Buffalo Bills to Toronto?

[Luigi74]

First off the only way Toronto would get a team is if they gave a team a deal sweeter than the one Baltimore gave Art Modell to move his franchise and the new stadium better be built when the team moves in since they would take a revenue hit playing in the Skydome for more than a season.

Next CBS would have a big problem if the Bills moved to Canada since they would lose a regional market on Sundays and they could most likely block a move since the NFL would be breaking it's contract with them since CBS paid for the rights to the 16 AFC teams not 15.

Also if the Bills ever came to the point that they moved the NFL would do everything in their power to get them in LA and I don't think the Wilson's could pull a Al Davis and just move the team since a move to Toronto would be across international borders which could give the NFL a chance to block it unlike other moves.

[93JC]

A team in Toronto would kill off the Argons, robbing the CFL of its largest market.

The CFLs largest markets are easily Edmonton and Calgary. There's comparatively little interest in Toronto because the CFL is not 'big' enough to ellicit support from the suits on Bay Street.

I could see an NFL team quickly killing off the Argonauts, but not the entire league.

On top of that, sports fans across Canada would adopt the Toronto team as their favorite team, much like they do with the Raptors and Blue Jays.

Ha ha ha ha, what kind of magical dream world are you living in?

Sports fans across Canada hate anything and everything associated with Toronto. If anything I'd harbour extreme ill will to the Toronto NFL franchise and NFL at large for killing off the Argonauts.

Wouldnt you like the build up of teams in your country that are in a first rate league?

No thanks, not much interest in having the most over-hyped sports entertainment product on the planet...

[CC97]

First off the only way Toronto would get a team is if they gave a team a deal sweeter than the one Baltimore gave Art Modell to move his franchise and the new stadium better be built when the team moves in since they would take a revenue hit playing in the Skydome for more than a season.

Next CBS would have a big problem if the Bills moved to Canada since they would lose a regional market on Sundays and they could most likely block a move since the NFL would be breaking it's contract with them since CBS paid for the rights to the 16 AFC teams not 15.

Also if the Bills ever came to the point that they moved the NFL would do everything in their power to get them in LA and I don't think the Wilson's could pull a Al Davis and just move the team since a move to Toronto would be across international borders which could give the NFL a chance to block it unlike other moves.

I think every point you made is wrong...

1. The Bills may be looking to move when Wilson dies anyways, I dont see how moving to a market 5 times the size of your current market will be a revenue hit

2. Believe it or not, but we do get CBS up here, Buffalo and Rochester, those are channels that reach probably around 7 million people, with a NFL football team in that market... there's already commercials on CBS Buffalo and Rochester now and then advertising events in Toronto, I don't see why there would be a problem with them selling Toronto region commercials for Toronto NFL games on those channels

3. I don't see the NFL blocking this move purely because it's across international borders... it's Toronto, a mere hour drive from Buffalo -- if the NFL was wise they'd see it as a team moving from a small market to a huge market, and the potential of opening up a nation-wide market

[Pat]

Chris is right. Even with playing in SkyDome for a couple seasons, I don't think they would take a revenue hit. Toronto is a huge market.

But there is no doubt the NFL wants LA, and at the first chance they get (a team wanting to move) you better believe they'll do everything they can possibly do to get that team in the second biggest market in the US. There is absolutely no comparing LA to TO in that sense.

[Luigi74]

First off the only way Toronto would get a team is if they gave a team a deal sweeter than the one Baltimore gave Art Modell to move his franchise and the new stadium better be built when the team moves in since they would take a revenue hit playing in the Skydome for more than a season.

Next CBS would have a big problem if the Bills moved to Canada since they would lose a regional market on Sundays and they could most likely block a move since the NFL would be breaking it's contract with them since CBS paid for the rights to the 16 AFC teams not 15.

Also if the Bills ever came to the point that they moved the NFL would do everything in their power to get them in LA and I don't think the Wilson's could pull a Al Davis and just move the team since a move to Toronto would be across international borders which could give the NFL a chance to block it unlike other moves.

I think every point you made is wrong...

1. The Bills may be looking to move when Wilson dies anyways, I dont see how moving to a market 5 times the size of your current market will be a revenue hit

2. Believe it or not, but we do get CBS up here, Buffalo and Rochester, those are channels that reach probably around 7 million people, with a NFL football team in that market... there's already commercials on CBS Buffalo and Rochester now and then advertising events in Toronto, I don't see why there would be a problem with them selling Toronto region commercials for Toronto NFL games on those channels

3. I don't see the NFL blocking this move purely because it's across international borders... it's Toronto, a mere hour drive from Buffalo -- if the NFL was wise they'd see it as a team moving from a small market to a huge market, and the potential of opening up a nation-wide market

1. It's not all about market size for owners it's stadium revenues, that is why the Rams, Raiders and Oilers all left large media markets for smaller ones. The Bills would take a hit playing more than a season at Skydome because it holds 45,000 while Rich Stadium holds 75,000.

2. I understand that CBS from Buffalo can be seen in Toronto but it isnt a local CBS network affiliate in Toronto and whatever Canadian network that get's the local rights would try and keep Toronto Bills games off CBS since it would hurt their ad sales. Sorta like how CBC Windsor doesnt show programs that are on the local Detroit network affiliates.

3. Right now any NFL owner can pretty much up and move their team and the NFL can do nothing to stop it inside the US, but if they tried to move out of the country the NFL might have a legal leg to stand on and would most likely fight it in court if they didnt want the move. Also the U.S. Congress would step in right away and try to block any move of a current team to Canada or any other country.

Also on the whole the Toronto NFL team would be Canada's team and cut a Canada wide TV deal it sounds great but the day after the Toronto team makes the deal Jerry Jones, Al Davis and Daniel Snyder will all try to cut their own tv deals which would send the NFL back to the pre-Pete Rozelle days of tv contracts.

[espo]

The statement that the NFL would try to move the Bills to LA would be tough and would call for massive realignment while a move to Toronto would not cause this kind of a shift to happen. I think that maybe one reason that the NFL would allow Toronto. Also if they would build a state of the art stadium in Toronto they would have a leg up on LA seeing as they can't get their act together and decide on a stadium plan and location.

[Grandmaster C]

A team in Toronto would kill off the Argons, robbing the CFL of its largest market. On top of that, sports fans across Canada would adopt the Toronto team as their favorite team, much like they do with the Raptors and Blue Jays.

No.

[Luigi74]

The statement that the NFL would try to move the Bills to LA would be tough and would call for massive realignment while a move to Toronto would not cause this kind of a shift to happen. I think that maybe one reason that the NFL would allow Toronto. Also if they would build a state of the art stadium in Toronto they would have a leg up on LA seeing as they can't get their act together and decide on a stadium plan and location.

There wouldnt have to be massive realignment if the Bills moved to LA they would only have to move 2 to 4 teams, if the NFL wanted them out of the AFC East as they could keep them in there to load the division up with big market teams like the NFC East. All of these scenario's would have the LA Bills going to the NFC, since I have a feeling the NFL will let Buffalo keep the Bills name and history and have a fresh start in LA.

2 team scenario - LA Bills to NFC South, Carolina Panthers to AFC East, the new NFC South would be sorta like the old NFC West with a LA team, Atlanta and New Orleans.

3 team scenario - LA Bills to NFC West, Carolina Panthers to AFC East and St. Louis Rams to NFC South, this is the switch that should happen and the NFL would most likely give the Rams a yearly pre-season game with the 49ers for moving.

4 team scenario - LA Bills to NFC West, Carolina Panthers to the AFC South, St. Louis Rams to the NFC South and the Indianapolis Colts back to the AFC East.

[OMMF]

2. Believe it or not, but we do get CBS up here, Buffalo and Rochester, those are channels that reach probably around 7 million people, with a NFL football team in that market... there's already commercials on CBS Buffalo and Rochester now and then advertising events in Toronto, I don't see why there would be a problem with them selling Toronto region commercials for Toronto NFL games on those channels

As has been pointed out in many of the NHL discussions, Canadian viewers do not figure in to US tv ratings. Perhaps the towns of Buffalo, Rochester, et al., would turn in to watch the Toronto team, but the televisions tuned in the GTA would not count towards CBS' bottom line. I see their dog in the fight.

[IceCap]

A team in Toronto would kill off the Argons, robbing the CFL of its largest market.

The CFLs largest markets are easily Edmonton and Calgary. There's comparatively little interest in Toronto because the CFL is not 'big' enough to ellicit support from the suits on Bay Street.

I could see an NFL team quickly killing off the Argonauts, but not the entire league.

You're a very naive person, you know that? Edmonton and Calgary are not the CFL's biggest market. Toronto is, end of discussion. Largest city in the league, most people, most TV ratings. These are simple facts. A larger percentage of Edmonton and Calgary sports fans may support the CFL then the percentage of Toronto sports fans that support the CFL, but Toronto still wins the numbers game.

Play your silly "all of Canada hates Toronto" song all you want, but the numbers don't lie. Toronto is Canada's biggest city, and it's the CFL's largest market, by far. To think otherwise is just misguided wishful thinking.

The death of the Argos would kill the CFL. The CFL would lose every viewer in Toronto who watched the Argos to the NFL's Toronto team. As explained above, that's a pretty big hit.

On top of that most Canadian fans across the country would adopt the Toronto NFL team as their favorite NFL team, which would cause them to watch the NFL more at the expense of the CFL. As to the claims that this wouldn't be the case....

On top of that, sports fans across Canada would adopt the Toronto team as their favorite team, much like they do with the Raptors and Blue Jays.

Ha ha ha ha, what kind of magical dream world are you living in?

Sports fans across Canada hate anything and everything associated with Toronto. If anything I'd harbour extreme ill will to the Toronto NFL franchise and NFL at large for killing off the Argonauts.

A team in Toronto would kill off the Argons, robbing the CFL of its largest market. On top of that, sports fans across Canada would adopt the Toronto team as their favorite team, much like they do with the Raptors and Blue Jays.

No.

I'll say this again (look back a few threads to see my my anti Canadian regionalism rant), the whole "we hate Toronto mentality is, to say it very lightly, silly, and dare I say unpatriotic. No there's nothing wrong with jokingly picking on Toronto, it's something the biggest city in every country has to put up with. It's this neurotic, pointless hatred that loudmouths like you exhibit that piss me off.

We're all one country people! Start :censored:ing acting like it. Toronto is the cultural and economic centre of Canada, that's the way it is. It's a very important part of this country, and to hate it for no other reason then you don't live there is unpatriotic. It's part of a larger regionalism problem we have in this country.

As for sports, I really don't see why you would say Canadian fans from coast to coast would not root for the Raptors and Blue Jays. So what if they play in Toronto. Toronto's a Canadian city, and they're their respective league's only Canadian franchise.

Why root for an American team? Why root for a team in a foreign country when you have one in your own country? BTW I would say the same thing if the Expos were the only Canadian MLB team, or if the Grizzlies were the only NBA team.

It's about loving your country. So what if a team plays in Toronto? Toronto's just as much a Canadian city as Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Hamilton, or Vancouver.

I think the majority of Canadian sports fans realize this, and I would bet that a vast majority of them would list the Raptors and the Blue Jays as at least one of their favorite teams in their respective sports. So I see no reason why a Toronto NFL team would be different. Perhaps fans in Vancouver won't abandon the Seahawks, but by large they will adopt the new Toronto team as well, and that will come at the expense of the BC Lions.

So basically what I'm saying is that yes, a Toronto NFL team would gather support from across the country. That would come at the expense of the CFL's livelihood, however. It's not a trade worth making.

Now Pat and Chris are right. There are a lot of advantages to moving the Bills to Toronto, that is if the Bills are bent on leaving Buffalo. Still, I don't want it to happen. Yes, I enjoy NFL football. I love the Chargers, and I can get into one of their games with as much intensity as I get into Leafs or Jays games. I follow the league, I enjoy NFL Films as much as the next guy, and I have a "dog in the fight" so to say.

HOWEVER, I don't want to see the NFL in Toronto, or any other Canadian city. I don't want to see it because it would mean the death of the CFL, a league I follow with as much interest as I do the NFL.

The way it's set up now is perfect. Let the NFL stay in America, and CFL will stay in Canada. Two different leagues promoting their unique versions of the game in their own countries.

Putting a team in Toronto to placate fans who don't want to drive to Buffalo just isn't worth the death of the CFL and Canadian football in general.

[OMMF]

I think the majority of Canadian sports fans realize this, and I would bet that a vast majority of them would list the Raptors and the Blue Jays as at least one of their favorite teams in their respective sports. So I see no reason why a Toronto NFL team would be different. Perhaps fans in Vancouver won't abandon the Seahawks, but by large they will adopt the new Toronto team as well, and that will come at the expense of the BC Lions.

So basically what I'm saying is that yes, a Toronto NFL team would gather support from across the country. That would come at the expense of the CFL's livelihood, however. It's not a trade worth making.

Why would people abandon one team, which is much closer despite it being in a "foreign country," just because a new one moved in? There are a lot of die-hard Seahawks fans across Western Canada and I just don't see them switching because Toronto has a team. While I'm sure there were lots of Baltimore residents who switched to Ravens when they came to town, you can't discount the many years that some of those people rooted for the Redskins. Just because one team is in the same state, city, country you are doesn't necessarily translate into appreciation for them. Hell, I know a lot of Thunderbird fans who live in Snohomish County/Everett but you'll never catch them in a Silvertips jersey even though they represent their city and are a stones throw away.

Also, why would rooting for the Toronto NFL team come at the expense of the Lions? I am an avid Red Sox supporter but that has had 0 effect on how much I spend on and watch the Mariners. While there would be some nationalistic pride in a boy from Burnaby rooting for the Toronto NFL team, he's still going to have a much stronger connection to his hometown heroes.

[93JC]

You're a very naive person, you know that? Edmonton and Calgary are not the CFL's biggest market. Toronto is, end of discussion. Largest city in the league, most people, most TV ratings. These are simple facts. A larger percentage of Edmonton and Calgary sports fans may support the CFL then the percentage of Toronto sports fans that support the CFL, but Toronto still wins the numbers game.

Play your silly "all of Canada hates Toronto" song all you want, but the numbers don't lie. Toronto is Canada's biggest city, and it's the CFL's largest market, by far. To think otherwise is just misguided wishful thinking.

The death of the Argos would kill the CFL. The CFL would lose every viewer in Toronto who watched the Argos to the NFL's Toronto team. As explained above, that's a pretty big hit.

On top of that most Canadian fans across the country would adopt the Toronto NFL team as their favoriteNFL team, which would cause them to watch the NFL more at the expense of the CFL. As to the claims that this wouldn't be the case....

I'm the na*ve one?

Buddy, go do some research. Yes, I know quite well that Toronto is the biggest city in Canada. We all know that.

Doesn't mean there are more people in Toronto interested in the CFL than people in Calgary and Edmonton.

Who's had the best attendance in the league? Edmonton and Calgary. What is the CFL's biggest revenue stream? The gates, by far.

Christ, wasn't it only two years ago that the Lions, Stampeders, Eskimos, Roughriders, Blue Bombers and Alouettes had to pick up the tab for a few weeks of the Tiger-Cats' and Argonauts' payrolls because they were doing THAT bad financially?

Oh yes, Toronto is the CFL's great panacea...

I mean, Jesus buddy: CFL TV ratings in Ontario are atrocious. They're down 30%!

I'll say this again (look back a few threads to see my my anti Canadian regionalism rant), the whole "we hate Toronto mentality is, to say it very lightly, silly, and dare I say unpatriotic.

So, what, the patriotic thing to do would be to worship Toronto as a our great Canadian culture mecca?

Maybe it's pompous buffoons that make it seem as though the rest of us should be grateful we're even associated with Toronto that drives us to distaste for it.

(*wink* *wink*)

No there's nothing wrong with jokingly picking on Toronto, it's something the biggest city in every country has to put up with. It's this neurotic, pointless hatred that loudmouths like you exhibit that piss me off.

We're all one country people! Start :censored:ing acting like it. Toronto is the cultural and economic centre of Canada, that's the way it is. It's a very important part of this country, and to hate it for no other reason then you don't live there is unpatriotic. It's part of a larger regionalism problem we have in this country.

Maybe the bullcrap about Toronto being the cultural centre of Canada drives us to 'neurotic hatred'.

"Very important part"? I thought it was ONLY part of this country. Or at least that's the impression I get from your comments ('cultural centre' and so forth).

I would say regional bickering is a big problem, yes. At least we agree on something. I'll have to go look for this big anti-Canadian-regionalism rant of yours: I hope for your sake, for the sake of Canadian unity and my faith in Ontarians knowing sweet all about the rest of the country, that it wasn't a big "you guys should all love Toronto, and if you don't you're unpatriotic" wank-fest...

As for sports, I really don't see why you would say Canadian fans from coast to coast would not root for the Raptors and Blue Jays. So what if they play in Toronto. Toronto's a Canadian city, and they're their respective league's only Canadian franchise. Why root for an American team? Why root for a team in a foreign country when you have one in your own country?

So where did you get the idea we should all worship the Raptors and Blue Jays because they're the only teams in their respective leagues in Canada? They're still the Toronto Raptors and Toronto Blue Jays.

Oh yeah, that's right, Toronto is the _____ centre of Canada. All hail Toronto!

But, really: do you know how bad TV ratings are for Raptors and Blue Jays games?

The average viewership of a Raptors game on TSN was 122,000 last year. Nationwide.

We don't give a crap about the Toronto teams, buddy.

Why do you assume any of us want to cheer for any NFL team? I personally avoid the whole mess altogether. 10% sport, 90% BS hype.

BTW I would say the same thing if the Expos were the only Canadian MLB team, or if the Grizzlies were the only NBA team.

Well la-dee-da, I hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

It's about loving your country. So what if a team plays in Toronto? Toronto's just as much a Canadian city as Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Hamilton, or Vancouver. I think the majority of Canadian sports fans realize this, and I would bet that a vast majority of them would list the Raptors and the Blue Jays as at least one of their favorite teams in their respective sports.

Just as much? You said Toronto was the cultural centre of Canada, certainly it's much MORE a Canadian city than Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, etc.

Quit contradicting yourself.

So I see no reason why a Toronto NFL team would be different. Perhaps fans in Vancouver won't abandon the Seahawks, but by large they will adopt the new Toronto team as well, and that will come at the expense of the BC Lions.

Don't you find it odd that you can speak as to the behaviour of everyone else in the country? Are you from Vancouver? Have you spent a lot of time in Vancouver? No?

Then STFU.

So basically what I'm saying is that yes, a Toronto NFL team would gather support from across the country.

And I'm saying it will, but not near the degree you assume it will, because we all hate you Ontarian bastards.

Now Pat and Chris are right. There are a lot of advantages to moving the Bills to Toronto, that is if the Bills are bent on leaving Buffalo. Still, I don't want it to happen. Yes, I enjoy NFL football. I love the Chargers, and I can get into one of their games with as much intensity as I get into Leafs or Jays games. I follow the league, I enjoy NFL Films as much as the next guy, and I have a "dog in the fight" so to say.

HOWEVER, I don't want to see the NFL in Toronto, or any other Canadian city. I don't want to see it because it would mean the death of the CFL, a league I follow with as much interest as I do the NFL.

The way it's set up now is perfect. Let the NFL stay in America, and CFL will stay in Canada. Two different leagues promoting their unique versions of the game in their own countries.

Putting a team in Toronto to placate fans who don't want to drive to Buffalo just isn't worth the death of the CFL and Canadian football in general.

More than anything I'm antagonizing you because you're arrogant enough to assume as soon as the NFL made headway in Toronto the whole damned country would drop all support for the CFL and worship the NFL as the god-like organisation that it is.

I don't appreciate that kind of stupidity.

[sacker12]

That will never happen, and I hope it never happens.

Because then Montreal would want an NFL team.

They didnt even want their baseball team so I doubt they would want an American football team.

They wanted baseball, but MLB didn't want them to want it. Besides, baseball and football are completely unrelated anyway.

That sounds about right. The 1994 strike when the Expos were in first place, and Selig not giving the Expos some extra money to pay the call-ups when they were still in contention for the Wild Card were prime examples of MLB aiding in killing the Expos franchise.

[Grish]

Also, keep in mind if the NFL was interested or a team was do not think they would play a game or two there. The NFL has gone to or are going to Japan, Mexico, and Great Britian in recent years. You think if there was easy money to be made in Canada they would place a game there. I think the NFL will not go to Canada for the main reason that they have gentlemen's agreement because of the CFL and there are easier places to make money with then any city in Canada at this point.

The NFL is not going to shake up the CFL or attempt to put them out of business, for the very same reasons they make sure they don't upset the College Football processes. The CFL provides another FREE minor league for the NFL to get players from.

Does this mean Canada is not a good place for the Bills to search out. No, not really. However, why would you pass at a chance for the #1 TV market in the world to move an hour north of where they are struggling now. Last time I checked traffic flows both ways and I don't hear or see that people in Toronto driving to Buffalo for a game which leads me to say I don't see people in Buffalo going an hour north to support a team they once had.

The NFL unless it struggling has no need to go outside the US for a market. There are too many cities inside the US that will "give up the farm" for the NFL.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

As a Bills fan, the whole topic depresses me. Not because they'll move to Toronto, but because once old man Wilson dies, they'll move somewhere.

I'd rather Toronto than Los Angeles, but why can't they just stay put? What exactly is the point of a 75,000 person stadium in Western New York without a team to play in it?

[Neon_Matrix]

You're a very naive person, you know that? Edmonton and Calgary are not the CFL's biggest market. Toronto is, end of discussion. Largest city in the league, most people, most TV ratings. These are simple facts. A larger percentage of Edmonton and Calgary sports fans may support the CFL then the percentage of Toronto sports fans that support the CFL, but Toronto still wins the numbers game.

Play your silly "all of Canada hates Toronto" song all you want, but the numbers don't lie. Toronto is Canada's biggest city, and it's the CFL's largest market, by far. To think otherwise is just misguided wishful thinking.

The death of the Argos would kill the CFL. The CFL would lose every viewer in Toronto who watched the Argos to the NFL's Toronto team. As explained above, that's a pretty big hit.

On top of that most Canadian fans across the country would adopt the Toronto NFL team as their favoriteNFL team, which would cause them to watch the NFL more at the expense of the CFL. As to the claims that this wouldn't be the case....

I'm the na*ve one?

Buddy, go do some research. Yes, I know quite well that Toronto is the biggest city in Canada. We all know that.

Doesn't mean there are more people in Toronto interested in the CFL than people in Calgary and Edmonton.

Who's had the best attendance in the league? Edmonton and Calgary. What is the CFL's biggest revenue stream? The gates, by far.

Christ, wasn't it only two years ago that the Lions, Stampeders, Eskimos, Roughriders, Blue Bombers and Alouettes had to pick up the tab for a few weeks of the Tiger-Cats' and Argonauts' payrolls because they were doing THAT bad financially?

Oh yes, Toronto is the CFL's great panacea...

I mean, Jesus buddy: CFL TV ratings in Ontario are atrocious. They're down 30%!

I'll say this again (look back a few threads to see my my anti Canadian regionalism rant), the whole "we hate Toronto mentality is, to say it very lightly, silly, and dare I say unpatriotic.

So, what, the patriotic thing to do would be to worship Toronto as a our great Canadian culture mecca?

Maybe it's pompous buffoons that make it seem as though the rest of us should be grateful we're even associated with Toronto that drives us to distaste for it.

(*wink* *wink*)

No there's nothing wrong with jokingly picking on Toronto, it's something the biggest city in every country has to put up with. It's this neurotic, pointless hatred that loudmouths like you exhibit that piss me off.

We're all one country people! Start :censored:ing acting like it. Toronto is the cultural and economic centre of Canada, that's the way it is. It's a very important part of this country, and to hate it for no other reason then you don't live there is unpatriotic. It's part of a larger regionalism problem we have in this country.

Maybe the bullcrap about Toronto being the cultural centre of Canada drives us to 'neurotic hatred'.

"Very important part"? I thought it was ONLY part of this country. Or at least that's the impression I get from your comments ('cultural centre' and so forth).

I would say regional bickering is a big problem, yes. At least we agree on something. I'll have to go look for this big anti-Canadian-regionalism rant of yours: I hope for your sake, for the sake of Canadian unity and my faith in Ontarians knowing sweet all about the rest of the country, that it wasn't a big "you guys should all love Toronto, and if you don't you're unpatriotic" wank-fest...

As for sports, I really don't see why you would say Canadian fans from coast to coast would not root for the Raptors and Blue Jays. So what if they play in Toronto. Toronto's a Canadian city, and they're their respective league's only Canadian franchise. Why root for an American team? Why root for a team in a foreign country when you have one in your own country?

So where did you get the idea we should all worship the Raptors and Blue Jays because they're the only teams in their respective leagues in Canada? They're still the Toronto Raptors and Toronto Blue Jays.

Oh yeah, that's right, Toronto is the _____ centre of Canada. All hail Toronto!

But, really: do you know how bad TV ratings are for Raptors and Blue Jays games?

The average viewership of a Raptors game on TSN was 122,000 last year. Nationwide.

We don't give a crap about the Toronto teams, buddy.

Why do you assume any of us want to cheer for any NFL team? I personally avoid the whole mess altogether. 10% sport, 90% BS hype.

BTW I would say the same thing if the Expos were the only Canadian MLB team, or if the Grizzlies were the only NBA team.

Well la-dee-da, I hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

It's about loving your country. So what if a team plays in Toronto? Toronto's just as much a Canadian city as Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Hamilton, or Vancouver. I think the majority of Canadian sports fans realize this, and I would bet that a vast majority of them would list the Raptors and the Blue Jays as at least one of their favorite teams in their respective sports.

Just as much? You said Toronto was the cultural centre of Canada, certainly it's much MORE a Canadian city than Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, etc.

Quit contradicting yourself.

So I see no reason why a Toronto NFL team would be different. Perhaps fans in Vancouver won't abandon the Seahawks, but by large they will adopt the new Toronto team as well, and that will come at the expense of the BC Lions.

Don't you find it odd that you can speak as to the behaviour of everyone else in the country? Are you from Vancouver? Have you spent a lot of time in Vancouver? No?

Then STFU.

So basically what I'm saying is that yes, a Toronto NFL team would gather support from across the country.

And I'm saying it will, but not near the degree you assume it will, because we all hate you Ontarian bastards.

Now Pat and Chris are right. There are a lot of advantages to moving the Bills to Toronto, that is if the Bills are bent on leaving Buffalo. Still, I don't want it to happen. Yes, I enjoy NFL football. I love the Chargers, and I can get into one of their games with as much intensity as I get into Leafs or Jays games. I follow the league, I enjoy NFL Films as much as the next guy, and I have a "dog in the fight" so to say.

HOWEVER, I don't want to see the NFL in Toronto, or any other Canadian city. I don't want to see it because it would mean the death of the CFL, a league I follow with as much interest as I do the NFL.

The way it's set up now is perfect. Let the NFL stay in America, and CFL will stay in Canada. Two different leagues promoting their unique versions of the game in their own countries.

Putting a team in Toronto to placate fans who don't want to drive to Buffalo just isn't worth the death of the CFL and Canadian football in general.

More than anything I'm antagonizing you because you're arrogant enough to assume as soon as the NFL made headway in Toronto the whole damned country would drop all support for the CFL and worship the NFL as the god-like organisation that it is.

I don't appreciate that kind of stupidity.

You know what we don't appreciate here? Pr!cks like you like to attack other members just because they offer a counter argument. So what if you hate Toronto, WE GET IT AND WE DON'T CARE. You can hate it for whatever stupid reason you want but you DONT and SHOULDN'T ATTACK anyone for defending it from your stupid, generalized remarks. Christ buddy, you fit the Ontatio jack@$$ sterotype better than anyone else I have ever seen, and by the looks of it, you're giving the region you hail from a bad reputation.

Why do you find it nessesscary to attack and take what Icecap said out of context in order to defend your anti-Toronto bias generalizations? All he was trying to say is that an NFL team in Canada could and most likely would appeal to many people and could potentially pull support from some CFL teams. The Argos would probably fold or move as a result of an NFL team moving north, there is no denying that and their loss would impact the CFL as they would have 1 less team (possibly 2 as Hamilton would find it hard to survive in the shadow of an NFL juggernaut) as well as lost coverage that would be devoted to covering the NFL team. With two lost markets and reduced coverage, the CFL would lose a lot of revenue and could possibly collapse as a result. Hes not saying everyone will jump behind this NFL team, hes saying some people would support a home grown team, much like many Canadian's will support a Canadian team which makes it to the Stanley Cup Finals who isn't their normal team. The CFL wouldn't die right off the bat, it might not die at all, but it would most certainly lose 2 franchises and would be hard to be able to run at its current level with only BC, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina and Montreal teams. They may have large fan support, they may have large tv coverage, but their markets just aren't big enough to support the second tier football league in this country behind an NFL franchise.

So what if I'm from Toronto and proud of it, I'm not going to let you attack my home with a bias, sterotypical and un-educated attack. You know Icecap and I are correct and we're not trying to say all of Canada will jump on board and drop support for the CFL. Read what I wrote (if you can read, which, by the looks of it doesn't seem like you can) and maybe, just maybe, you will realise that we're not protraying Toronto as the Centre of the Universe but just stating reality. If you want to pick a fight with me as well, don't bother, be a man and back down and accept defeat, no point in fighting in a lost cause. Keep your insults to yourself, don't be an immature pr!ck and call out other members just because you disagree with them and can't handle having your bias comments called out or (miss)information corrected.

[Guest]

Hey, speaking of the Expos and things stolen from Montreal, does anyone else hate how Bill 101 totally purged so much vibrant multiculturalism from the city? Worthless frog legislation, if you ask me. I'd find a way to move up there if it was more welcoming of folk like me, whose Francais, ce n'est pas tres fort maintenant puisque j'ai fini lycée. (Cedille where necessary, board won't accept it.) I'd blame some of the Expos' downfall on that as well.

[93JC]

Keep your insults to yourself,

No...

Pr!cks like you ...

your stupid... remarks. Christ buddy, you fit the Ontatio jack@$$ sterotype better than anyone else I have ever seen, and by the looks of it, you're giving the region you hail from a bad reputation.

... un-educated attack...

Read what I wrote (if you can read, which, by the looks of it doesn't seem like you can)...

...immature pr!ck...

... you first, :censored:face.

maybe, just maybe, you will realise that we're not protraying Toronto as the Centre of the Universe but just stating reality.

Your version of reality, where Toronto is the "cultural centre of Canada", we're all going to worship the clearly superior NFL product from Toronto, we should grovel at Toronto's feet for doing us a huge favour by bringing an NFL team to Canada, and maybe one day we can grow up and be just like Toronto?

[Neon_Matrix]

Keep your insults to yourself,

No...

Pr!cks like you ...

your stupid... remarks. Christ buddy, you fit the Ontatio jack@$$ sterotype better than anyone else I have ever seen, and by the looks of it, you're giving the region you hail from a bad reputation.

... un-educated attack...

Read what I wrote (if you can read, which, by the looks of it doesn't seem like you can)...

...immature pr!ck...

... you first, :censored:face.

maybe, just maybe, you will realise that we're not protraying Toronto as the Centre of the Universe but just stating reality.

Your version of reality, where Toronto is the "cultural centre of Canada", we're all going to worship the clearly superior NFL product from Toronto, we should grovel at Toronto's feet for doing us a huge favour by bringing an NFL team to Canada, and maybe one day we can grow up and be just like Toronto?

I suggest you leave this community if you want to insult other members, we dont need or want people like you.

You also completely just proved my point of not being able to read. If you could, you wouldn't still be thinking that I'm saying all of Canada would jump on the NFL team bandwaggon. LEARN TO READ, it will help you in life! And some food for thought, Toronto is the most multicultural city not just in Canada but in North America. I'd show you the stats but I don't feel like bugging my prof on reading week. I swear, if you could read you wouldn't have posted your last responce because it has nothing to do with what I posted.

Please, do us all a favor and leave, leave before you make yourself out to be more of a retard than you already look.

[93JC]

Pr!cks like you ...

your stupid... remarks. Christ buddy, you fit the Ontatio jack@$$ sterotype better than anyone else I have ever seen, and by the looks of it, you're giving the region you hail from a bad reputation.

... un-educated attack...

Read what I wrote (if you can read, which, by the looks of it doesn't seem like you can)...

...immature pr!ck...

You also completely just proved my point of not being able to read. If you could...

LEARN TO READ, it will help you in life!

I swear, if you could read...

Please, do us all a favor and leave, leave before you make yourself out to be more of a retard than you already look.

I suggest you leave this community if you want to insult other members. We dont need or want people like you. The door is back that way; don't let it hit your ass on the way out.