Buffalo Bills to Toronto?

[Breakwood]

First of 93JC, contribute more then 17 posts before telling people to "leave this community."

Secondly, whether you like it or not, Toronto is the cultural centre of Canada. That's just a fact. Just like New York is the cultural centre of the States, and Moscow is for Russia, Toronto is for Canada. That's not me being arrogant, that's cold, hard, fact.

If only that were true!

The current US cultural centers, in as much as the entire country uses them as examples of how to act, are suburban "towne centers" (intentionally spelled that way to be cute) featuring such beacons of culture as Target, EB Games, Qdoba, Tinseltown, Dollar Tree, and other strip mall crap that looks the same no matter where you are.

New York City is celebrated by the world, but vilified as immoral cesspool throughout most of the US. I don't know if Canada ever got those Pace Picante commercials, but I think the "New York City!!" sentiment is spot on. I'm glad you recognize New York as the incredible place that it is. In actual America, i.e. the large swaths of land outside of the major cities, buildings, diversity, classical music, and stores that aren't franchises are looked on with suspicion and hate.

I don't think I could agree more with the point that I think you are trying to make. The last sentence about diversity, music, and franchises is (unfortunately) so very true. If I get more time (and if this thread is still alive) I'll elaborate more on this.

Living in Toronto for the past year, and spending my last 10 years in the GTA, Toronto has no culture of its own. Not to say there is no culture here, because it is one of the most culturaly diverse cities in the world, but it lacks it's own culture. Sure it's nice to have chinatown, Greektown and Little Italy, but sometimes it's good to have Toronto, and that's pretty hard to find here. In Paris, Boston, London, etc. there is a strong local culture that is obviously it's own. That's probably my only problem with this city (other than the Leafs).

[Luigi74]

First of 93JC, contribute more then 17 posts before telling people to "leave this community."

Secondly, whether you like it or not, Toronto is the cultural centre of Canada. That's just a fact. Just like New York is the cultural centre of the States, and Moscow is for Russia, Toronto is for Canada. That's not me being arrogant, that's cold, hard, fact.

If only that were true!

The current US cultural centers, in as much as the entire country uses them as examples of how to act, are suburban "towne centers" (intentionally spelled that way to be cute) featuring such beacons of culture as Target, EB Games, Qdoba, Tinseltown, Dollar Tree, and other strip mall crap that looks the same no matter where you are.

New York City is celebrated by the world, but vilified as immoral cesspool throughout most of the US. I don't know if Canada ever got those Pace Picante commercials, but I think the "New York City!!" sentiment is spot on. I'm glad you recognize New York as the incredible place that it is. In actual America, i.e. the large swaths of land outside of the major cities, buildings, diversity, classical music, and stores that aren't franchises are looked on with suspicion and hate.

NYC isnt a vilified immoral cesspool in the eyes of Middle America anymore that tag has been LA's for the past 15 years or so.

[Original6]

Please for the love of god no! Keep American football in the US, and Canadian Football in Canada. I think most Americans and Canadians can agree on that.

Nahhhhhhhh CFL sucks balls. Let it die.

[CC97]

Please for the love of god no! Keep American football in the US, and Canadian Football in Canada. I think most Americans and Canadians can agree on that.

Nahhhhhhhh CFL sucks balls. Let it die.

I wonder how many feel the same about you

[Lee.]

You know what we don't appreciate here? Pr!cks like you like to attack other members just because they offer a counter argument. So what if you hate Toronto, WE GET IT AND WE DON'T CARE. You can hate it for whatever stupid reason you want but you DONT and SHOULDN'T ATTACK anyone for defending it from your stupid, generalized remarks. Christ buddy, you fit the Ontatio jack@$$ sterotype better than anyone else I have ever seen, and by the looks of it, you're giving the region you hail from a bad reputation.

Here, here!

Why do you find it nessesscary to attack and take what Icecap said out of context

Oh, dammit, I thought you were talking to Icecap in the first place.

All he was trying to say is that an NFL team in Canada could and most likely would appeal to many people and could potentially pull support from some CFL teams. The Argos would probably fold or move as a result of an NFL team moving north, there is no denying that and their loss would impact the CFL as they would have 1 less team (possibly 2 as Hamilton would find it hard to survive in the shadow of an NFL juggernaut) as well as lost coverage that would be devoted to covering the NFL team. With two lost markets and reduced coverage, the CFL would lose a lot of revenue and could possibly collapse as a result. Hes not saying everyone will jump behind this NFL team, hes saying some people would support a home grown team,

No, he's saying that all Canadians would get behind a Toronto NFL team, because if we don't, we're idiotic, :censored:s who don't love their country. I thought I just had this argument with people last week. Besides, a Toronto team would NOT be home grown, the Argos would be, since they would employ Canadian athletes.

much like many Canadian's will support a Canadian team which makes it to the Stanley Cup Finals who isn't their normal team. The CFL wouldn't die right off the bat, it might not die at all, but it would most certainly lose 2 franchises and would be hard to be able to run at its current level with only BC, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina and Montreal teams. They may have large fan support, they may have large tv coverage, but their markets just aren't big enough to support the second tier football league in this country behind an NFL franchise.

You forgot about Winnipeg, which is a rather typically Toronto thing to do.

So what if I'm from Toronto and proud of it, I'm not going to let you attack my home with a bias, sterotypical and un-educated attack. You know Icecap and I are correct and we're not trying to say all of Canada will jump on board and drop support for the CFL. Read what I wrote (if you can read, which, by the looks of it doesn't seem like you can) and maybe, just maybe, you will realise that we're not protraying Toronto as the Centre of the Universe but just stating reality. If you want to pick a fight with me as well, don't bother, be a man and back down and accept defeat, no point in fighting in a lost cause. Keep your insults to yourself, don't be an immature pr!ck and call out other members just because you disagree with them and can't handle having your bias comments called out or (miss)information corrected.

SOunds like most of the bias and perceived reality is coming from the Toronto area, to me. If you two can't handle the fact that the rest of the country is sick and :censored:ing tired of having Southern Ontario shoved down their collective throats, maybe try a little bit of humility now and then, and realize you aren't the end-all.

I have no idea who this 93JC guy is, but mister, I like the cut of your jib. Most of the newbs in this joint are pretty :censored:in' jibless.

[Fred T. Jane]

I have no idea who this 93JC guy is, but mister, I like the cut of your jib. Most of the newbs in this joint are pretty :censored:in' jibless.

I finally got around to reading this thread, and I completely concur. Several are post-of-the-day material, IMO.

[93JC]

Ha! Awesome!

[CC97]

It's touching to see people united by their hatred of people who don't hate them.

[Fred T. Jane]

It's touching to see people united by their hatred of people who don't hate them.

*searches furiously for a post saying where Fred T. Jane says he hates people from Toronto, but fails miserably*

[CC97]

It's touching to see people united by their hatred of people who don't hate them.

*searches furiously for a post saying where Fred T. Jane says he hates people from Toronto, but fails miserably*

*searches furiously for a post saying CC97 says Fred T. Jane hates people from Toronto*

[BB61]

It's touching to see people united by their hatred of people who don't hate them.

*searches furiously for a post saying where Fred T. Jane says he hates people from Toronto, but fails miserably*

*searches furiously for a post saying CC97 says Fred T. Jane hates people from Toronto*

*searches furiously for that wonderful "winning a fight on the internet is like winning in the special olympics" graphic...*

[Fred T. Jane]

*searches furiously for a post saying CC97 says Fred T. Jane hates people from Toronto*

<Rhetorical Question> But did you succeed? Informing the audience where you found the quote in question is the key to the supposed humour found in the *searching furiously...* statement.</Rhetorical Question>

*searches furiously for a funny picture that says he concurs, yet fails miserably*

And geez, 6 seconds from Google search to copying of the URL for the Special Olympics picture. You suck at trying to find stuff...

[DEAD!]

It's touching to see people united by their hatred of people who don't hate them.

*searches furiously for a post saying where Fred T. Jane says he hates people from Toronto, but fails miserably*

*searches furiously for a post saying CC97 says Fred T. Jane hates people from Toronto*

*searches furiously for that wonderful "winning a fight on the internet is like winning in the special olympics" graphic...*

*searches for tomato*

[BB61]

And geez, 6 seconds from Google search to copying of the URL for the Special Olympics picture. You suck at trying to find stuff...

It's not so much that I was trying, actually. I would have, had I not been at work.

Not that anyone's looking right now, but I'm trying to multitask.

[Neon_Matrix]

You forgot about Winnipeg, which is a rather typically Toronto thing to do.

Ok ok, I'm sorry I forgot Winnipeg, I knew I was missing a team but I didn't feel like looking it up. BTW Lamicus, wheres the love? Why is it people hate us just because the most remote towns in Alberta know more about whats happening in Toronto than they do in their own backyard? We never did anything bad besides organize the European settlement of the west and turn it into a country. Just remember you folk wouldn't be out there if it wasn't for us in the centre.

[Guest]

I totally agree with dsgitlin that exurban "towne center" sprawl is horrible, but some people like that lifestyle, wasteful, lifeless, and banal as it may be. I aspire to live in Chicago somewhere down the road, but if a friend would prefer Gurnee, I can't begrudge him that. Well, I can privately, but no sense in ranting about the banality of exurbia. Suburbia isn't necessarily bad, though. I grew up in the northwest suburbs, which have more than their fair share of affected-added-E strip malls, but also good public and private schools, and railroad service so that you can reach the city easily. There doesn't have to be shame associated with suburban living. Then again, we're talking separate beasts here with respect to suburbs and exurbs.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I totally agree with dsgitlin that exurban "towne center" sprawl is horrible, but some people like that lifestyle, wasteful, lifeless, and banal as it may be. I aspire to live in Chicago somewhere down the road, but if a friend would prefer Gurnee, I can't begrudge him that. Well, I can privately, but no sense in ranting about the banality of exurbia. Suburbia isn't necessarily bad, though. I grew up in the northwest suburbs, which have more than their fair share of affected-added-E strip malls, but also good public and private schools, and railroad service so that you can reach the city easily. There doesn't have to be shame associated with suburban living. Then again, we're talking separate beasts here with respect to suburbs and exurbs.

I'm glad you noticed the distinction. I'm no huge fan of suburbs either, but it's not that they don't have their place, because they do. As populations grew, suburbs became begrudingly necessary. But exurbs and McMansions and the corresponding waste? Bad, bad, bad. Even worse? A new trend in planned urban/rural communities. That is, building phony town(e) squares in the middle of cornfields and pretending it's completely normal to live on what is basically a movie set while pretending you're in a thriving, cultural, urban square. But instead of Joe's (or Larry, or Jean, or whatever) Espresso, you have Starbucks. Instead of Rick's Ice Cream, it's Cold Stone. And instead of something original, organic and worthwhile, you have corporate-designed and corporate-approved domestic living arrangements. It's just so sad.

Spoken like a true lib, huh?

[WideRight]

I think the culture capital argument is off base, for one key reason. The cultural capital is not the location where the 80% of the middle-class live, it's where innovation happens. Middle America/Canada exurbs and shopping malls is the bourgeois cultural capital of bland, banal and watered down culture. If you want cutting edge art, music, fashion, literature, etc. you need to find those locations where the 5% of the population who set the trends (trends Des Moines gets 10 years later if at all) are located. As much as LA dominates "pop" culture, the cultural capital of the US remains NYC. It is the best place to be for underground culture, subculture, innovative and creative culture and pushing the envelope. It is not "culture" to shop at Target or to grab a latte at Starbucks. As much as people criticize a place like NYC, it is one of those rare places on the planet where people who think beyond the ordinary can gather and create. There are tiny communities like this in other cities, perhaps larger ones in SF, Chicago, Miami and LA, but NYC is still the American hub of "fringe" and fringe, marginalized people, push our civilization further. The middle-american, middle-class, consumer (sheep) is not moving us forward, he is just absorbing what used to be edgy and turning it into oatmeal.

Sorry for the pseudo-marxist rant, but there is a Big, BIG difference between culture and Culture.

[Guest]

I totally agree with dsgitlin that exurban "towne center" sprawl is horrible, but some people like that lifestyle, wasteful, lifeless, and banal as it may be. I aspire to live in Chicago somewhere down the road, but if a friend would prefer Gurnee, I can't begrudge him that. Well, I can privately, but no sense in ranting about the banality of exurbia. Suburbia isn't necessarily bad, though. I grew up in the northwest suburbs, which have more than their fair share of affected-added-E strip malls, but also good public and private schools, and railroad service so that you can reach the city easily. There doesn't have to be shame associated with suburban living. Then again, we're talking separate beasts here with respect to suburbs and exurbs.

I'm glad you noticed the distinction. I'm no huge fan of suburbs either, but it's not that they don't have their place, because they do. As populations grew, suburbs became begrudingly necessary. But exurbs and McMansions and the corresponding waste? Bad, bad, bad. Even worse? A new trend in planned urban/rural communities. That is, building phony town(e) squares in the middle of cornfields and pretending it's completely normal to live on what is basically a movie set while pretending you're in a thriving, cultural, urban square. But instead of Joe's (or Larry, or Jean, or whatever) Espresso, you have Starbucks. Instead of Rick's Ice Cream, it's Cold Stone. And instead of something original, organic and worthwhile, you have corporate-designed and corporate-approved domestic living arrangements. It's just so sad.

Spoken like a true lib, huh?

Do you have any books on New Urbanism? Suburban Nation is interesting. The authors designed Seaside, Florida, and though they rightfully chide everything that's wrong with modern suburban and exurban development--lack of tree-lined roads, roaads that are too wide, cul-de-sacs that aren't necessary, so on--their own creation, which was supposed to be a real and organic city unlike the "movie set" subdivisions you described, literally was a movie set for The Truman Show. It's hard to just build a city from nothing.

Oh, and McMansions are the worst. Tacky nouveau riche crap. What's really sad is that in Hinsdale, a very nice western suburb of Chicago, all these tasteful and beautiful old houses are being renovated or outright razed, with these gaudy half McMansion/half real mansion things coming up that are so ostentatiously big that there's no yard left. The houses just go up to the curbs and lot lines, practically. The perils of having more money than you know what to do with, I guess. My inner conflict is that as ridiculously overwrought and aesthetically horrifying as I find these Frankenstein's monsters of residences to be, I don't suppose it's my place not to tell them not to.