William & Mary Loses Logo Appeal to NCAA

[pcgd]

You want more rediculous than the NCAA allowing Florida State to keep theirs, but not others. (yes I know they have the seminole blessing, but there is no more Illiniwek so how can Illinois get blessing for their much more tasteful Chief??)

The NCAA made the Carthage Redmen/Lady Reds (DIII from Wisconsin) change their name to keep postseason play. The change? Red Men/Lady Reds. This was allowed but Fighting Souix is not.

Now I went there, designed the new logo, and still support the school; but that's just stupid.

[Galwegian]

I wonder what constitutes a "significant portion" of the community when it comes to having an objection to/being offended by a logo- is it one outspoken politician? are there scientific surveys conducted to assure that 51% of a given population finds a nickname offensive? It seems silly.

Switching topics, though, the real reason why FSU gets to keep their "Seminoles" nickname (and perhaps, to a lesser extent, why ND does too) has little or nothing to do with the blessing of the community in question and has everything to do with money. FSU is a premier, million-dollar program and a perennial BCS baby- they get to slide by, while the NCAA postures and "makes an example of" the DIII Carthages and the I-AA academic-focused schools like W&M. North Dakota is a perennial contender, true, but in a lower-revenue sport well outside of any major markets. If Duke was the Redmen or the University of Miami was the Indians, the NCAA would find an excuse for them, too. At the end of the day, when it comes to big-time sports, money talks above all else.

[rams80]

You know what, screw it. Attention Myles Brand, I am part Indianan (my mother hails from Fort Wayne), and I find the term "Hoosier" to be offensive, degrading, and abusive. It is reprehensible that the the University bearing the state's name should have such a moniker for its athletics program. It should be changed immediately or they should face stern sanctions.

[zman65]

FSU can still use it because they have always had the blessing of the Seminole tribe of Florida. William and Mary's nickname was not tribe specific thus making it hard to get the proper blessing and paper work that would at least allow them to appeal to the NCAA. I think the Sioux can win this suit if they have the blessing of the Tribe.

I see your point, and I thought that at first. Then I began to think that since its not specific to a particular tribe and it really isn't demeaning a tribe it should be fine. To call yourself a tribe isn't the same as calling yourself Indians for example since most Native American tribes despise the use of that word, while 'tribe' is what they are call themselves. Maybe I'm not describing my point very well here, but I think they (NCAA) are splitting hairs (or better yet feathers). There are much worse names to go after other than "tribe".

The issue stems to the "Tribe's" larger history. They used to be the Indians, and changed to Tribe years back due to similar pressures. I too think Tribe feels like a watered-down non-name.

[powersurge]

Now I don't know if there are any predominately Native American colleges but it would be funny to see them use the name 'White Devils' as their mascot and have the NCAA try to figure that out.

Back to the more serious issue at hand...

One of the previous posts hit it on the head with why some colleges are having a much easier time slipping by the name thing :

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[m0sherman]

I attend William and Mary, and President Gene Nichol (who happens to be a former Oklahoma State quarterback) has let the student body know that the school is not going to try to sue the NCAA, and will come up with a new logo for the fall of 2007.

With our nickname effectivley nuetered, I'd love to see a switch. Personally, I think the school should revert to their old nickname, "The Fighting Virginians". It would also be cool if we dropped the nickname altogether, and just called our teams things like "William and Mary Football", kind of a way to stick to the NCAA.

But we've already been informed we're keeping "Tribe". I'd put good money on the school just dropping the feathers and making the new logo a naked version of the old one:

But to be honest, this isn't a big change. W&M has refused to embrace the Tribe nickname for years, with the feathers being the last sign of any ties to Native Americans. Our mascot was Colonel Ebirt, a green blob that was obviously designed with the intent of not offending anyone:

So in conclusion, I wish the NCAA's ruling would force the school to finally create a new identity. But instead, we're getting an even more watered-down version of Tribe.

[cachechs]

The whole thing is ridiculous!!!!! This country has become so damn politically correct.

I say if you are going to do it for some scools/teams, let's do it across the board. I am sure almost every team nickname could be construed to offend someone.

[Gothamite]

The whole thing is ridiculous!!!!! This country has become so damn politically correct.

There's a difference between "politically correct" and "not being racist." The NCAA feels that this is the place to draw the line. Many Native American groups feel that they are correct to do so, some disagree.

I say if you are going to do it for some scools/teams, let's do it across the board. I am sure almost every team nickname could be construed to offend someone.

Not the most helpful argument. One cannot set policy on endless hypotheticals. Give examples, and they can be addressed.

Let's not talk about what could be, but rather what is.

[powersurge]

I attend William and Mary, and President Gene Nichol (who happens to be a former Oklahoma State quarterback) has let the student body know that the school is not going to try to sue the NCAA, and will come up with a new logo for the fall of 2007.

With our nickname effectivley nuetered, I'd love to see a switch. Personally, I think the school should revert to their old nickname, "The Fighting Virginians". It would also be cool if we dropped the nickname altogether, and just called our teams things like "William and Mary Football", kind of a way to stick to the NCAA.

But we've already been informed we're keeping "Tribe". I'd put good money on the school just dropping the feathers and making the new logo a naked version of the old one:

But to be honest, this isn't a big change. W&M has refused to embrace the Tribe nickname for years, with the feathers being the last sign of any ties to Native Americans. Our mascot was Colonel Ebirt, a green blob that was obviously designed with the intent of not offending anyone:

So in conclusion, I wish the NCAA's ruling would force the school to finally create a new identity. But instead, we're getting an even more watered-down version of Tribe.

I can't say that I would get excited by a big green blob at a football game. This is a true example of when political correctness goes horribly wrong. I feel for you man, but of course it could be worse. You could have a big 'W' and an 'M' to leading your cheers at the game.

[m0sherman]

I can't say that I would get excited by a big green blob at a football game. This is a true example of when political correctness goes horribly wrong. I feel for you man, but of course it could be worse. You could have a big 'W' and an 'M' to leading your cheers at the game.

True. Although at least that would be so lame it would be a little funny. Ebirt (and in case you haven't figured it out, "Ebirt" is "Tribe" spelled backwards) was just embarressing. When our football team advanced to the D1-AA semifinals in 2004, there was actually a small campaign to keep Ebirt off of the ESPN2 telecast. No luck, but Ebirt was gone the following the season.

Believe it or not, my father was at school here when William and Mary dropped "Indians" for "Tribe". I hate to think what kind of name this school (or other schools) will have in another thirty years.

At least I still have the Redskins.

[STL FANATIC]

The whole thing is ridiculous!!!!! This country has become so damn politically correct.

There's a difference between "politically correct" and "not being racist." The NCAA feels that this is the place to draw the line. Many Native American groups feel that they are correct to do so, some disagree.

I say if you are going to do it for some scools/teams, let's do it across the board. I am sure almost every team nickname could be construed to offend someone.

Not the most helpful argument. One cannot set policy on endless hypotheticals. Give examples, and they can be addressed.

Let's not talk about what could be, but rather what is.

Goth, MOST American Indians don't care or prefer the names. So what do you call it when the small vocal minority gets their way so they stop complaining?

If a team is named for a tribe and that specific tribe really hates it...well, then I guess MAYBE get rid of it. But, if the tribe blesses it, there is no tribe left (Illini), or it is a general reference and not tribal specific...well, there's no excuse for forcing it to be dropped.

[Cyclopsis Joe]

If I was William & Mary the new name would be the "William and Mary :censored: You."

Who could claim that was deragatory?

E: ":cencsored:" doesn't get the point across.

[Spearhead]

I would like to point out that even the use of the phrase "native Americans" is problematic. I am a native American because I was born in the United States. So was my father, my father's father, my great grandfather and every member of that line as far back as the mid 1700s and maybe even beyond. To the best of my knowledge, none of my ancestors were aboriginal and yet that does not make me any less of a native American.

Political groups like the ones that yearn to ban Indian mascocts and names tend to be the kind of people Orwell wrote about in 1984 who debase the language in an effort to control thought.

There are greater issues to be concerned about than whether or not this school or that university uses an aboriginal American or an Indian as a symbol.

[zman65]

I've always thought that Canadian Indians stole the coolest terminology by starting to refer to themselves as "First Nations people."

[FUNKAFIED]

This whole crusade against "Indian" names and the NCAA threatening to revoke post-season berths is shameful. This isn't about being offensive or degrading. It's a bunch of rich old farts with political power trying to get rid of some White Guilt.

Apparently the NCAA has solved all of their other problems.

[STL FANATIC]

I would like to point out that even the use of the phrase "native Americans" is problematic. I am a native American because I was born in the United States. So was my father, my father's father, my great grandfather and every member of that line as far back as the mid 1700s and maybe even beyond. To the best of my knowledge, none of my ancestors were aboriginal and yet that does not make me any less of a native American.

Political groups like the ones that yearn to ban Indian mascocts and names tend to be the kind of people Orwell wrote about in 1984 who debase the language in an effort to control thought.

There are greater issues to be concerned about than whether or not this school or that university uses an aboriginal American or an Indian as a symbol.

Exactly why I refer to them as American Indians everytime I can. Yes, there are other Indian's, but these people were called Indians mistake or not, and to make the clarification, we call them American Indians. Afterall, plenty of unrelated things share a similar name.

[xylograph]

I attended W&M when our beloved "Indians" became the "Tribe". It didn't happen all at once; it was a very silent and gradual shift over a 3-4 year period, so that no one would really notice. It worked. Now we're losing our logo.

Many W&M fans have seen this coming for a while. For weeks, the following vehicle magnet (among others) has been for sale outside the stadium during football games...

the resemblance is excellent...

[powersurge]

Goth, MOST American Indians don't care or prefer the names. So what do you call it when the small vocal minority gets their way so they stop complaining?

they're called the 'religious rite'

I attended W&M when our beloved "Indians" became the "Tribe". It didn't happen all at once; it was a very silent and gradual shift over a 3-4 year period, so that no one would really notice. It worked. Now we're losing our logo.

Many W&M fans have seen this coming for a while. For weeks, the following vehicle magnet (among others) has been for sale outside the stadium during football games...

the resemblance is excellent...

priceless...

...absolutely priceless. It should be their helmet logo.