runs, round up and that is 61.

If each player had 690 Plate apperances, Ruth would have hit 61 Home Runs while Maris would have hit 62 Home Runs.

Lesson for the day, a season is a season.All the crap about 8 extra games is BS. Maris had the record.

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ok if Howard hits only 62 this year he probably would not be considered the home run champ because:

The babe hit 60 home runs in 154 games. Maris hit 61 in 162 games.

In theory the babe would've hit more if the played 162 games.

Going with that ruth hit 0.3896 homers every game(60/154)

So in 162 games he was on pace to hit 63.1168 home runs(0.3896x162)

So even rounded down howard would be 1 short of the true non steroids home run single season record.

any questions?

Ok, Babe Ruth had 677 Plate apperances in 1927 when he hit 60 HR's

Roger Maris had 684 Plate apperances in 1961 when he hit 61 HR's

Therefore

(60/677=0.088626)

(61/684=0.089181)

Under this presumption, Had Ruth had 684 Plate Apperances (0.088626x684) he would have hit 60.6 Home Runs, round up and that is 61.

If each player had 690 Plate apperances, Ruth would have hit 61 Home Runs while Maris would have hit 62 Home Runs.

Lesson for the day, a season is a season.All the crap about 8 extra games is BS. Maris had the record.

untitledme1.jpg

Maris hit a HR every 9.67AB

Ruth hit a HR every 9 AB

Ruth would have ended up with 66

semperfi.gif

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the

press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of

speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us

the freedom to demonstrate. And it is the soldier who salutes the

flag, serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, and

who allows the protester to burn the flag."

Marine Chaplain Dennis Edward O' Brien

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ok if Howard hits only 62 this year he probably would not be considered the home run champ because:

The babe hit 60 home runs in 154 games. Maris hit 61 in 162 games.

In theory the babe would've hit more if the played 162 games.

Going with that ruth hit 0.3896 homers every game(60/154)

So in 162 games he was on pace to hit 63.1168 home runs(0.3896x162)

So even rounded down howard would be 1 short of the true non steroids home run single season record.

any questions?

Ok, Babe Ruth had 677 Plate apperances in 1927 when he hit 60 HR's

Roger Maris had 684 Plate apperances in 1961 when he hit 61 HR's

Therefore

(60/677=0.088626)

(61/684=0.089181)

Under this presumption, Had Ruth had 684 Plate Apperances (0.088626x684) he would have hit 60.6 Home Runs, round up and that is 61.

If each player had 690 Plate apperances, Ruth would have hit 61 Home Runs while Maris would have hit 62 Home Runs.

Lesson for the day, a season is a season.All the crap about 8 extra games is BS. Maris had the record.

untitledme1.jpg

Maris hit a HR every 9.67AB

Ruth hit a HR every 9 AB

Ruth would have ended up with 66

Good points but all I'm trying to say is that you have to believe if Babe Ruth had the extra games he would have hit more than 61. I don't think the plate appearances is relevant because the record is the single season home run record and not whoever can get the most home runs in a certain amount of at bats. But the real truth is that:

Babe has the home run record for 154 games

Maris had the home run record for 162 games

Bonds now has the home run record for 162 games until he admits he took steriods in 2001, because even if he tests posittve now(which he wont) it dosent mean he took steriods then.

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Jose Canseco has told of occasions where he himself shot up Big Mac with the juice.

You have reasons why you believe him, but he's not a reliable source. Not nearly reliable enough to convict (and I don't even mean in court) a guy of a crime.

His acquisition of Mac is the kind of evidence that I say maybe calls for Mac to be further investigated. It's not the kind of evidence that proves anything.

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Jose Canseco has told of occasions where he himself shot up Big Mac with the juice.

You have reasons why you believe him, but he's not a reliable source. Not nearly reliable enough to convict (and I don't even mean in court) a guy of a crime.

His acquisition of Mac is the kind of evidence that I say maybe calls for Mac to be further investigated. It's not the kind of evidence that proves anything.

It's hopeless. You won't believe Mac did anything until he comes out and says he did.

On January 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, NJTank said:

Btw this is old hat for Notre Dame. Knits Rockne made up George Tip's death bed speech.

 

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