William & Mary Loses Logo Appeal to NCAA

[zman65]

The College of William and Mary (nickname: "Tribe") was one among many NCAA schools to be on the list of schools that would be barred from postseason competition if they did not alter team names/logos featuring Native American imagery.

They appealed, and word came in that the nickname Tribe, having connotations outside of a Native American context, could remain as the team's nickname.

But the team's logo, featuring an interlocking W and M, was still deemed inappropriate because it features two feathers. The school, unlike North Dakota, has chosen not to sue the NCAA. So, as of today, they are officially looking into doing a logo redesign.

[powersurge]

Thats ridiculous. Feathers! friggin' feathers! I can see maybe an Indian face and or Tomahawk but FEATHERS!!!

ridiculous!

But FSU can still use feathers AND a spear.

Pure garbage.

[Gothamite]

Well, FSU did secure the consent of the Seminole nation. There is a significant distinction there.

[Geoff]

FSU can still use it because they have always had the blessing of the Seminole tribe of Florida. William and Mary's nickname was not tribe specific thus making it hard to get the proper blessing and paper work that would at least allow them to appeal to the NCAA. I think the Sioux can win this suit if they have the blessing of the Tribe.

[powersurge]

FSU can still use it because they have always had the blessing of the Seminole tribe of Florida. William and Mary's nickname was not tribe specific thus making it hard to get the proper blessing and paper work that would at least allow them to appeal to the NCAA. I think the Sioux can win this suit if they have the blessing of the Tribe.

I see your point, and I thought that at first. Then I began to think that since its not specific to a particular tribe and it really isn't demeaning a tribe it should be fine. To call yourself a tribe isn't the same as calling yourself Indians for example since most Native American tribes despise the use of that word, while 'tribe' is what they are call themselves. Maybe I'm not describing my point very well here, but I think they (NCAA) are splitting hairs (or better yet feathers). There are much worse names to go after other than "tribe".

[Gothamite]

Maybe there are, but the NCAA has an across-the-board policy. It's probably the only way to address it - make a sweeping policy, and those teams with a legitimate case to exempt themseves have to make that case.

I don't have a problem with the policy, either. Maybe it helps that I think "Tribe" is a stupid name....

[Epiphanic]

Personally, I think if the NCAA is concerned about the use of "derogatory" nicknames they shouldn't ban it from just the post-season. Grow a pair and ban it outright. That being said, I don't agree with the NCAA decision in the first place. In all honesty, why stop with Native American names? Why isn't Notre Dame in this? Using the nickname "Fighting Irish" is no different than North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" or Illinois' "Fighting Illini." Is it because the Irish aren't Native Americans? Is it because they have the "blessing" of the Irish community? Or is it because the Irish community really doesn't care? I'm not sure. If the NCAA never imposed this ban to be more politically correct, would there even be any discussion on the nickname of schools like North Dakota? I doubt it.

I hope W&M comes up with something really cool for a logo if they have to change it, but I think it's silly that they need to.

P.S. If I sound insensitive, I apologize. It is not my intent.

[powersurge]

Maybe there are, but the NCAA has an across-the-board policy. It's probably the only way to address it - make a sweeping policy, and those teams with a legitimate case to exempt themseves have to make that case.

I don't have a problem with the policy, either. Maybe it helps that I think "Tribe" is a stupid name....

Well we obviously disagree on the policy but now that I think of it I agree that 'Tribe' really is a dumb name for a team. It sounds like its missing something. I guess that 'something' is the NAME of a tribe huh?

[KJTALBOT]

I hope when the NCAA loses its case with North Dakota, it sets a precedent that invalidates its policy with every school. I would love to see damages. Any team that spent a dime to change their logos would get reimbursed. Punative damages would be great on top.

What a frakkin' joke.

[Gothamite]

Why isn't Notre Dame in this?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to let the affected groups decide. To my knowledge, there is no significant part of the Irish-American community that objects to Notre Dame's mascot (or the Celtics', for that matter).

Were there, then you would have a valid point. Until then, it doesn't seem like a very valid objection.

[leopard88]

Why isn't Notre Dame in this? Using the nickname "Fighting Irish" is no different than North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" or Illinois' "Fighting Illini." Is it because the Irish aren't Native Americans? Is it because they have the "blessing" of the Irish community? Or is it because the Irish community really doesn't care? I'm not sure.

Notre Dame isn't included because the name doesn't just have the blessing of the Irish community, it was selected/adopted by the Irish community that predominated at Notre Dame in the early 20th Century.

From irishlegends.com

Irish Lore

Sportswriter and Notre Dame grad Francis Wallace was the one who entrenched the "Fighting Irish" nickname in the 1920s, according to author Murray Sperber. Wallace used the moniker in his stories on Notre Dame football for the New York Post and the New York Daily News. Other papers followed suit, and the school itself adopted "Fighting Irish" as its official nickname in 1927.

In the Indian examples, I highly doubt you will find a situation where Native Americans themselves adopted the nicknames.

[powersurge]

I'm still perplexed by the fact that Marquette couldn't keep the name 'Warriors'. A warrior by definition is:

?noun

1. a person engaged or experienced in warfare; soldier.

2. a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics.

So what gives? Did they change because of other reasons?

[doafhat]

In the Indian examples, I highly doubt you will find a situation where Native Americans themselves adopted the nicknames.

I can't speak for all the universities across the country, but in Oklahoma at least there are numerous examples of high schools and colleges adopting Native American nicknames due to the prevalence of native peoples in our state. For example, Northeastern State University in Tahlequah adopted the "Redmen" nickname as a way of honoring the heritage of the school and acknowledging the ancestry of a great number of its students. NSU was founded in 1851 as the Cherokee National Female Seminary, and to this day still has the largest enrollment of Native American students of any public institution of higher education in the country. And as I said in the North Dakota thread, if you polled the Cherokee students on the NSU you'd find that a substantial majority either don't care about the issue or oppose changing the Redmen nickname.

On a related note, my high school alma mater's nickname of "Savages" was first suggested in 1924 by a Choctaw student. The nickname is still supported and endorsed by the Choctaw Nation, and many take pride in the school and its traditions. I guess we just have different priorities in this part of the world than to get bent out of shape by the name of a football team.

[tomhunter8]

NCAA - Nazi Collegiate Athletic Association

[leopard88]

In the Indian examples, I highly doubt you will find a situation where Native Americans themselves adopted the nicknames.

I can't speak for all the universities across the country, but in Oklahoma at least there are numerous examples of high schools and colleges adopting Native American nicknames due to the prevalence of native peoples in our state. For example, Northeastern State University in Tahlequah adopted the "Redmen" nickname as a way of honoring the heritage of the school and acknowledging the ancestry of a great number of its students. NSU was founded in 1851 as the Cherokee National Female Seminary, and to this day still has the largest enrollment of Native American students of any public institution of higher education in the country. And as I said in the North Dakota thread, if you polled the Cherokee students on the NSU you'd find that a substantial majority either don't care about the issue or oppose changing the Redmen nickname.

On a related note, my high school alma mater's nickname of "Savages" was first suggested in 1924 by a Choctaw student. The nickname is still supported and endorsed by the Choctaw Nation, and many take pride in the school and its traditions. I guess we just have different priorities in this part of the world than to get bent out of shape by the name of a football team.

Thanks for the additional information. Obviously, I spoke a little too quickly.

That being said, of the examples you provided, only your high school's nickname specifically seems to result from the suggestion or adoption of a nickname by a Native American group. With regard to the other high schools, do you know if the student bodies were involved in the selection process or did the administrations generally choose the Native American names because there were a large number of Native Americans at the schools and/or in the area?

[mydogisgomez]

Being from Texas, I'm offended that Houston uses "Texans" as their mascot. It's very degrading to me (especially 'cause the team stinks). I really don't care, but how is using Native American names any worse than any other ethnic or geographical group as a mascot? "Redskins" is pretty offensive, but Braves, Seminoles, Warriors are no worse than Minutemen, Cowboys, or Cornhuskers.

[jkrdevil]

Personally, I think if the NCAA is concerned about the use of "derogatory" nicknames they shouldn't ban it from just the post-season. Grow a pair and ban it outright. That being said, I don't agree with the NCAA decision in the first place. In all honesty, why stop with Native American names? Why isn't Notre Dame in this? Using the nickname "Fighting Irish" is no different than North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" or Illinois' "Fighting Illini." Is it because the Irish aren't Native Americans? Is it because they have the "blessing" of the Irish community? Or is it because the Irish community really doesn't care? I'm not sure. If the NCAA never imposed this ban to be more politically correct, would there even be any discussion on the nickname of schools like North Dakota? I doubt it.

I hope W&M comes up with something really cool for a logo if they have to change it, but I think it's silly that they need to.

P.S. If I sound insensitive, I apologize. It is not my intent.

The NCAA can't ban it outright because the NCAA has little control over the regular season. That falls to the conferences and individual schools. However the NCAA totally controls the postseason tournaments they sponsor, thus the ban for postseason. If it were across the board for regualr season and postseason they would run into more legal problems. That is also why this policy does not affect Division IA football programs at all because the NCAA does not sponsor a D-IA postseason.

[Gothamite]

In the Indian examples, I highly doubt you will find a situation where Native Americans themselves adopted the nicknames.

I can't speak for all the universities across the country, but in Oklahoma at least there are numerous examples of high schools and colleges adopting Native American nicknames due to the prevalence of native peoples in our state. For example, Northeastern State University in Tahlequah adopted the "Redmen" nickname as a way of honoring the heritage of the school and acknowledging the ancestry of a great number of its students. NSU was founded in 1851 as the Cherokee National Female Seminary, and to this day still has the largest enrollment of Native American students of any public institution of higher education in the country. And as I said in the North Dakota thread, if you polled the Cherokee students on the NSU you'd find that a substantial majority either don't care about the issue or oppose changing the Redmen nickname.

On a related note, my high school alma mater's nickname of "Savages" was first suggested in 1924 by a Choctaw student. The nickname is still supported and endorsed by the Choctaw Nation, and many take pride in the school and its traditions. I guess we just have different priorities in this part of the world than to get bent out of shape by the name of a football team.

Thanks for the additional information. Obviously, I spoke a little too quickly.

That being said, of the examples you provided, only your high school's nickname specifically seems to result from the suggestion or adoption of a nickname by a Native American group. With regard to the other high schools, do you know if the student bodies were involved in the selection process or did the administrations generally choose the Native American names because there were a large number of Native Americans at the schools and/or in the area?

If such a case could be supported, the NCAA would likely approve the nickname, as they did with Florida State's Seminoles. They have demonstrated a willingness to consider special cases.

NCAA - Nazi Collegiate Athletic Association

Given up on rational discourse so quickly?

Invoking Godwin's Law so early in a conversation indicates that you are aware of abundent weaknesses in your argument.

[doafhat]

Thanks for the additional information. Obviously, I spoke a little too quickly.

That being said, of the examples you provided, only your high school's nickname specifically seems to result from the suggestion or adoption of a nickname by a Native American group. With regard to the other high schools, do you know if the student bodies were involved in the selection process or did the administrations generally choose the Native American names because there were a large number of Native Americans at the schools and/or in the area?

I assume that in many cases, the nicknames were adopted over time as is the case with how many mascots at other schools were adopted so many years ago, much like the example of Notre Dame came to be known as the Fighting Irish as you mentioned before. One other example of Native American mascots in the state of Oklahoma that I can cite to an extent is the Stilwell High School Indians, who were originally the "Indians" then changed to "Pirates" in 1927 before reverting back to the Indians in 1934. I can't find the origins of the original Indians nickname, but here's the story of the 1934 restoration of the name written by Gregg Stilwell of stilwellindians.org:

Jerry Lewis was hired as head coach in 1933 and coached his squad to a finish of 6-4-1. Two of those wins, however, came via forfeits from Checotah and Westville. Lewis's second year as coach resulted in a 5-6 record. The 1934 season will best be remembered as the year that Indian Pride came back to Stilwell. Due to an overwhelming outcry of fans the Indian was officially brought back as the school symbol. The moniker had several years of history behind it as it was used by "Every team since the school was established here at statehood with the exception of the past six years." according to the 12-7-33 Stilwell Democrat-Journal, which went on to explain, "The name Indians is more suitable as practically every player on the team is of Indian extraction and Stilwell is the center of one of the greatest Indian populations in the United States." "New uniforms with an Indian emblem have been ordered to replace the old Pirate emblem" wrote the DJ "No change will be made in the school colors which will remain red and white."

[Fred T. Jane]

NCAA - Nazi Collegiate Athletic Association

Godwin's Law!